Elite: Harmless - Karma System aka "be the Tamagotchi" - FRESH SALT, MINED RIGHT HERE

[jasonbarron]

It's because the PF expects it's members to be civilized, especially between each other. If for no other reasons than money on re-buys. It's far from arbitrary. It shouldn't follow you into Anarchy systems. PvP'ers can save themselves by the proper setting of the 'Report Crimes' toggle.

All your concerns wrapped up nicely.

What if I'm pledged to another Power and want to protect a system, and by "protect" I mean through force of arms, irrespective of whether it's a combat vessel or Mostly Harmless trader aligned with an enemy?

That's just one thought as a for instance; if you want a karma system that's going to follow me around you'd best get serious about talking Fdev into scrapping PP, first.

 

[Johnb09]

Talking about what a fd dev recently "dropped" on reddit...

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/698b36/sandro_sammarco_lead_designer_talks_about/

It´s Mai and not the 1st of April, was my first thought.

So that is the plan...make open play the new solo coward mode, but now with people?

Karma System, or "behavior code" for CMDRs? Why still keep the "Dangerous" in the games title? It just is not what its going to be anymore in the future.
Maybe call it "the failed Elite: warm showers edition"?

PVP only "on demand" "Mememe i don´t wanna be herassed in my weak ship by stronger players, they must be punished...also those evil wings...and those
rammers...ohhhh those rammers! And all that abuse their time to * of somebody else in the game... we must teach them all to be GOOD PERSONS. Also we
will send them a free edition of the holy book...nono...we don´t want bullys in our game. Also we want a version of Quake without weapons, where we can
hug each other to death only!!! Exactly.

IMHO THE KARMA SYSTEM IS AN UTTERLY SAD IDEA!! A higher power to judge all our actions... punish certain play-styles...education by the devs. An open
universe...but with rules that apply everywhere? Sounds odd!

But maybe first....

Fix your gameplay. Fix your tons of bugs. Give the people something to fight for together. Give them content that is more interesting! And i don´t mean those
boring generation ships that seem so far very much alike, despite the voice acting with repetitive story. The Devs put a lot of time into a very slow paced story,
that does not really get everyone excited. Not like the instancing massacre around the salome event ...and so on. No, i don´t dislike the new content - but it is
too little too late. So far. And that is just one little reason why people do enjoy some anti-social game play. Asides...the game needs it, if it wants tor remain
Elite: "DANGEROUS". There is a group mode already to be save from any anti-social elements and ganks. If you want some excitement at the other hand, and
learn how to escape, fly evasive, evade danger, or even learn how to fight...that's open. I don´t like to see the new karma-gotchi CMDR.

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/8f/8fc1ca3c719455b43670ca7dd37387a25605baf19b094da17b305685cd0f02ca.jpg
​

Awww poor you gotta shovel for your buckets of salt maybe you can build castles if not you can ask mummy for new game awwww

 

[jasonbarron]

On the contrary, I think what he's describing here is a role, a *real* role, that someone can choose to play in the game. You want to be a criminal - then accept the consequences, play the role. You don't like them, don't do the crime. Even with that he provides an out, a way for that life of crime to be abandoned and for one to go back on the straight-and-narrow.

Edit: I will add that suggestions like this probably seem somewhat draconian since there aren't any gameplay-driven roles at all in this game now, so any change like this would perhaps seem punitive.

If the end result of bad karma is punishing the PKer with bankruptcy and loss of all modules for reaching the maximum negative value, essentially putting them back in a sidewinder, then you might as well just scrap the pretention right now and just say it for what it is; you want an end to all the PvP shenanigans, and you want Fdev to simply run them out of the game permanently. Because that's all this c&p/karma talk is with a majority of you guys--a pretention.

Fdev isn't stupid enough to punish the PvPer so harshly, irrespective of Sandro's leanings on the recent Reddit thread where he spoke to the subject.

- - - Updated - - -

All players can engage in PvE without directly affecting (possibly adversely) another player.

The same cannot be said for PvP.

The karma system seems to be very specifically designed to look at a player's behavioural trends and possibly introduce consequences.

