Quince is even more broken than we tought

[TopCat160]

Grind can be looked past if the rewards are there, the problem with Elite is that frequently, they aren't.

Indeed, and in particular the missions (and their associated rewards) that you have available with the expensive ships are not commensurate with the effort accumulating the money to buy them.

So you get more risk-averse as you go on, which also erodes the fun. If I farkup and lose my Conda, that's a lot of hours I have to spend recouping the rebuy.

 

[evanevery]

Apparently the missions will pick back up by Thursday.

I have been getting scan missions each and every day for quite a while. They come and go...

 

[evanevery]

So you'd have been quite happy to start the game with every ship and 10billion credits ? Then you miss the whole point of what Elite is but don't worry, you don't have to care about that. You paid for the game, enjoy your sandbox where you don't have to work to earn anything.
If only real life was like that. A lottery win perhaps.

So saith the "Disciples of Elite" for only they know the true way. We are not worthy!

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

So you'd have been quite happy to start the game with every ship and 10billion credits ? Then you miss the whole point of what Elite is but don't worry, you don't have to care about that. You paid for the game, enjoy your sandbox where you don't have to work to earn anything.
If only real life was like that. A lottery win perhaps.

lol indeed.. whilst for me IN GAME the feeling of reward and earning my stuff is tantamount to the reason i play... but in real life, if quince existed i would be there with all of you (i dont mean "you" literally Rusty Dog)...

(but lets be honest, even in real life, how much sweeter is your enjoyment of something if you actually had to work for it, rather than be gifted on a plate)

PS I generally have done each "exploit" once... because it is good to have some idea of what I am moaning about.....

I drew the line at quince tho, it was just too much for me.... and some of the other get rich quick schemes i did them for the "science" and then proceeded to blow the money on (imperial) slaves and then gift to mates who were less (wow the word filter is strict) "annually retentive" than I


edit and for the record. I hold no grudge with any player exploiting the hell out of quince or what ever... if the game allows it fill your boots, it is not my place to decide who is hurting the game and who is not.

I only ever speak for how these places affect *my* enjoyment of the game. I put my thoughts out there and ultimately it is down to FD to say whether they feel the current balance in the game and the way the economy works is in the spirit of the game they sold me back in 2013.

but its not the players who I judge on how these exploits come and go, it is FD.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

This thread is broken.

These are not exploits. There's nothing special at all about them. Anyone can choose to use these methods, but I do agree - they do get very boring very fast.

But they're just missions. You needed even log out and in to fill up on them, just wait for more to be posted.

I think the real issue has nothing to do with who makes how much doing these, but rather - the folks so worried about the BGS that they can't sleep at night don't have any means to stop an influx of commanders from loading up on these kinds of missions and are too few in number to load themselves up on counter-missions to offset them, thus they come here crying "Exploit" where there is none.

And there is no solution, short of limiting everyone to a set number of missions, per faction, per station, per day, and no one, including the BGS worriers really want that either, as it would limit them as well.

How many credits someone makes and how long it takes is no one else's concern. There is no progression in Elite, and to claim otherwise is more fantasy than Elite itself. What ship you fly, what navy rank you hold - it really means nothing. If you're a crap pilot, there's only one thing you can do, and that's fly more, period.

You can't buy or fake skill.

 

[Fishy]

lol indeed.. whilst for me IN GAME the feeling of reward and earning my stuff is tantamount to the reason i play... but in real life, if quince existed i would be there with all of you...

(but lets be honest, even in real life, how much sweeter is your enjoyment of something if you actually had to work for it, rather than be gifted on a plate)

Would you enjoy this forum more if you had to pay for each post? What would you say the sweet spot should be at in terms of post-per-working-hour?

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Would you enjoy this forum more if you had to pay for each post? What would you say the sweet spot should be at in terms of post-per-working-hour?

? I dont get your point..... the forum is not AFAIK a game where we roleplay the life of a spaceman living in 1000 years time.

As for what should earnings per hr in the game be... well, that is for FD to decide..... but gold rushes we came accross either by chance or by doing missions or by following bread crumbs were absolutely meant to be in the game.

but they were meant to be rare, and come and go v quickly so we are precious and secretive about them.. however as long as long term cash cows exist, then actually working to find your own little "pot of gold" rush is kind of made pointless.

