Not possible to outmaneuver high ranked NPC, agility rating has no meaning suddenly

[kiario]

OP, you are not complaining about NPC's. It's precisely the same against competent PvP players.

Because we are flying in a weightless vacuum with 6 axes of motion thrusters there's no question of staying behind anyone, ever. I couldn't stay behind a competently flown Lakon Type-9 in my g5 dirty enhanced drives Courier.

Ultimately, that's the game. Personally, like you, I would prefer it to be a little more artificially WWII but many players, for good reason, say it's already too unrealistically like an atmospheric flight model as it is.

What you can do, however, versus player or NPC, is limit their time on target. Basically their nose will be facing you most of the time but you can get it so it's facing you and missing.

I was at the CG last night facing skilled players in FdL and FAS in my Courier and making them miss (usually) for 20 to 25 mins while I eroded their titanic hit points.

And contrary to popular belief NPC's miss more than the better players, especially if using plasma against a small target employing lateral thrust.

My (fairly recently updated) circle-strafing thread might be of some assistance, o7:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...silver-s-Top-Tips-Beginner-s-Guide-VR-PvP-Vid

Yes I understand what you say. Thanks for the link. Maybe the simple solution is to reduce the agility of larger ships so that they can not keep their front at you all the time.
Larger ships should not be so easy to pivot aroudn their axis due to larger momentum.
And perhaps increase the turn rate and yaw quite much on the smallest ships.

For the maneuvers to work in your video I think you "need" to fly with assist on.
I only fly witth FA-OFF. And that type of strafing is harder because pitch thrusters appear to be much weaker with fa-off
Sure I can circle strafe an object with fa-off but higher ranked npc just stay put and pivot around their own axis therfore nullifying your advantage in a more agile ship.

 

[VR Murgle]

It's notable that the sidewinder is one of the slowest ships, and getting behind a... Python, for instance, can be difficult, as NPC's adopted the "fly backwards" technique two years ago. Then you have to consider how many pips you put in engines greatly affects your maneuverability.

Sidewinder is a great ship for taking out SLF, but easily the worst ship (excluding some dedicated transports) for combat in the game.

Wrong!

I've done a lot of combat in a Sidey and the only problem is the time to kill. Without NPC's to add some damage it just takes too long to destroy the larger ships. Oh and add enhanced thrusters and the Sidey is anything but slow, in fact I if have trouble staying behind my target in my combat Sidey it's because it's just too damn fast...

 

[kofeyh]

Yes I understand what you say. Thanks for the link. Maybe the simple solution is to reduce the agility of larger ships so that they can not keep their front at you all the time.

The AI is not infallible; they have poor yaw control, are predictable and will react to certain conditions. If you are in a smaller ship and you are head on, it'll be rough; because they will want to position to be head on. So make them work for it; if you are small, move. A lot. You essentially want them trying to turn inside out trying to get guns on. Most are running fixed weapons, so simply strafing (push down/ up/ left/ right) on thrusters to have them shoot where you were, not are.

AI are accurate little buggers, but they are predictable. You can elect not to be. lateral/ vertical thrusters make a huge difference because the AI isn't (contrary to opinion) entirely psychic. And they have the same limitations we do, with fixed weapons. Getting both AI and commanders to shoot at empty space, is about the most fun you can have.

 

[kiario]

The AI is not infallible; they have poor yaw control, are predictable and will react to certain conditions. If you are in a smaller ship and you are head on, it'll be rough; because they will want to position to be head on. So make them work for it; if you are small, move. A lot. You essentially want them trying to turn inside out trying to get guns on. Most are running fixed weapons, so simply strafing (push down/ up/ left/ right) on thrusters to have them shoot where you were, not are.

AI are accurate little buggers, but they are predictable. You can elect not to be. lateral/ vertical thrusters make a huge difference because the AI isn't (contrary to opinion) entirely psychic. And they have the same limitations we do, with fixed weapons. Getting both AI and commanders to shoot at empty space, is about the most fun you can have.