The simple fact is you guys are on a mission to turn Open into Mobius and you have been given fresh wind in your sails to Sandro's recent remarks. What I see is a player who wants to use a ruleset to punish other players for playing in a manner he doesn't like, while unwilling to abide by the same rules himself. The only way I'm going to abide by a karma system is if it applies to everybody, regardless of whether they murder NPC's or players. I think it would be hysterical if every time the spray & pray PvEer "accidentally" tags security forces his karma takes a big hit. In fact, that would almost talk me into supporting it right there.

#npcshaverights2

 

[DaveB]

What if I'm pledged to another Power and want to protect a system, and by "protect" I mean through force of arms, irrespective of whether it's a combat vessel or Mostly Harmless trader aligned with an enemy?

That's just one thought as a for instance; if you want a karma system that's going to follow me around you'd best get serious about talking Fdev into scrapping PP, first.

I don't read anything out of any fdev source that way. I would think that under the same circumstances where you wouldn't get aggro from the cops for taking out an opposing cmdr that you wouldn't get bad karma either. If they are wanted or hostile and in your power's space I wouldn't see any karmic repercussions at all. On the other hand if they are are hostile and you're in their power's space, I can see you collecting a few "bad guy points" for starting the fight, but probably not as many as if you'd just popped Cmdr Random CleanSidey in either location.

 

[Kaa Mchorror]

All players can engage in PvE without directly affecting (possibly adversely) another player.

The same cannot be said for PvP.

The karma system seems to be very specifically designed to look at a player's behavioural trends and possibly introduce consequences.

PvE affects (possibly adversely) other players through the BGS. There is no reason PvE players should get a free pass to murder hundreds of soft targets.

 

[DaveB]

... The only way I'm going to abide by a karma system is if it applies to everybody, regardless of whether they murder NPC's or players.

#npcshaverights2

I can agree with you there. A solo-mode murderhobo who storms across the galaxy blowing up clean, non-hostile NPCs should have pretty much the same bad karma rating as one who did the same in open popping the same number of clean, hon-hostile cmdrs.

 

[NeilF]

For Crime & Consequences, certainly.

For karma, not so much - as karma would seem to be designed to deal with the inevitable conflict of play-styles between players - and, while Frontier control NPC behaviours, they cannot directly control players - hence a proposal that seems designed to discourage particular player behaviours through the introduction of consequences for engaging in them against other players.

Don't see much of a difference myself. If you're acting enough of a deush that the game can consider you need reigning in, why is that behaviour OK aimed at NPCs if not non-NPCs?

Deush behaviour should be bad no matter what.

Probably result in a better/more realistic in game outcome too. Why should the game allow you to act like a psycho to NPCs and not penalise you?

 

[Mohrgan]

What if I'm pledged to another Power and want to protect a system, and by "protect" I mean through force of arms, irrespective of whether it's a combat vessel or Mostly Harmless trader aligned with an enemy?

That's just one thought as a for instance; if you want a karma system that's going to follow me around you'd best get serious about talking Fdev into scrapping PP, first.

I understand that certain actions will be excused. If you meet an Hostile PP opponent the Notoriety system should not penalize you, much, for playing the game. Just as there should be no hit for actions taken in Anarchy systems. I can see no way around local criminality in these situations, but the Notoriety system should have it's own response to your action, separate from the C&P system.

Just as a note. Why would the Notoriety sys treat a criminal act differently than the C&P system? If you can grab a Bounty for dusting a clean PP opponent, why shouldn't your Notoriety take a hit? Because that would see game mechanics cancel themselves out. No one wants that. The Notoriety system would track the trend of your career and modify how the Galaxy responds to you. I can't see anyone not interested in that.

If no one uses the PP system, why concern yourself with it? Except to create scenarios intended to put a bad spin on in-game consequences.

P.S. You forget, if actions against NPC's are forgiven for the Spray-and-Pray PvE'er, it will be similarly forgiven for the Murder HoBo PvPer. Fair is Fair. The C&P system will punish for crimes against Factions. The Notoriety System will track trends in behaviors between PF Members.

