Elite: Harmless - Karma System aka "be the Tamagotchi" - FRESH SALT, MINED RIGHT HERE

[Minonian]

Indeed - and it's within Frontier's remit to decide what "playing the game as intended" actually is.

Except? FD is an UK company operates within UK borders, and so as the servers, whom making it the Subject of UK law. And wherever you operating, and sitting, with your machine? You are a subject of that nation laws, since you standing on that nation soil.

Edit; Which for example means? You cannot play judge and jury with RL consequences, if you are not, because if you do this without authorization? You committing a crime. Whatever you do it can only affect the game and / or the forum, and even there?

In short? You boys are nothing more just glorified landlords.

 

[Smecca is BMFE]

Would being able to dock in anarchy systems only, be an inconvenience to you?

Because you make a good point. Only having a bounty or monetary penalties would not do the trick. The trick is to make it inconvenient for someone who breaks the law. Which would add some character to the role of law breaker. Right now you can strut around in high security systems and no one bats an eye. I'm not, but if I were to play a notorious killer, I'd like the hiding in anarchy, raid high sec systems, get out before the heat get to hot kind of style. This would also add some character to the galaxy and the system's security statusses would actually mean something. Also in reverse. A trader would be daft to have the trade route go through an anarchy system, this also should have consequences.

But hey ... maybe people prefer, interdict ... pew pew pew yay ... interdict ... pew pew pew yay ... interdict ... pew pew pew routine.

In games the restrictions put on you make the game more interesting in my view.

Ziggy the world you're describing is absolutely ideal. It should have been like that from the start, and I hope that's what it becomes.

Even the "anarchy system only docking" for the serious offenders. It's a ridiculous notion that anyone can dock anywhere at any time. I know parking lots today that have tighter security than these interstellar star ports

 

[-Denali-]

Indeed - and it's within Frontier's remit to decide what "playing the game as intended" actually is.

It would be insane of them to punish players (beyond the C&P system) for doing things that they have programed the AI to do themselves. There can be no clearer example of what their intent was. The showed it when they programmed npc's to do exactly that.

 

[Bunkerkind Anni]

combat logging via the 15s timer is working as intended, using no external tools.

voice attack is a 3rd party tool, not directly supported by the game, giving the user advantages over those not having it.

per definition some here are writing down,
Frontier would need to ignore the combat logger, and ban the macro user.

i totally for the NPC Mom (Sara?) to code NPCs that deal with player who do bad things like griefing.
and i mean, deal with them the in the very same way. like suicidewinders, ganks and interdictions.

the problem is - for those NPCs to identify the players to deal with, those player need to be tracked - and for that it requires a karma system.

 

[lenna]

It would be insane of them to punish players (beyond the C&P system) for doing things that they have programed the AI to do themselves. There can be no clearer example of what their intent was. The showed it when they programmed npc's to do exactly that.

Actually, as of v2.3 the NPC pirate dialog has been substantially improved. They now demand cargo either in terms of value or tonnage. The old griefer/ganker behaviour for NPCs seems to be a thing of the past, using such (past?) NPC behaviours as an excuse to justify comparable commander behaviours is very weak IMO - and as of v2.3, it would seem to be completely unjustified.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Ziggy the world you're describing is absolutely ideal. It should have been like that from the start, and I hope that's what it becomes.

Even the "anarchy system only docking" for the serious offenders. It's a ridiculous notion that anyone can dock anywhere at any time. I know parking lots today that have tighter security than these interstellar star ports

Common ground, sweet!

 

[Robert Maynard]

It would be insane of them to punish players (beyond the C&P system) for doing things that they have programed the AI to do themselves. There can be no clearer example of what their intent was. The showed it when they programmed npc's to do exactly that.

Frontier are in control of the NPCs - AI difficulty, ship and loadout. The same cannot be said of players - which is probably why a Frontier would seem to be considering a karma system to handle particular player behaviours that might be judged to be bad for the health of the game.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Frontier are in control of the NPCs - AI difficulty, ship and loadout. The same cannot be said of players - which is probably why a Frontier would seem to be considering a karma system to handle particular player behaviours that might be judged to be bad for the health of the game.

Still ... it would be good if the actions towards NPCs also had consequences similar to actions towards players. Just for ... oh dear ... I hope everyone is seated ... well, you're on a computer ... immersion and persistence's sake.

 

[lenna]

Still ... it would be good if the actions towards NPCs also had consequences similar to actions towards players. Just for ... oh dear ... I hope everyone is seated ... well, you're on a computer ... immersion and persistence's sake.