Nice tips. Thanks

 

[Truesilver]

Yes I understand what you say. Thanks for the link. Maybe the simple solution is to reduce the agility of larger ships so that they can not keep their front at you all the time.
Larger ships should not be so easy to pivot aroudn their axis due to larger momentum.
And perhaps increase the turn rate and yaw quite much on the smallest ships.

For the maneuvers to work in your video I think you "need" to fly with assist on.
I only fly witth FA-OFF. And that type of strafing is harder because pitch thrusters appear to be much weaker with fa-off
Sure I can circle strafe an object with fa-off but higher ranked npc just stay put and pivot around their own axis therfore nullifying your advantage in a more agile ship.

No problem. Actually in PvP, especially if gimballed, I'm often using the same techniques in the vid with FA-off. All thruster acceleration is the same or stronger with FA-off as FA-on, except for lateral deceleration which on most ships is massively better with FA-on.

You can see some more info about that in this thread...

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/329827-FA-On-vs-FA-Off-Data

... and also in my recent post in another thread here:

OK, I have been back to Windows Movie Maker, for science.

Here is my direct 21st February 2017 comparison of acceleration and deceleration, with Flight Assist On or Off, in my 631 mps iCourier with a medium weight build and g5 dirty enhanced drives. The full ship characteristics are in the spoiler:

Spoiler

http://i.imgur.com/CwytrRD.png

Here's the table. Note that I'm not here giving an acceleration value, just the time taken in seconds. The ratios are of course the same either way, only the means of expression is different:

INPUT	Flight Assist?	0-100 mps	100-200 mps	200-100 mps
Right	FA-On	3.3 secs	2.7 secs	0.8 secs
Right	FA-Off	2.7 secs	2.7 secs	3.4 secs
Up + Right	FA-On	2.8 secs	1.9 secs	0.8 secs
Up + Right	FA-Off	2.1 secs	1.9 secs	2.3 secs

NOTES

Note that the 200-100 decel figure was using reverse inputs, e.g. down + left.

There was no forwards/reverse motion in this phase of testing.

Although it is difficult to compare 100-0 decel (because of the way the HUD shows speed) with FA-off and even with FA-on in some planes, wherever a clear comparison can be made, 200-100 appears to be identical to 100-0.


OBSERVATIONS

Now, some observations, on how the game's flight model was back in February 2017:

1. In all cases FA-On and FA-Off acceleration were identical 100-200 mps.

2. However, FA-Off was superior in 'getting started': FA-Off acceleration is higher than FA-On for 0-100 mps.

3. The colossal difference comes in deceleration, which has become the main topic of discussion here. With FA-On the ship reduced its lateral speed from 200-100 mps by 4.25 times more quickly with a single lateral thruster in play (left thrust arresting prior right thrust) and by 2.875 times more quickly with two lateral thrusters in play (down + left thrust arresting prior up + right thrust).

This is the 'magic decel' that some of us have not only documented and tested but actually built flying styles around. I have previously stated for good reason that I have found a good way to make a plasma guy miss is to accelerate in one plane with FA-Off, then put FA back on and head in the opposite lateral direction, causing him to miss in the original direction of travel due to magic FA-On decel. You can't - or, at least, couldn't - do the same thing if you kept FA-Off because the decel would be far less forceful.

What I have documented above in my Courier is precisely what Frentox documented in his Viper IV and what Tannik Seldon (@SushiCW) documented in his Keelback, what Morbad has observed and what Alexander the Grape has observed. The latter was actually commenting on precisely this topic the other day on a sub-reddit, where he was saying that this is why he still toggles FA back on from time to time.

Now, from @Ziljan's Corvette test results earlier in this thread, combined with @Morbad's immediate and urgent attempts to confirm, it sounds as though a profound change has been made and when I duplicate this testing in the same Courier, I will find that the massive FA-On decel discrepancy no longer exists.

