Elite: Harmless - Karma System aka "be the Tamagotchi" - FRESH SALT, MINED RIGHT HERE

[imski]

And now they are trying to fix that design flaw with a karma system. The great acceptance of this tells me it will propably happen, but i am also very certain that griefing/ganking in ED will not change, unless
FD really manages it the first time to surprise me with a technically mature system. Yes Verminstar you are alos right that other games have a lot more consequences for that sort of gameplay. But that is
how the game was designed from day1. Also agree that it is, till this day, not a finished product. About the "no consequences" for beeing a criminal in open - did you ever take a taste of it? For some
reason the common opinion seems to be that a player killer will not face ANY consequences. For a single kill, of a nub player, that is true, and i am seriously missing some "whelp protection". For open, there´d
be various ways to get this done without a karma system. But if you start to attack players with higher combat ranks they will try to hunt you, wings will come at you, and you´ll be the mouse in the cat and mouse
game soon and have to live with it. For that of course the criminal has to be so honest and play in open most of the time, and not combat log. Take the ability for griefers to play in solo for a certain
periode, or punish them with death on combat logging, if you are missing suggestions from my side. Payback of insurance money and bounty to the griefed if the griefer is hunted down by anyone, could
be an option too. So again, no i am NOT against punishing of griefers, as it is permanently being misunderstood all over the thread. if i myself would be afraid of any consequences, i´d not play in open.
In open everything can have a consequence, and some of that includes death and re-buy screen. Still so many having a hard time accepting that. The only horrified i can see around is those that
are afraid the game will go on as it is.

The start of the discussion did exactly as intended, loads of popcorn for such a little box of salt



Yup thats where i stopped listening to Ziggy, entirely missing the point. Do not give a damn if the whole universe hunts me and tries to kill me. I enjoy the show.

The Karma system is so people don't avoid open because of pewpew jockey's insisting on making newbies their content. Also as it stands PK'ers suffer no consequences for attacking and killing members of their own pilots federation (which all players are members of).

Basically we're all part of a guild and PK'ers are ganking guild mates when it comes to in game lore. There should be consequences.

 

[Mohrgan]

For the most part, players in E|D seem willing to accept the repercussions of their gaming style. Well, as long as there isn't any. The proposed Karma system would track a players long term actions not immediate actions. This allows for peeps to go off the rails once in a while, but not get hit by the train.

The question to the OP is; If you are willing to play half the bad guy, why are you unwilling to accept the second half, the results of your activity? Being free to murder, has always had the result of gaining a bounty for doing so. The proposed changes wouldn't alter that 'action = reaction' equation. It would just change the values around some. Let the Reaction have the same weight as the Action. You are free to play how you want, then as is now, you only have to accept the results. To get the weights correct there must be some 'value' added to the Reaction side of the equation.

I'm going to suggest that being afraid of a karma system is like being afraid of playing in open. As a criminal one should expect the pressure from the long arm of the law. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

 

[SkipRat]

Dealing with Griefer/Ganker behaviour (regardless of target), is the bane of most MMOs. Some have tried a trial by peers solution, others have tried rebalancing combat or using temporary immortality after respawn. In ED though, none of these approaches is likely to work well overall nor address the underlying issues.

People's attitudes are the underlying problem, the idea that they should be able to get away with any kind of behaviour and not pay appropriate consequences for that behaviour. This more applies to the Griefers and Gankers than anyone else, there is no place for such behaviour in an Open World environment such as Elite. FD do not need to create "safe harbours" which effectively limit the gameplay of anyone who is not interested in PvP, they need to ensure appropriate penalties are applied to players who initiate/precipitate excessively anti-social PvP behaviours. There was apparently originally going to be Galaxy wide bounties but for some reason FD chose not to persist with that approach.

As Sandro says in his post yesterday, the Karma system might be just part of the final solution they eventually select.

FD probably assumed that most CMDRs would exhibit a modicum of common sense and restraint wrt initiating criminal behaviours against other CMDRs. They may have been a bit naïve in this regard, but the fault squarely lies with the CMDRs who habitually cross the invisible line rather than FD themselves. FD are only to blame in so far as touting ED as an MMO in the first place.

But people's attitudes won't change, so FD will have to come up with the right mechanics to make the game better for everyone.

 

[lenna]

But people's attitudes won't change, so FD will have to come up with the right mechanics to make the game better for everyone.

That will almost certainly mean upsetting certain PvPers regardless of what they do.

To quote a famous politician "You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time". This is one of those cases where FD will never be able to please everyone, and IMO they would be wrong to try to.

 

[ranje]

For the most part, players in E|D seem willing to accept the repercussions of their gaming style. Well, as long as there isn't any. The proposed Karma system would track a players long term actions not immediate actions. This allows for peeps to go off the rails once in a while, but not get hit by the train.

The question to the OP is; If you are willing to play half the bad guy, why are you unwilling to accept the second half, the results of your activity? Being free to murder, has always had the result of gaining a bounty for doing so. The proposed changes wouldn't alter that 'action = reaction' equation. It would just change the values around some. Let the Reaction have the same weight as the Action. You are free to play how you want, then as is now, you only have to accept the results. To get the weights correct there must be some 'value' added to the Reaction side of the equation.