I think you are right, in that FD won;t want to make the reaction of the Notoriety system too quick, or too heavy. Just because Forum Goers lean into the feature a bit, that doesn't mean FD will. Let the ideas flow, and FD will get the balance settled.

 

[Sunleader]

Said it before.
Punishment should be directly linked to the damage done plus a bit extra.

Only applied however if actually caught.


So Legacy Fine should be all Rebuy and Cargo destroyed or stolen by that player. +10%
Bounties should be set x10 of what they are right now.
And they should increase in range the higher they get (anarchy systems excepted)
So of you got 2 Million bounty you should be hunted in the entire bubble.

And Legacy fines should need to be paid regardless of where you respawn.
After all the victim players also have to pay the rebuy and cargo they lost no matter where they got killed!

 

[NeilF]

the karma system feels more like the pilot federations rules of conduct between members.

Possibly, or just a Pilots Federation rule of conduct full stop. Act like a psycho to CMDRs (or NPCs) there's penalties on the way... Don't see why there should be a real difference if your "target" is a CMDR or not...

 

[Chris Simon]

Said it before.
Punishment should be directly linked to the damage done plus a bit extra.

Only applied however if actually caught.


So Legacy Fine should be all Rebuy and Cargo destroyed or stolen by that player. +10%
Bounties should be set x10 of what they are right now.
And they should increase in range the higher they get (anarchy systems excepted)
So of you got 2 Million bounty you should be hunted in the entire bubble.

And Legacy fines should need to be paid regardless of where you respawn.
After all the victim players also have to pay the rebuy and cargo they lost no matter where they got killed!

Pretty solid. I am only a bit concern in the ways higher player bounties would be exploitable.

 

[Kaa Mchorror]

Said it before.
Punishment should be directly linked to the damage done plus a bit extra.

Only applied however if actually caught.


So Legacy Fine should be all Rebuy and Cargo destroyed or stolen by that player. +10%
Bounties should be set x10 of what they are right now.
And they should increase in range the higher they get (anarchy systems excepted)
So of you got 2 Million bounty you should be hunted in the entire bubble.

And Legacy fines should need to be paid regardless of where you respawn.
After all the victim players also have to pay the rebuy and cargo they lost no matter where they got killed!

As long as this applies to NPC's as well. Just so it's fair we will set the rebuy for them at the base cost.

I keep seeing all of these PvE commanders screaming that they want a realistic C&P but they don't want it to apply to NPC's. How is that realistic? It isn't.

 

[SpongeJim]

If the end result of bad karma is punishing the PKer with bankruptcy and loss of all modules for reaching the maximum negative value, essentially putting them back in a sidewinder, then you might as well just scrap the pretention right now and just say it for what it is; you want an end to all the PvP shenanigans, and you want Fdev to simply run them out of the game permanently. Because that's all this c&p/karma talk is with a majority of you guys--a pretention.

Fdev isn't stupid enough to punish the PvPer so harshly, irrespective of Sandro's leanings on the recent Reddit thread where he spoke to the subject.

Mm maybe I missed it in his post, but I don't see where he's saying hitting max negative karma means loss of ship. He does say this:

Worse case scenario the loss of ship/ships flown while committing said crimes.

If you want to be a bad guy in this game, then the bad guy should face the same risks of losings one ship or bank balance just like people who are trying to play within the law/rules of the game.

The way I interpreted that was, if they get *caught* while *voluntary* choosing to take the *risk* of going into a non-anarchy system with full negative karma, then this could happen. To me that's again just choosing to play the role and taking the risks that come with it.

 

[Mohrgan]

This trend to raise the NPC's up to the ranks of the Pilot's Federation, is just another attempt to de-legitimatize a Notoriety system. The thought being; "If this system can be turned to hurt the PvE'ers, they will shout it down for us". Just as Crimes against NPC's/Factions will be covered by the C&P system. Either, as we have it now, or in an improved state. Crimes against Members of the PF will be tracked and responded to by the PF.

Just as there should be consequences for flying without a shield, there should be consequences for criminal activity. Those consequences should be fitting, and allow for playing a game in a cut throat galaxy, but there should most certainly be consequences.