This will be interesting...

o7 all,

Truesilver

The point is to exceed the enemy's rate of relative movement. Basically stay at approx 750 m to 1500 m and use thrusters (including forwards thrust) and boosting to move just beyond the ability of their nose to track.

There is some more discussion about evasion in duelling generally in this thread here (No.3 in my same series I linked earlier):

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/341107-Truesilver-s-Top-Tips-No-3-Gimballed-Duelling

 

[d8veh]

Lots of theory there. I'd love to see some videos of that in practice against elite Anacondas. I've taken down them down in a Sidewinder a few times, but only pre 2.2, and I've done it a few times in a Viper after 2.2, but some NPC always turned up and helped me before I finished. There's a real danger that you'll die of boredom while he spams his SCBs.

It would be easier if you went properly equipped to deal with a ship like that as a one-on-one single fight, but it would be very difficult in you'r average RES farming small ship with no engineering.

There are some weaknesses in the AI programming that you can exploit: Running down his flank will make him turn away from you in an attempt to get a better position. That works whatever ship you're in. If there's others joining you in the fight, you only have to stop shooting. They always go for the one doing the most damage, so make sure that's not you.

 

[kofeyh]

If you solo an Anaconda in a sidewinder and don't bother to leverage other ships to assist, then you're going to have to work very hard. Which one would expect to be the case.

I can tackle an Anaconda with an eagle, but I am not a fantastic pilot and punching through shields is hard work. But then why am I gunning for apex ships in an eagle or sidewinder? Courier, DBS, Viper; all have a pretty decent shot.

But here is a pretty simple saying, fight smarter, not harder. The right tool for the job can make all the difference.

 

[kiario]

Today in my opinion there is a huge step up in how the AI maneuvers when they are ranked higher i.e dangerous and up.
I can cricle strafe and take on large ships with my Sidewinder(not engineered) when they are lower ranked. Then they dont have that magical abbility to always face you.

Maybe its OK in game terms, but I cant help feeling this is a shortcut by the devs to make the higher ranked NPC more difficult by adding this AI routine,.

 

[UnhappyDev]

A chess computer doesn't cheat. It beats me 100% of the time though, and I'm not a bad chess player.

Same with the Elite dangerous AI, I think (except I win sometimes )

 

[Morbad]

Then they dont have that magical abbility to always face you.

Maybe its OK in game terms, but I cant help feeling this is a shortcut by the devs to make the higher ranked NPC more difficult by adding this AI routine,.

It's not magical and they aren't exceeding, or even fully utilizing, the capabilities of the ships they have.

 

[CptXabaras]

Yes I understand what you say. Thanks for the link. Maybe the simple solution is to reduce the agility of larger ships so that they can not keep their front at you all the time.
Larger ships should not be so easy to pivot aroudn their axis due to larger momentum.
And perhaps increase the turn rate and yaw quite much on the smallest ships.

For the maneuvers to work in your video I think you "need" to fly with assist on.
I only fly witth FA-OFF. And that type of strafing is harder because pitch thrusters appear to be much weaker with fa-off
Sure I can circle strafe an object with fa-off but higher ranked npc just stay put and pivot around their own axis therfore nullifying your advantage in a more agile ship.

Big ships are not agile, they have good Maneuverability. That's different

 

[777Driver]

A chess computer doesn't cheat. It beats me 100% of the time though, and I'm not a bad chess player.

Same with the Elite dangerous AI, I think (except I win sometimes )

That pretty much sums it up. It's a shame Sarah has to dumb down the mid ranked NPC's, gives some players a false sense of confidence.

 

[StiTch]

What an excellent, excellent display of salt, misunderstanding and entitlement. I truly don't know where to start, but am reminded by my logical parts that there's only so much worth saying; clearly no words are going to help here, and it's eternally cemented that some people will just be planks.