I'm going to suggest that being afraid of a karma system is like being afraid of playing in open. As a criminal one should expect the pressure from the long arm of the law. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Seems not to have gotten you that this is not the case, and the reason not beeing friend of a karma system is not fear of punishment, or consequences. i welcome consequences to these actions, just not in the way of the intended karma based system.
But the suggested idea seems like a very helpless act from the devs to deal with the problem they never really had on their list for a long time. I already pointed out that i see the problems elsewhere, in particular the complexity and the many cases that
it will not be able to adress.

You already named one other big flaw, you can still go off the rails with a karma system in place. It also does not prevent all the "self created holes" from FD to be abused by those that are purely trolling and do not care about any consequences at all.
But there is many others, as people on reddit have already pointed out. Let´s just watch what happens and if frontier places another shot into their own legs, or maybe not this time. So maybe it would force some perma-gankers to be a bit less agressive in between, eventually even put a stop to the really ganks like firing at stations. But it will still be a patchwork solution with holes.

And how would "action same weight as reaction" look like in your opinion...let me guess... the killer has to pay the whole bill, be chased around the entire galaxy, and be unable to dock anywhere, and if he does it again he gets a ban. And if he still does it the
police comes to visit his house and takes him away to fd´s special prison, soon established in the tower of London. ^^

Can only hear ppl repeating that what i want to do with this post is mostly to be able to get away with whatever i want to do with no consequences. Interesting, but i have nowhere asked for that but it seems to be common practice here
to just assume, instead of read. My personal opinion that the karma system is a failure, and that there would be better ways to archive the same, remains overheard. He does not like it = he is most likely one of those evil griefers = the karma system MUST therefore be a good thing as he seems to not like it. It is getting very one sided...

 

[SkipRat]

That will almost certainly mean upsetting certain PvPers regardless of what they do.

To quote a famous politician "You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time". This is one of those cases where FD will never be able to please everyone, and IMO they would be wrong to try to.

I am fully aware not everyone will like it. Tough, but if making the game better means upsetting a few players that only care for themselves... Then so be it.

 

[ranje]

That will almost certainly mean upsetting certain PvPers regardless of what they do.

To quote a famous politician "You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time". This is one of those cases where FD will never be able to please everyone, and IMO they would be wrong to try to.

Very well... he does not only read behind the lines, he seems to be the first who understands what i´m actually on about....


Not every change makes the game better. We should have learned something from FD over the time...

 

[CMDR ANCALAGON]

Thousands of words and angry rants dedicated to the need for a CnP to save the game from ruin, and once someone hints that it may actually happen, the result is thousands of words and angry rants...

 

[EddyRockSteady]

Thousands of words and angry rants dedicated to the need for a CnP to save the game from ruin, and once someone hints that it may actually happen, the result is thousands of words and angry rants...

Yeah, agree.

Everyone would be well advised to SU and at least wait until phase 1 is implemented and THEN critique as needed, unless of course the intent is to attempt to bury the entire idea under a cacophony of moans..........

Thankfully that won't happen, burying by shouting, that is. Karma always comes a'knockin'.

 

[SkipRat]

Seems not to have gotten you that this is not the case, and the reason not beeing friend of a karma system is not fear of punishment, or consequences. i welcome consequences to these actions, just not in the way of the intended karma based system.
But the suggested idea seems like a very helpless act from the devs to deal with the problem they never really had on their list for a long time. I already pointed out that i see the problems elsewhere, in particular the complexity and the many cases that
it will not be able to adress.

You already named one other big flaw, you can still go off the rails with a karma system in place. It also does not prevent all the "self created holes" from FD to be abused by those that are purely trolling and do not care about any consequences at all.
But there is many others, as people on reddit have already pointed out. Let´s just watch what happens and if frontier places another shot into their own legs, or maybe not this time. So maybe it would force some perma-gankers to be a bit less agressive in between, eventually even put a stop to the really ganks like firing at stations. But it will still be a patchwork solution with holes.

And how would "action same weight as reaction" look like in your opinion...let me guess... the killer has to pay the whole bill, be chased around the entire galaxy, and be unable to dock anywhere, and if he does it again he gets a ban. And if he still does it the
police comes to visit his house and takes him away to fd´s special prison, soon established in the tower of London. ^^

Can only hear ppl repeating that what i want to do with this post is mostly to be able to get away with whatever i want to do with no consequences. Interesting, but i have nowhere asked for that but it seems to be common practice here
to just assume, instead of read. My personal opinion that the karma system is a failure, and that there would be better ways to archive the same, remains overheard. He does not like it = he is most likely one of those evil griefers = the karma system MUST therefore be a good thing as he seems to not like it. It is getting very one sided...

For all your words, it's still just all about you and how unfair having the beginnings of a functioning C&P and karma system is.