NPCs are not the same as players - they do not have progression nor rebuy cost considerations for starters. They are typically either just ambient population OR generated for specific player interactions (at least AFAIK).

Currently, the consequences for players are the same regardless of what they attack. This arguably needs to change since at least some players take things too far in regards to other players.

There is a secondary concern perhaps regarding AI reactions to normal player criminals but that is a different matter entirely.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Still ... it would be good if the actions towards NPCs also had consequences similar to actions towards players. Just for ... oh dear ... I hope everyone is seated ... well, you're on a computer ... immersion and persistence's sake.

I doubt they will - as Sandro said in the Deliberate Ramming thread (words to the effect) - "NPCs don't fund the game".

Karma would seem to be akin to The Pilots' Federation handling poor member behaviour towards other members and NPCs are not members.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

NPCs are not the same as players - they do not have progression nor rebuy cost considerations for starters. They are typically either just ambient population OR generated for specific player interactions (at least AFAIK).

I doubt they will - as Sandro said in the Deliberate Ramming thread (words to the effect) - "NPCs don't fund the game".

Out of game, these are understandable.

In game, it's inconsistent.

 

[lenna]

Out of game, these are understandable.

In game, it's inconsistent.

Maybe, but those who engage in the undesirable behaviour patterns are the only ones who should really notice the differences... at least if FD do it right.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

#npccodesmatter.

You sold it to me Jason.

 

[Robert Maynard]

#npccodesmatter.

You sold it to me Jason.

I mentioned NPCs being treated differently to Sandro in the Deliberate Ramming thread:

It's just that to deal with this particular issue is beyond all such teeth without effectively creating a PVE zone or flag environment. Without such things, it would be next to impossible to prevent the crime, only respond to it. And at this point, you're back to consequences, which a karma system can possibly handle better.

There has been some discontent regarding the apparent disparity of treatment between player vs. player interactions and player vs. NPC interactions.

You mentioned earlier that the karma system is designed to deal with player/player actions - although did not seem to rule out applying a karmic hit for player vs. NPC actions. Could you please clarify if karma would be applied for player/player interactions and some player/NPC interactions or not?

Also, are you considering beefed up consequences for crime in general (that would apply regardless of the nature of the target)?

Hello Commander Robert Maynard!

Remembering that none of this is being promised, I would say this about the players interacting with players versus players interacting with NPCs:

* In general, only players are members of the Pilot's Federation, which would be the organisation dealing with a karma rating.

* NPCs don't support the game's development. They don't (as far as I can tell) enjoy or hate the game mechanics. This system is not about them. It's not even focused on verisimilitude. It's about dealing with humans in a shared game space and creating an environment which supports as many of them as possible as well as we can.

Whilst we could apply a karma system to NPC interactions it would require more data tracking and serve no useful purpose as far as I can make out.

The only "beefing up" of crime I can think of at the moment is more teeth to authority vessels to cope with heavily engineered ships (authority vessels are always meant to be a threat, so I'd like to see them visiting the Engineers).

 

[lenna]

I mentioned NPCs being treated differently to Sandro in the Deliberate Ramming thread:

I think this has been stated before in this very thread, yet some still seem to not get it.

 

[DefiledDragon]

Frontier are in control of the NPCs - AI difficulty, ship and loadout. The same cannot be said of players - which is probably why a Frontier would seem to be considering a karma system to handle particular player behaviours that might be judged to be bad for the health of the game.

But frontier are in control of players ships and loadouts. It was FD that gave us The Engineers and opened an avenue for players to build completely overpowered (when compared to non engineered) ships. Can't lay the blame for that at the feet of the players, they're just working with the tools FD have provided.

 

[Robert Maynard]

But frontier are in control of players ships and loadouts. It was FD that gave us The Engineers and opened an avenue for players to build completely overpowered (when compared to non engineered) ships. Can't lay the blame for that at the feet of the players, they're just working with the tools FD have provided.

Only in terms of the upper limits - and NPCs don't spawn with upper limit ships / loadouts against players, i.e. Frontier control what players meet with regard to NPCs. The same cannot be said of players.

Players min/max, of that there is no doubt.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

edit...

 

[Minonian]

Out of mere curiosity;

To talk about griefing in this thread can be off topic?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I mentioned NPCs being treated differently to Sandro in the Deliberate Ramming thread:

I read that, I know what Sandro posted. Still ... I have opinions and stuff