Firstly: please explain why you think you have the right to just magically sit behind high ranked enemies. I mean, the clue is right there in your title: high ranked. You're taking on the skilled enemies of the galaxy. And you're upset that they have the skill to not just sit there and take fire from behind. So...you basically want the strongest enemies in ED to play dead like a dog so you can get a sense of reward from this?

Secondly: if you actually had the skill to suitably defeat a high skill opponent you wouldn't make references to "staying right behind them". The skilled ED combatant knows that in space with all degrees of freedom available, and with no restriction on movement the way we experience with planes and the atmosphere, "staying on the opponent's six" when they know half what they are doing is precluded. How can you stay behind someone, where instead of them having to follow a big loop or other manoeuvre to break line of fire and put you in his firing arc, they can just turn on the spot?

The above answers your question on why we cannot have dogfighting. It's not possible because our visage of dogfighting is taken from aerial combat, which is controlled and limited utterly by the environment and atmosphere.

Small ships are 100% capable. Your assertion that "it's not possible to out manoeuvre" high ranking NPCs is a badly fabricated or substantiated lie. But it won't do the work for you. Notably FD WANT them to be disadvantaged against big ships, so stop expecting iWin handouts and free superiority complex; you are going to have to earn that superiority by actually being more skilled than your opponents (shock horror).

 

[kiario]

What an excellent, excellent display of salt, misunderstanding and entitlement. I truly don't know where to start, but am reminded by my logical parts that there's only so much worth saying; clearly no words are going to help here, and it's eternally cemented that some people will just be planks.

Firstly: please explain why you think you have the right to just magically sit behind high ranked enemies. I mean, the clue is right there in your title: high ranked. You're taking on the skilled enemies of the galaxy. And you're upset that they have the skill to not just sit there and take fire from behind. So...you basically want the strongest enemies in ED to play dead like a dog so you can get a sense of reward from this?

Secondly: if you actually had the skill to suitably defeat a high skill opponent you wouldn't make references to "staying right behind them". The skilled ED combatant knows that in space with all degrees of freedom available, and with no restriction on movement the way we experience with planes and the atmosphere, "staying on the opponent's six" when they know half what they are doing is precluded. How can you stay behind someone, where instead of them having to follow a big loop or other manoeuvre to break line of fire and put you in his firing arc, they can just turn on the spot?

The above answers your question on why we cannot have dogfighting. It's not possible because our visage of dogfighting is taken from aerial combat, which is controlled and limited utterly by the environment and atmosphere.

Small ships are 100% capable. Your assertion that "it's not possible to out manoeuvre" high ranking NPCs is a badly fabricated or substantiated lie. But it won't do the work for you. Notably FD WANT them to be disadvantaged against big ships, so stop expecting iWin handouts and free superiority complex; you are going to have to earn that superiority by actually being more skilled than your opponents (shock horror).

First, I am not really upset. Just a little disappointed in how combat goes against High ranked NPC. And secondly I am purely talking about the smallest ships against the larger ones.

FLying a much more agile Sidewinder agianst a Python, it is quite rediculous that you cant outmaneuver the bulky ship and stay out of its fire cone. If I am wrong please show me how it is possible with FA-OFF against Dangerous and higher ranked NPC. I would be thankful then I know it is possible and I am a not so good pilot.

I want strong NPC to be strong and take a variation of counter actions against smaller ships, not just the front against me and if I get too close they boost away and pivot again. In my opinion this is a bad machanic. A better machanic would perhaps be if the larger ship could not outmaneuver and if I was tailing they let go of mines and other counter measures.

I am not lieing, I am just speaking from my own experience. But if you say that it is fabricated then show me the opposite. Take a Sidewinder or Eagle and go up against Dangerous or higher NPC and show me how to outmaneuver in FA-OFF. Thanks you!

 

[ArchEmperor]

And the instruction video of killing Condas with a Sidey is .... where?