 

[babelfisch]

Seems not to have gotten you that this is not the case, and the reason not beeing friend of a karma system is not fear of punishment, or consequences. i welcome consequences to these actions, just not in the way of the intended karma based system.
But the suggested idea seems like a very helpless act from the devs to deal with the problem they never really had on their list for a long time. I already pointed out that i see the problems elsewhere, in particular the complexity and the many cases that
it will not be able to adress.

You already named one other big flaw, you can still go off the rails with a karma system in place. It also does not prevent all the "self created holes" from FD to be abused by those that are purely trolling and do not care about any consequences at all.
But there is many others, as people on reddit have already pointed out. Let´s just watch what happens and if frontier places another shot into their own legs, or maybe not this time. So maybe it would force some perma-gankers to be a bit less agressive in between, eventually even put a stop to the really ganks like firing at stations. But it will still be a patchwork solution with holes.

And how would "action same weight as reaction" look like in your opinion...let me guess... the killer has to pay the whole bill, be chased around the entire galaxy, and be unable to dock anywhere, and if he does it again he gets a ban. And if he still does it the
police comes to visit his house and takes him away to fd´s special prison, soon established in the tower of London. ^^

Can only hear ppl repeating that what i want to do with this post is mostly to be able to get away with whatever i want to do with no consequences. Interesting, but i have nowhere asked for that but it seems to be common practice here
to just assume, instead of read. My personal opinion that the karma system is a failure, and that there would be better ways to archive the same, remains overheard. He does not like it = he is most likely one of those evil griefers = the karma system MUST therefore be a good thing as he seems to not like it. It is getting very one sided...

I think you don't even know how a karma system could look like, given that most of your criticism was based on made up points

 

[ranje]

For all your words, it's still just all about you and how unfair having the beginnings of a functioning C&P and karma system is.

FUNCTIONING... haha...don´t get silly... it will just not work. Let´s wait it out.

And yet, you see just what you want to see. Can´t help that.

- - - Updated - - -

I think you don't even know how a karma system could look like, given that most of your criticism was based on made up points

you will see how made up they are, if such a thing ever comes. read the original post on reddit for the flaws and problems, too. I have not even named most of the problems within the system as it was suggested, just
a few. Seems rather you are the one who is unable to imagine it... i can very well, and fd is known for picking green fruits. So i expect we get a very ill-conceived system.

 

[lenna]

Very well... he does not only read behind the lines, he seems to be the first who understands what i´m actually on about....

Not every change makes the game better. We should have learned something from FD over the time...

Would improving crime and punishment in such a way as to curtail certain PvP behaviours in Open actually improve the game? Short answer, yes - at least from FDs perspective of trying to encourage more players to play Open on a regular basis.

Will such changes affect people's in-game behaviours? Debatable.

Will such changes encourage people like myself to engage in Open? Doubtful.

Will any such changes upset some PvPers? Almost certainly yes, regardless of what is done. IMO Open would be better off without such players.

 

[Kaltern]

Bottom line, more people want this than don't, therefore it's the right decision. And we will adapt. Probably find more things to complain about... that's the nature of running a multiplayer open world game.

 

[ranje]

of course most people want this, because the game does not encourage people to pvp, as there is no reward in it. Yet a not so small part of the player base does play pvp, some of those are the most supportive members
of the community. The people that hate pvp can not understand the people who do it, and wish for a game without them, as to them they are only a nuisance and they´d of course be better off without them. They ignore
the fact that this game from the start was advertised as an open world where you can choose whatever career you want, and some careers might interfere with those of others in a "unpleasing" way. It is all part of the game.
Most take it too serious.

 

[SkipRat]

FUNCTIONING... haha...don´t get silly... it will just not work. Let´s wait it out.

And yet, you see just what you want to see. Can´t help that.

And there we have it.

I never said it will work or not... Just the beginnings of one...

And beginnings, doesn't mean complete or perfect.

 

[DefiledDragon]

Talking about what a fd dev recently "dropped" on reddit...
...snip

Eve online is considered to be the most cutthroat gank fest in online gaming and yet it's own system of sec status and punishment for gankers is the harshest I've ever seen. You could literally end up banished from anything other than lowsec/nullsec. By comparison, what Sandro is suggesting is standing in the corner with the naughty hat on for five minutes.

 

[babelfisch]

you will see how made up they are, if such a thing ever comes. read the original post on reddit for the flaws and problems, too. I have not even named most of the problems within the system as it was suggested, just
a few. Seems rather you are the one who is unable to imagine it... i can very well, and fd is known for picking green fruits. So i expect we get a very ill-conceived system.

Maybe you missed it, but Sandro didn't present a fully functional system but just engaged in some public brainstorming. Of course you'll find problems and flaws in it. On the bolded part, nobody suggested a system yet. You are making your points up again.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Most take it too serious.

You mean they create a hyperbolic thread about the doom and gloom of accountability?

 

[lenna]

You mean they create a hyperbolic thread about the doom and gloom of accountability?

There is a difference between taking things too serious and recognising that certain behaviours should never be considered acceptable regardless of the environment.

MMOs and Social Media have created (directly or indirectly) certain kinds of sick mentality that need to be dealt with. If ED is the first title to do so effectively then well done FD.