 

[Kaa Mchorror]

This trend to raise the NPC's up to the ranks of the Pilot's Federation, is just another attempt to de-legitimatize a Notoriety system. The thought being; "If this system can be turned to hurt the PvE'ers, they will shout it down for us". Just as Crimes against NPC's/Factions will be covered by the C&P system. Either, as we have it now, or in an improved state. Crimes against Members of the PF will be tracked and responded to by the PF.

Just as there should be consequences for flying without a shield, there should be consequences for criminal activity. Those consequences should be fitting, and allow for playing a game in a cut throat galaxy, but there should most certainly be consequences.

So consequences but only if it's human? Yeah that sounds realistic.

 

[NeilF]

Said it before.
Punishment should be directly linked to the damage done plus a bit extra.

Only applied however if actually caught.


So Legacy Fine should be all Rebuy and Cargo destroyed or stolen by that player. +10%
Bounties should be set x10 of what they are right now.
And they should increase in range the higher they get (anarchy systems excepted)
So of you got 2 Million bounty you should be hunted in the entire bubble.

And Legacy fines should need to be paid regardless of where you respawn.
After all the victim players also have to pay the rebuy and cargo they lost no matter where they got killed!

Bounties are a poor way to enforce C&P/karma IMHO.

Who knows you have a 5mCR bounty? The CMDR in the weaponless exploration Asp you're currently blowing up for the lolz before your bounty increases to 5.5mCR? Great!


There's more practical and subtle ways to penalise toxic behaviour that don't mean creating a pointless league table of bounties. I'd suggest if you're hell bent on habitually, illegally destroying other ships:-
- More and more stations slowly refusing you docking permission..
- More and more systems slowly refusing you permits to jump there...
- You being highlighted on any other CMDRs scanners as having a significantly poor C&P reputation...
- Having a permanent bounty no matter where you are...

...would soon rein in negative behaviour in a more logical/interesting way.

 

[Mohrgan]

So consequences but only if it's human? Yeah that sounds realistic.

There are consequences for crimes against NPC's/Factions. Fines, Bounties all of that. Your relationship with a Faction can range from Hostile to Allied. Hostiles get no missions, Allied gets a ton. I expect an improvement to the C&P system to come along with what ever Notoriety system is developed. We can discuss how that system should work. Including making the C&P system have teeth. But, that doesn't mean that the PF has to get involved.

The Pilot's Federation is only concerned with it's membership. Let's say that the PF is always concerned with murder, and doing so would dent your Notoriety. But why should good clean NPC piracy put you in the sin bin? Just because insisting on NPC's and PC being treated the same would worry some PvE'ers, in your mind, hopefully gaining your cause a chorus of wailing PvE'ers. Personally I could easily accept the Notoriety system tracking my actions against NPC's. Staying clean is easy.

But, I can see that, in order to get the potential out of Open Mode, something has to reign in the HoBo's. A system where crimes can be wiped so easily would never have the teeth to bring the balance needed in an open environment. There has to be a method to give a Murderer pause. A moment to consider if that act is worth the risk. Your side wants a lawless state to prevail everywhere, and to be able to brush off all crimes as irrelevant. We can see what the current philosophy has brought to open, let's balance things out between those on the Straight and Narrow, and those that take the criminal's path. Right now the risk is all on the Clean side of the slate.

Are you afraid to face consequences for what your Commander does? You only risk pixels.

 

[Zambrick]

Not hounding. Making the people who are purposefully griefing for no reason are being held to the same risks that everyone else currently dealing with .

If the consequences for your actions are less harsh on you than it is the victim, then what is the incentive to stop or even think about the consequences?

If your in game MO is to do nothing but ruin other peoples time and run players out of open or the game entirely, then why shouldn't the punishment for said actions be the same? Yes it should be easy to be a criminal, but that is the benefit of being a criminal. The potential consequences to said activity is why its considered a criminal activity.