I just feel it pulls the rug from under the entire point of playing.... others disagree and that is cool to because as i said, ultimately we give our views, and its down to FD to decide whether it is in the spirit of the game they sold..

 

[sollisb]

? I dont get your point..... the forum is not AFAIK a game where we roleplay the life of a spaceman living in 1000 years time.

As for what should earnings per hr in the game be... well, that is for FD to decide..... but gold rushes we came accross either by chance or by doing missions or by following bread crumbs were absolutely meant to be in the game.

but they were meant to be rare, and come and go v quickly so we are precious and secretive about them.. however as long as long term cash cows exist, then actually working to find your own little "pot of gold" rush is kind of made pointless.

I just feel it pulls the rug from under the entire point of playing.... others disagree and that is cool to because as i said, ultimately we give our views, and its down to FD to decide whether it is in the spirit of the game they sold..

I think you're being your own worst enemy here. You can play how you want. What concern or indeed, business is it of yours how others play? The fact is, you have choices, so have everyone else. You choose yours, let others choose theirs. It's not your business how I play, or how I got my ships, no more than it is any business of mine how you got yours.

I challenge you to explain, how it affects your game/grind?

 

[TheAntitheist Crusader]

My reason for being in quince is empire rank, i have got the federal corvette the hard way, i'm dangerous combat, elite trade, and pioneer exploration, i have enjoyed hundreds of hours doing each kind of activity including mining, CGs and powerplay, i'll enjoy hundreds of hours more, but if i'm being honest, i want a cutter, and i want it as soon as i can get it. (only just jumped on the quince train today after returning from colonia).

 

[fennster]

I think you're being your own worst enemy here. You can play how you want. What concern or indeed, business is it of yours how others play? The fact is, you have choices, so have everyone else. You choose yours, let others choose theirs. It's not your business how I play, or how I got my ships, no more than it is any business of mine how you got yours.

I challenge you to explain, how it affects your game/grind?

You know when you make a game you must set up rules to make the game fun (or at least try to). Now one of the objectives of Elite is to start in a Sidewinder and make your way in a "dangerous" galaxy.

Now in the ideal world, a completed Elite Dangerous game, see X amounts of years in the future, would have multiple options. Both easy and and hard, both with their separate rewards, choices and consequences. However each of these paths would offer equal experiences in term of gameplay.

Now cut to the present, we have a game devoid of most of the above, but with all of the reward...

You can fool yourself into I care how the game is being played by you, but the truth is I care more about the state of the game.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I challenge you to explain, how it affects your game/grind?

either you get it or you don't.. and some in this thread DO "get" it even if ultimately to them its not a problem.

I tried the most obvious analogy I could as to why it makes my game feel pointless....... but I cant think of a way to put it any more obvious... its a feeling of enjoyment, you can say it does not effect you and that is fine .... but you don't get to say I am wrong.... well you can but that is just daft. ultimately right or wrong its irrelevant it is what the devs thing of it and do about it that matter, and their actions speaks volumes imo

"it is like, imagine playing a game where you could be a woodcutter, and your "role" in that game is to cut down trees and make planks of wood.......

but in a barn in the next field there is a glitch which means that barn is full of planks and you can just help yourself..... would that not pee on your chips and make you think "what is the point of being a wood cutter and making those planks when i can just get all the planks i could ever need".

at some point sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting la la la la la I am going to pretend that does not exist and i will continue doing these low paying tasks anyway just gets too much... imo. "

 

[EddyRockSteady]

"it is like, imagine playing a game where you could be a woodcutter, and your "role" in that game is to cut down trees and make planks of wood.....but in a barn in the next field there is a glitch which means that barn is full of planks and you can just help yourself..... would that not pee on your chips and make you think "what is the point of being a wood cutter and making those planks when i can just get all the planks i could ever need".

at some point sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting la la la la la I am going to pretend that does not exist and i will continue doing these low paying tasks anyway just gets too much... imo. "

Your analogy is unfortunately far too generous insofar as Elite is concerned.

Let's condense it down a wee bit:

Yes, In Elite we are all woodcutters.

However,

What would you like to cut your planks with?

