Elite: Harmless - Karma System aka "be the Tamagotchi" - FRESH SALT, MINED RIGHT HERE

[thirstyfish]

It was just a play on words dude. I didn't know the title was such a sensitive topic.

Then keep in mind that tone is notoriously difficult to decipher via text. I am not about to go trolling through your previous posts to see if I can gain some context for what you post.

And this play on words is thrown around by some members of the "Pvp owns open"/"open is the one true mode" crowd. Any use is erroneous.

 

[Smecca is BMFE]

Then keep in mind that tone is notoriously difficult to decipher via text. I am not about to go trolling through your previous posts to see if I can gain some context for what you post.

And this play on words is thrown around by some members of the "Pvp owns open"/"open is the one true mode" crowd. Any use is erroneous.

Gotcha boss. No harm no foul

Well, looks like it's about time for this thread to end. It's not going anywhere and it's not staying on topic.

Could we all settle on a couple points here?
1) A properly implemented C&P would add depth, character and fun to the game. All should welcome it.
2) A poorly implemented C&P that obliterates any and all CMDR on CMDR pew pew would likely drive players away. All should shun it (let's be real, this is not in the games future)
3) The Open vs Solo/Group debates are old and boring

Let's see what FD bring to the table, and maybe even participate in what's bound to be the longest beta in beta history.

We can keep shouting at each other if y'all want

 

[Goose4291]

Gotcha boss. No harm no foul

Well, looks like it's about time for this thread to end. It's not going anywhere and it's not staying on topic.

Could we all settle on a couple points here?
1) A properly implemented C&P would add depth, character and fun to the game. All should welcome it.
2) A poorly implemented C&P that obliterates any and all CMDR on CMDR pew pew would likely drive players away. All should shun it (let's be real, this is not in the games future)
3) The Open vs Solo/Group debates are old and boring

Let's see what FD bring to the table, and maybe even participate in what's bound to be the longest beta in beta history.

We can keep shouting at each other if y'all want ��

1: Yes
2: Yes, and certain devs shouldnt have even floated the idea.
3: Yes

4: Just because someone doesnt share your exact same view doesnt mean theyre absolutely opposed to everthing youve wrote.

 

[thirstyfish]

Gotcha boss. No harm no foul

Well, looks like it's about time for this thread to end. It's not going anywhere and it's not staying on topic.

Could we all settle on a couple points here?
1) A properly implemented C&P would add depth, character and fun to the game. All should welcome it.
2) A poorly implemented C&P that obliterates any and all CMDR on CMDR pew pew would likely drive players away. All should shun it (let's be real, this is not in the games future)
3) The Open vs Solo/Group debates are old and boring

Let's see what FD bring to the table, and maybe even participate in what's bound to be the longest beta in beta history.

We can keep shouting at each other if y'all want 

Fair enough on all counts.

 

[[VR] Merkir]

Allow me to give you an alternative take on how things *could* be if FD implement a Karma & Full on C&P system:

- You kill a player cos .. you know .. reasons
- You kill more .. because .. reasons
- Before you know it your karma has dropped to the point that the game decides its going to up the difficulty for you .. after all - you're desperate for a challenge
- Touring Federation space the police keep intercepting you ... with a wave of your hand they're dead.
- You're now wanted by the local systems ... including the surrounding systems.
- More police come and the odd bounty hunter ... pfft - your engineered ship can take it
- Before you know it you're an outlaw to the Federation ... they close the doors at large stations
- Your reputation with the Federation has taken a nose dive .. killed too many police & players now
- Checking the map .. what's this .. half of it is red to me !! Must fly carefully
- Shucks .. latest CG is in Federation space .. got to be careful here
- Still blow up players for .. ya know .. reasons
- Engineered ships start chasing me .. now it's getting hard
- Time to run .. but where .. all hate me .. I know .. the Empire !
- Safe in the Empire you take stock .. half the galaxy hates me; a death squad is on the look out; there's some pesky player-BHs who think they can have me .. and what's this ... An invite from a crime lord in the Federation - If I can make my way to Random place X they have a mission for me .. and maybe a juicy chain of them too !

Yup. A believable reaction for a believable game universe. Everything we DON'T have right now.

The only thing I'd add are mechanics for PvP bounty hunting. There should be galaxy-wide "Wanted Commander" Alerts to be able to hunt down and fight the most notorious of criminals when they appear in non-anarchies. PvPers complain about lack of PvP, lack of context for PvP, lack of reasons for PvP. Here it is.