 

[-Denali-]

OP is confusing out-turn vs. outmaneuver.

ACM is both a function of physical parameters like turn rates + equally tangible but harder to quantify 'pilot skill' with single measurement

The degree to which you can 'outmaneuver' someone is a combination of the two, and unless your aircraft is so vastly inferior in the former, the latter usually takes far greater precedence.

If you make the dogfight about who can out turn, pitch, or yaw the other, then it will simply be airframe vs airframe and the superior machine will win. Add the pilot factor and the degree to which you can 'outmaneuver' someone gets a whole lot broader.

So if OP can't 'outmaneuver' an NPC ship, I'd suggest his own mental agility is what would provide the edge he needs.

The game does have a real problem with maneuverability balance. So much of it comes from strafing thrusters and larger ships seem to supply proportionally more thrust to overcome prevailing direction of travel than their small, supposedly more maneuverable counterparts.

 

[Han_Zen]

Wrong!

I've done a lot of combat in a Sidey and the only problem is the time to kill. Without NPC's to add some damage it just takes too long to destroy the larger ships. Oh and add enhanced thrusters and the Sidey is anything but slow, in fact I if have trouble staying behind my target in my combat Sidey it's because it's just too damn fast...

This is true. I have enhanced thrusters with G4 dirty on my Sidey. It can circle strafe most bigger ships on their pitch axis, with FA on(just boost when that nose gets close). It's actually ridiculously maneuverable on the lateral thrusters. The weak link is Commander Han Zen.

 

[Siranui]

Yes, it is not fast i agree. Smaller ships should really be faster compared to huge ones. Like if you are front to front with a Clipper and he decides to reverse making it almost impossible for a Sidewinder to get behind
it. It would be better if in that situation if the Sidewinder pushes hard forward he should easily be able to tail the Clipper.
Aren't big ships unrealistically too fast in reverse? Maybe that is the root of the problem?

'Realistically', all ships would have completely unlimited top speeds in vacuum. 'Speed' is better measured by the amount of acceleration a vessel has. 'Realistically' that's about power to mass ratio and it's actually viable that a large vessel might have more than a small one.

But this is a game. Also, the Sidewinder can press 'boost' to gain an overspeed. Although of course the cutter can pivot. That's going to happen, because we have those degrees of motion available to us in a way that atmospheric craft reliant on aerodynamic lift can never have.

We are fighting in a different medium, with different physical rules, so we should no more expect to be able to physically dogfight and stay on someone's six like a WW2 pilot than we should expect tanks or battleships to use similar tactics.

 

[Bertrand Du Guesclin]

This is true. I have enhanced thrusters with G4 dirty on my Sidey. It can circle strafe most bigger ships on their pitch axis, with FA on(just boost when that nose gets close). It's actually ridiculously maneuverable on the lateral thrusters. The weak link is Commander Han Zen.

I remember experimenting with the enhanced thrusters on a dual-railgun Sidey recently, and in the end I had better results using modded standard thrusters (G3 dirty). I had more time on target, and was getting hit less often.
In my experience, my build with enhanced thrusters was too fast, and I was constantly over-shooting when trying to boost out of the ennemy's line of fire.

I also found that my turning circle was tighter with standard thrusters due to better up-down and lateral thrust.
It's all a matter of opinions and playstyle I guess

 

[Siranui]

IT seems like the devs has resorted to almost NPC cheating skills just to make them challenging.

Except they don't. They use overwhelmingly the same rules as us, especially as regards the flight model. The only thing is that they do not use FA-off. They simply are very good at using their thrusters.

If you want to improve to your potential, you need to stamp out 'the AI cheats!' line of thinking. It leads to salt and misery. What you should be thinking is that you only get better by playing better opponents, and that this is an opportunity to improve. It's just a bunch of code. It can't predict and improvise like you can, with your millions of years of evolution.