A blunt butter knife?

Or a chainsaw?

Me, I'd like to have the chainsaw please. Just so happens in Elite is that said chainsaw is stuck behind a humongous grind-wall of credits. Yes, in order to move away from the butter-knife to your chainsaw you need to sweat blood and tears for months, if not years.

That said, please feel free to work your back skew for years grinding away with your butter-knife to be able to afford the chainsaw to cut planks with.

Me?

I'm hopping over the border to Elitizikistan where I am not met with, as stated, a humongous grind-wall of credits.

I'll be back in weeks, refreshed and strong as an Ox with enough credits to buy the chainsaw whereafter I can get on with the job of cutting planks in a far far far more enjoyable manner than my compatriots stuck with butter knives.

Then again, that's just me.

 

[Truesilver]

Speaking personally, if there was an offline mode with a separate, single player only, save, there would be no relevance to me in what other people did in it. They could hack, mod, do whatever, because in no sense would it affect me.

In the 1985 Spectrum Elite that I remember, if you called your starting Cmdr, 'TERMINATOR', you automatically received all rank and modules instantly. Basically a coded hack courtesy of Braben & Bell. To use if you pleased.

Likewise if we had separate galaxies with separate BGS and separate saves, then I would choose the Open one and I would not care what happened in the Solo galaxy, the Xbox galaxy or the PS4 galaxy.

However, as we have only one galaxy, and as I play the game competitively, I do care. I would prefer it if none of the shortcuts like Quince (and worse, some of them far, far worse...) had ever existed.

If tomorrow Frontier announced a new, 'clean' galaxy, that you had to wipe your save to join and with some (I'm speaking hypothetically, bear with me here guys) guarantee of no shortcuts (oh, and RNGineering removed) then I would wipe my save and join it with a happy heart. I would undock at Trevithick in my Sidey with a smile and shed no tears for the loss of my Robigo billions, Crack Train CIF or all the rest of it.

But, it isn't going to happen. And as I play the game competitively, I personally jump on every possible shortcut I can find. Because that's what my enemies do, and I don't just want to beat them morally, I want to beat them.

 

[Fishy]

? I dont get your point..... the forum is not AFAIK a game where we roleplay the life of a spaceman living in 1000 years time.

I'm just challenging your assertion that "even in real life" something earned is inherently "sweeter" than something granted for free. It's not a universal rule for games and it certainly isn't one in life. It depends on context and personality.

I just feel it pulls the rug from under the entire point of playing....

And you're certainly not alone. Personally, I'm on the other side of the fence. I enjoy the flying, the outfitting, the sightseeing. Credit/mats earning is fine by me as a minor direction to nudge you into, but are way overtuned in many regards (large ship prices, some of the rarer mats). I enjoy challenges, not time gates.

ultimately we give our views, and its down to FD to decide whether it is in the spirit of the game they sold..

They already have, and they agree with you, hence the carrot-oriented design as opposed to a sandbox. An offline mode might have given people like me a way around it but well, we all know how that one ended.

 

[sollisb]

either you get it or you don't.. and some in this thread DO "get" it even if ultimately to them its not a problem.

I tried the most obvious analogy I could as to why it makes my game feel pointless....... but I cant think of a way to put it any more obvious... its a feeling of enjoyment, you can say it does not effect you and that is fine .... but you don't get to say I am wrong.... well you can but that is just daft. ultimately right or wrong its irrelevant it is what the devs thing of it and do about it that matter, and their actions speaks volumes imo

"it is like, imagine playing a game where you could be a woodcutter, and your "role" in that game is to cut down trees and make planks of wood.......

but in a barn in the next field there is a glitch which means that barn is full of planks and you can just help yourself..... would that not pee on your chips and make you think "what is the point of being a wood cutter and making those planks when i can just get all the planks i could ever need".

at some point sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting la la la la la I am going to pretend that does not exist and i will continue doing these low paying tasks anyway just gets too much... imo. "

Firstly, thank you for replying.

Let's address the 'devs' bit first. I agree, but the problem is; The devs/FD/management have failed utterly to deliver a joined up game. Each part is essentially existing on its own merit. Add to that; each part/facet of the game is broken. Lets be clear; There are people/players that cannot even spend an evening playing the game without multiple disconnects.