All brought about by a well designed Karma (notoriety ranking scale) system plus C&P&R system, which I've outlined in other posts:

Spoiler

I see a lot of people, Sandro included, saying that Karma should only be for reportable offences or actions that are "bad for the game". IMO that would be a huge missed opportunity. I suggest that FDev needs to see that the karma system, which some people have already labelled an honour or notoriety ranking system, is a very good way to introduce new play styles and archetypes into the game. Players would be able to roleplay as a baddy or a goody, moving up or down the karma/honour/notoriety ranking system. Then, a well designed new C&P&R system would bring much needed gameplay consequences and rewards which manifest in-game in a variety of fun, exciting and challenging ways, e.g.:

- changes to in-game information seen by other commanders
- other commanders hunting you down, perhaps travelling across the bubble to do so (hopefully more fun for PvPers)
- new mission types catering for all levels of karma/honour/notoriety, good and bad (potentially also affecting karma?)
- black-market type systems, starports, engineers opening up
- changes to the way system security react to you depending on your notoriety, actions, location, etc. Eg. You need to run the gauntlet in high-secs.
- rewards for daring/risky play
- changes to docking permissions
- changes to insurance
- changes to rebuy
- changes to bounties/fines
- lots more I'm sure

If karma is only for reportable offenses, then IMO the vision is way too small. You would need to introduce a second new honour/notoriety ranking scale to obtain many of the gameplay features described above. Why go to the added complexity? Bad behaviour is bad behaviour. Too many people say it needs to be treated differently. Why? If there are consequences in place, it doesn't. Treat it on the same ranking scale for consistency and simplicity, with the magnitudes of karma/honour/notoriety gain (or loss) commensurate with the action.

Griefers and hobo murderers will go down the karma/notoriety scale much more quickly, especially those that are used to killing hundreds of clean players a week. And this is where a well designed new C&P&R system comes in, to react to the player's current karma (and actions, location, etc.) to make it very difficult for them to continue their griefing activities. I expect they and the griefers would be the ones that the Pilot's Federation put on galaxy-wide "Wanted" alerts so that player bounty hunters can hunt them down. The griefers and murder hobos may even like that (I have no idea - don't understand the mind set).

Genuine outlaws and pirates would roam within the same karma/honour/notoriety system but higher on the ranking scale. Pirates may need a new in-game mechanic or two so that pirating doesn't affect karma but killing clean commanders does.

Personally, I wouldn't make any distinction between crimes committed against a player or NPC. But I'm a huge proponent of verisimilitude. I think the game would be so much better if the galaxy was believable. Sorry FDev but it's not the least bit believable right now. (Politicians, CEOs, celebrities all hiring commanders to take them on sight seeing tours in a galaxy where murder hobos kill them on sight for no in-game reason and with no meaningful repercussions... ugh... in-game politicians, you have failed utterly).

I also believe that all valid play styles could gain from this system if designed well. The PvP community will gain lots of new targets, ie. wanted players - those that want to roleplay as outlaws. The non-PvPers should be safer with a new credible C&P system. All will gain from potential new rewards based on karma.

MOST IMPORTANTLY, we all gain because the galaxy will at last "feel" right. Sorry FDev, but your galaxy at the moment is all out of whack, what with griefers planting themselves at starting systems, CGs and engineers, tallying up their player kills for no apparent reason and with no consequences. It's quite bizarre and unworthy of the Elite franchise.


TL;DR: Karma should not be limited to reportable offences. Use it also as an honour/notoriety ranking scale which, alongside a new C&P&R system, delivers a believable galaxy where repeated player actions trigger consequences which are fun and challenging, opening up exciting new play-styles and archetypes.

Spoiler

Sandro, I just wanted to say that your Karma system has a lot of potential. With such a system you will have the ability to add infractions (negative karma) and prestige (positive karma) triggered by in-game player actions that up until now has been severely lacking. If done well, it's a huge opportunity to improve the game in many areas:

1. A credible C&P system to improve the logical consistency and verisimilitude of the game.
2. Griefers and murder hobos will eventually suffer consequences for their actions.
3. It allows player-driven gameplay and roleplay that currently doesn't exist.

It is the latter which interests me in particular. Here's what I just wrote on another thread...

----snip----
I would love to become an Outlaw, but up until now there's no in-game support for this. So what do some people do instead? They grief, they gank, they become hobo murderers. There's no incentive for me to do that now because there's no consequences and no danger. It's mindless killing at other player's expense with absolutely NO IN GAME REASON to do it. It's relegated to the douches and sociopaths.

I want Open to be MUCH MORE DANGEROUS. I want to be an outlaw. I want to have a karma rank of Notorious, or Infamous. I want missions that ask me to raid into a high sec system for BIG REWARDS, outlaw level booty, knowing that at any second I could get killed by either the security forces or other players who see my notoriety.