That will make Criminal actually be criminals in the game. They will have to be sneaky. They have to make criminal decisions.
They would have to decide, do I want to spend 3 billion on a killer Military vessel and possibly lose it or do I want a smaller, faster, cheaper, and easily replaceable ship?
Do I want to be a nation unto myself and hope to survive in my huge ship or do I want to get 4 of my buddies all flying smaller faster cheaper ships to help in my enterprise.
Am I willing to camp a CG system in my multi billion dollar ship and risk losing it just to grief, or do I want to organize a bunch of my other criminal buddies and lay siege to the system in cheaper ships.

It would force people who grief to make a serious decision and would allow Pirates to act like real Pirates. Right now flying around in unkillable death machines attacking container ships and blowing them away is considered "fun" but only by one side of the conflict. If you get interdicted in anything other than a ship fitted for combat by a ship fitted for combat, then its a foregone conclusion. You have lost. At worst you die and at best you might escape, but you will never win that fight.

 

[Kaa Mchorror]

There are consequences for crimes against NPC's/Factions. Fines, Bounties all of that. Your relationship with a Faction can range from Hostile to Allied. Hostiles get no missions, Allied gets a ton. I expect an improvement to the C&P system to come along with what ever Notoriety system is developed. We can discuss how that system should work. Including making the C&P system have teeth. But, that doesn't mean that the PF has to get involved.

The Pilot's Federation is only concerned with it's membership. Let's say that the PF is always concerned with murder, and doing so would dent your Notoriety. But why should good clean NPC piracy put you in the sin bin? Just because insisting on NPC's and PC being treated the same would worry some PvE'ers, in your mind, hopefully gaining your cause a chorus of wailing PvE'ers. Personally I could easily accept the Notoriety system tracking my actions against NPC's. Staying clean is easy.

But, I can see that, in order to get the potential out of Open Mode, something has to reign in the HoBo's. A system where crimes can be wiped so easily would never have the teeth to bring the balance needed in an open environment. There has to be a method to give a Murderer pause. A moment to consider if that act is worth the risk. Your side wants a lawless state to prevail everywhere, and to be able to brush off all crimes as irrelevant. We can see what the current philosophy has brought to open, let's balance things out between those on the Straight and Narrow, and those that take the criminal's path. Right now the risk is all on the Clean side of the slate.

Are you afraid to face consequences for what your Commander does? You only risk pixels.

You know as well as I do that crimes against NPC's/Factions are as big of a joke as crimes against commanders. As you said it's easy to stay clean so why are you so against Karma including NPC's.
You can try to dance around the issue all you want but it comes down to you want to punish humans because they hurt someones feels. Boo fraggling hoo.

I'm not afraid to face consequences, in fact I'm going to welcome it. I have never shot at anyone who didn't deserve it but if a PVElord version of Karma is introduced I will put on my black hat and club every seal I can find.

 

[Sunleader]

Pretty solid. I am only a bit concern in the ways higher player bounties would be exploitable.

As long as this applies to NPC's as well. Just so it's fair we will set the rebuy for them at the base cost.

I keep seeing all of these PvE commanders screaming that they want a realistic C&P but they don't want it to apply to NPC's. How is that realistic? It isn't.

Bounties are a poor way to enforce C&P/karma IMHO.

Who knows you have a 5mCR bounty? The CMDR in the weaponless exploration Asp you're currently blowing up for the lolz before your bounty increases to 5.5mCR? Great!


There's more practical and subtle ways to penalise toxic behaviour that don't mean creating a pointless league table of bounties. I'd suggest if you're hell bent on habitually, illegally destroying other ships:-
- More and more stations slowly refusing you docking permission..
- More and more systems slowly refusing you permits to jump there...
- You being highlighted on any other CMDRs scanners as having a significantly poor C&P reputation...
- Having a permanent bounty no matter where you are...

...would soon rein in negative behaviour in a more logical/interesting way.

Guys i said legacy fine.
Not bounty.

Legacy fine is only paid by the criminal after death in addition to his rebuy. Its not paid not as bounty.
The Bounty would be x10 so 50k instead of 5k per murder.
At least then we might actually see players reach the Bounties NPCs often have lol.

I at least doubt the any of the 500k bounty npcs really killed 100 ships