The only word appropriate to describe this post is: Hysteria. The entire sentiment is unfounded, and without basis. Scare tactics based on nothing but buzz words.
Elite: Harmless - Karma System aka "be the Tamagotchi" - FRESH SALT, MINED RIGHT HERE
- Thread starter ranje
- Start date
The only word appropriate to describe this post is: Hysteria. The entire sentiment is unfounded, and without basis. Scare tactics based on nothing but buzz words.
No, the one word that is best used to describe my sentiment: conviction.
Not a shred of hysteria, I can assure you
I don't agree with you.
Sandro has stated that the Karma system will not be affected by your actions against NPCs.
That, in my opinion, is a mistake - the current C&P system we have is too linear / black-n-white, and inadequate for ED:
- Build a framework for a new C&P system that encompasses various good and bad behaviours
- Weight each action for the super power in question. (Killing a Fed maybe more tolerated than the Empire, for example - both result in a negative hit, but Empire more than Fed)
- Apply to game as a whole including one set of settings for the Pilots Federation (that encompasses FD original intention re Karma system)
It would perform the original intention (curb bad behavior between players); enhances ED for everyone including solo players; maintains consistency for the game integrity.
EDIT:
Overall game enhancements could include:
- More Karma results in lower bounties against you; more chance of a bounty being a fine instead; discounts in stations; enhanced insurance; etc
- Less Karma results in higher bounties against you; more chances of NPC police / BHs coming after you; denied docking rights locally or even galactic wide; insurance revoked; etc
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No, the one word that is best used to describe my sentiment: conviction.
Not a shred of hysteria, I can assure you
If you have such conviction that your personal opinion is the only opinion that should mater and or has merit, then why bother and reply to any posts? If you are resolute in the karma systems failure, then I cant see the need for you to continue fear mongering. You know your truth so why bother to try and change anyone elses mind?
Meanwhile everyone else here putting together ideas to make it both viable for PVE and PVP can continue the conversation. We already know SS is watching this thread, so perhaps some of our ideas might spark other avenues they can pursue while developing the system.
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If the in game AI was infalable then I would agree and it could be applied to NPCs as well. But for the most part any time I become wanted for hurting an NPC, it was because the NPC flew right in front of my and I bumped it while it had 1% hull and it exploded. Or my favorite, the security forces diving straight through my field of fire. They do these things because they are NPCs and they have no sense of self preservation.
If NPCs stay this way, then the karma system will essentially punish people for NPCs being lemmings and suiciding themselves using your ship and ammo to do so.
Make them infallible, intuitive, and intelligent, then sure Karma away.
Again, injecting my comments when really I don't care anymore.
Bad habit of mine .. must stop posting
Move along ..
Bad habit of mine .. must stop posting
Move along ..
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Goose4291
Banned
Youre right. But a lot of folk posting here dont seem to so much want a working crime and punishment system (as it might impact on their gameplay style, due to C&P affecting those who pvp and pve) and more a karmaic system that removes players from the game for initiating combat in a style that isnt akin to dueling in the napoleonic era.
Nah there is no reason to go over this again with you. You want a system where there is no punishment and killing is a happy care free day in the park.The current status quo is fine with you so stick with the system that will hinder griefing the least.
But thats fine. If that is what you wish, then they will have to end up implementing a draconian system like Eve. You commit a crime in secured space, then the unkillable murder cops show up blow you away and you lose your ship entirely. If your intention is to see all PVP die in the game, then that is the method you should condone and support.
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Two systems are needed because they deal with different things.
A crime and punishment system can only deal with in-game lore related things. Speeding, selling illegal goods, murder - things that are illegal in the game world.
A karma system is needed to deal with activities that FD considers harmful for the game and the player community - things players do with out of the game motivations. Things like Combat logging or "griefing" - toxic behavior that harms the game.
Am I the only one getting annoyed by BOTH extremes here?
Maybe I'm wrong but NEITHER of you seem to be painting the other side's view fairly. Certainly not a view that most people on that other side are presenting. It's just polarizing rhetoric. What is this, an election year?
Goose4291
Banned
Bland 'gweefer' generalisations based on not reading my prior posts, including the one where I suggest how the 'karma' system could work for example in a CZ.
Please explain how me wanting a system where players choosing to play as bad boys, whether its against NPCs or other players are punished using ingame mechanic, rather than a system reliant on out of game punishments in your eyes puts me into the same category of player archetypes as those who Griefaconda on Noobwinders?
I think you are right, it seems to me though that the fundamental problem is communication.
Zambrick has a point wrt the necessity of a karma system, and Goose4291 also has a point wrt ensuring the C&P system is still effective. The two concepts are NOT mutually exclusive, they should be complementary.