This is what the Karma system has the ability to provide. Real player driven gameplay and roleplay, supported by new rank and new missions.

It's a huge opportunity for FDev, an opportunity that up until now has been lost.
----snip----


I don't see the Karma system as preventing clean PKs. It will curtail it, sure, and that's a very needed thing. Obviously the 0.1% of players that are the griefers and hobo murderers won't like it. Good. If a hobo murderer has as his aim to make 10000 player kills, mostly baby seal clubbing, with absolutely no in-game reason to do it other than they want to spoil other player's fun, then good riddance to that douch-baggery. Let them play as outlaws under a REAL game which the karma system has the potential to provide, where they might experience some danger and repercussions for a change.

This thread has shown the griefers' true colours. As soon as there's any talk about a real C&P system - a credible system like Sandro's Karma system - they post en-masse to try to prevent it, or to suggest alternatives that allow them to continue their unlimited, risk free, no consequence PKing anti-social behaviour. The irony of it is, they might actually like a karma system better. It's all in the implementation.


Edit: I should add that with a Karma system in place I'd be much more likely to want to take part in what was previously non-consensual PvP, and possibly even instigate it myself (using in-game outlaw support through the Karma system). I'd gladly die to gankers and griefers even in an unarmed explorer if I knew they would suffer some consequences, even if it's just a small drop in their Karma.

 

[Gunnet]

It may be best at this moment for you to outline what you think undesirable behaviour is and how a karma system would be best over a C&P system to deal with it.


EDIT:
The obvious 2 are:

- Ramming, which leads to the destruction of another player, which is murder and is covered by a C&P framework.
- Blowing up a weaker ship, which is murder, and again covered by a C&P framework.

The actual response by the game, incidentally, can be tailored according to who the victim was - Players elicit a stronger response from the game (for example) than NPCs, but both still alter the game as murder is not really acceptable in any modern society.

Any more ?

My idea of undesirable behaviour isn't really relevant here. For this purpose they're only the behaviours Frontier identifies as harmful to the game.

If the system has much stronger penalties for griefing players than it does for killing NPCs, then it's basically just the separate C&P and karma systems under one name. I don't have any objection to the whole thing being called C&P, as long as the player-player facet of it is functionally capable identifying and removing anti-social behaviour.

 

[Faybs]

That's just wrong. I've seen loads of NPC's on planet surfaces (so they bought Horizons) and sporting various paint jobs (so they buy cosmetics).

They buy them at the employee store using company credit, it's all a big scam to reduce their wages. NPCs need to unionize.

 

[Faybs]

Allow me to give you an alternative take on how things *could* be if FD implement a Karma & Full on C&P system:

- You kill a player cos .. you know .. reasons
- You kill more .. because .. reasons
- Before you know it your karma has dropped to the point that the game decides its going to up the difficulty for you .. after all - you're desperate for a challenge
- Touring Federation space the police keep intercepting you ... with a wave of your hand they're dead.
- You're now wanted by the local systems ... including the surrounding systems.
- More police come and the odd bounty hunter ... pfft - your engineered ship can take it
- Before you know it you're an outlaw to the Federation ... they close the doors at large stations
- Your reputation with the Federation has taken a nose dive .. killed too many police & players now
- Checking the map .. what's this .. half of it is red to me !! Must fly carefully
- Shucks .. latest CG is in Federation space .. got to be careful here
- Still blow up players for .. ya know .. reasons
- Engineered ships start chasing me .. now it's getting hard
- Time to run .. but where .. all hate me .. I know .. the Empire !
- Safe in the Empire you take stock .. half the galaxy hates me; a death squad is on the look out; there's some pesky player-BHs who think they can have me .. and what's this ... An invite from a crime lord in the Federation - If I can make my way to Random place X they have a mission for me .. and maybe a juicy chain of them too !

That's how it should be working. It's realistic, doesn't turn the galaxy into a kindergarten, low effort griefing should decrease drastically, and people who get griefed anyway know that the perp's life just got that little bit more difficult.

 

[Dialectic]

1: Yes
2: Yes, and certain devs shouldnt have even floated the idea.
3: Yes

4: Just because someone doesnt share your exact same view doesnt mean theyre absolutely opposed to everthing youve wrote.

Agreed

 

[Minonian]

Then why did you type this: "Mobius takes the dangerous out of Elite Dangerous."? Hmmm? Why else would you make that comment?

You used what I call the "title argument," and the true explanation of the title renders it moot.

they still trying to use, the good ole elite supposed 2 be dangerous because it's name is dangerous "reasoning"?

I guess they just out of ideas.