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Both sides are probably overestimating the effect of Sandro's karma idea.
The system is basically for reducing combat logging and station ramming.
Killing clean commanders in regular space will rarely be affected by this, I think. That is a job for the C&P system.
Karma system is better used against relogg and suicide exploits and similar semi cheating activities.
That's been my take as well.
Just doing what he is doing.
The only effective way to both deter griefing with a black and white C&P system in a game is 1 of 2 outcomes. 1 the outcome is barely noticeable or the second outcome the punishment is overly harsh. There is no in between. Just like now when you get killed because the nose of your ship clips into a building in the star port and you cant get out in time. The station kills you. Or the 6k per kill fine you get for murdering newbies in the starter area.
Crimes and Punishment do not track trends it does not keep a record that would effect the crime or punishment. If it were the real world you could increase jail time, but there is no jail time in games. So in ED terms unless your ship is getting blown away by murder cops then the alternative would be a monetary fine that nobody is afraid of. Just like it is now.
There is a reason why court systems keep records of past crimes. It helps them determine what the punishment will be. The only difference being that in ED the Karma system would both be the record system and the jury/judge of the players character.
There must be a record of the crimes and it must persist beyond character death. If it does not, then no amount of punishment will work unless its the most harsh and draconian punishment possible. Its hard to punish people using fake credits in a fake world with no lasting effect.
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It's impossible. No in-game punishment can deter out-of-game motivated actions. Doesn't work, never worked, will never work. That's why other game companies use bans (timed and permanently) to punish toxic and unwanted behavior.
FD is extremely soft when it comes to punishing players. They want the karma system, because it is not harsh to the players - no matter how harsh the in-game effects are.
If the karma system fails, for what ever reason, then the next possible options are much harsher and much more restricting to those who are currently so vehemently against the karma system.
Does not make it right though.
Overall, I tend to agree with your perspective and based on some of the suggestions I think two separate but comparable karma type systems may be in order. One for PvP actions targeted at griefers, gankers, and cheats and One for overall in-game criminal actions that helps to increase the effectiveness of the nominal C&P system.
The griefer/ganker/cheat system would be comparable to the existing player reporting system but perhaps casting a slightly wider net in order to address certain issues that FD feel need addressing.
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![[VR] Merkir](https://forums-cdn.zaonce.net/data/avatars/m/141/141091.jpg?1553527154){kind=avatar}
Suggestion to FDev
Forums are not an ideal place to gather ideas, opinions or suggestions. There's too much misinformation, miscommunication, posturing and emotion.
FDev should organise for their lead game designers to meet with a dozen chosen/invited players who they believe can fairly represent all play styles and archetypes. The meeting should have as its main goal "Design a Karma and C&P(&R) system to improve Elite Dangerous." The agenda should include all the usual suspects: fairness, balance, inclusion, open/pg/solo modes, PvP/PvE, Commanders/NPCs, griefing, etc. Any experienced business person will tell you that face-to-face meetings are much more likely to facilitate people working productively together towards a common goal, even those with seemingly diametrically opposed views.
So a suggestion to FDev: Try it.
ps. I wouldn't suggest this for any other aspect of the game other than Karma/C&P. There's too much player investment in this to risk disenfranchising any one or more play types.
Forums are not an ideal place to gather ideas, opinions or suggestions. There's too much misinformation, miscommunication, posturing and emotion.
FDev should organise for their lead game designers to meet with a dozen chosen/invited players who they believe can fairly represent all play styles and archetypes. The meeting should have as its main goal "Design a Karma and C&P(&R) system to improve Elite Dangerous." The agenda should include all the usual suspects: fairness, balance, inclusion, open/pg/solo modes, PvP/PvE, Commanders/NPCs, griefing, etc. Any experienced business person will tell you that face-to-face meetings are much more likely to facilitate people working productively together towards a common goal, even those with seemingly diametrically opposed views.
So a suggestion to FDev: Try it.
ps. I wouldn't suggest this for any other aspect of the game other than Karma/C&P. There's too much player investment in this to risk disenfranchising any one or more play types.
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Please don't feed the flames.
I don't think any of us are truly against a "working" C&P system, but even that would not address all the concerns that FD seem to have regarding certain habitual and extreme PvP behaviours.
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Minonian
Banned
One thing is sure i can bet karma system is gonna to stop griefing if you lots fear the very idea this much. After all? You lots abusing the tools against the others to "educate", (just another form of griefing) what you fear the most, and in the same time? you whining and attacking it the loudest.
Now? I'm absolutley convinced about it's necessity.
Now? I'm absolutley convinced about it's necessity.
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