For the Devs to begin to 'instruct' me on how they think I should play the game, they ought to really deliver that game first. Right now it's a train wreck.

Next is your woodcutter analogy, and again, I agree. How-ever; The problem here is again down to FD incompetence. They gave you the forest; They gave you the axe; But they also setup the shop across the road with the electric woodcutting machine.

Let's not blame the customers for buying the cheaper accessible produce!

-

ED in and of itself is way to based on a random generator. You cannot, create a viable MMO on pure randomness. It simply won't work. Add to this; that the recent 'fixes' which were supposed to fix 'quince' actually, made Quince an even better exploit than it was!! This is pre and simple incompetence. I know it may sound like I'm just throwing out these words, but, if you stand back and think about it; How else can you explain it?

Another problem is the FD as a 'Game Developer'.. There have been many, many games in the past that failed; And usually because of one thing; Communication. Without it; People worry/complain/make up/develop theories. This is detrimental to a games company.

Recently we had the 2.3 drop. And being pragmatic and realistic, it was a dismal failure. For all the hype, we got mostly bugs and fluff. There is absolutely nothing in this 2.3 drop that is 'astounding'. Unless you want to relate that word to the amount of bugs that were allowed to release with the game. Part of 2.3 was the 'Quince fix'. This was supposed to limit scan missions to 3 per player at any one time. To overcome the cries of anguish, they increased the payout. So; a scan mission that used to yield me maybe 1.3m now yields 3m+. Great until you realise, that the 3 per player is flawed. You can grab the 2 hishest paying, then roll the boards and take the remaining scan missions listed.

This pure incompetence (that word again) by the coders, by the project team, my the management. How could they let such a blatant flaw enter the production release?

And none this includes, missing galaxy map, missing stat systems, missing lots of things, bugs that should never have been released. We are over a month after the introduction of the new Network code, and I for one am still have major issues. None of which I had prior to 2.3. 2.3 was an Elite Disaster.

Now, as to your points, which are indeed valid. But they are flawed in that FD has let you down. You want to play the game as they announced it was going to be played, but; they delivered something entirely different. They delivered a grind fest. Something, only a few people are happy to commit to. And thats a valuable word.. Commit.. If people don't commit to the game, the game is going to die.

Naval progression is a grind fest; Each of the 'Elite' ranks is a grind fest, and what is at the end of the grind fest? Absolutely... Nothing... Thats where ED fails hugely! Any other MMO has something for the 'end game', the reason players commit to the grind.. There is something at the end... Raids or whatever. ED has zilch, nada, nothing.

So why, I ask you, should I not enjoy the game as best I can, while it still exists. The reality is; There is all for me if I do it the slow way...

Sorry for the ramble

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

@fishy To be honest bud I think FD are in some ways pleasing neither side. An optimist would argue this is the art of compromise, but OTOH a more worrying view would be jack of all trades master of none

@sollisb I don't blame you at all mate and bear you nor anyone else any blame. Play your way as long as you can I just put my view forward and explain what has pushed me away for now

 

[yodajedifishmaster]

i still confuse quince with that vegetabalist meat replacement product... quorn is it?

 

[IndigoWyrd]

However, as we have only one galaxy, and as I play the game competitively, I do care. I would prefer it if none of the shortcuts like Quince (and worse, some of them far, far worse...) had ever existed.

Elite is like Golf - your only real competition is yourself.

There's no prize at the end to be won.
There's no end to reach.
There's just ships, and 400 billion stars.

But keep trying to win, because you never will. In fact, by trying to win you've already lost.

 

[Saxon Kili]

I'm just challenging your assertion that "even in real life" something earned is inherently "sweeter" than something granted for free. It's not a universal rule for games and it certainly isn't one in life. It depends on context and personality.

Get those lottery winnings away from me! I want to earn it the hard way.

 

[sollisb]

@fishy To be honest bud I think FD are in some ways pleasing neither side. An optimist would argue this is the art of compromise, but OTOH a more worrying view would be jack of all trades master of none

@sollisb I don't blame you at all mate and bear you nor anyone else any blame. Play your way as long as you can I just put my view forward and explain what has pushed me away for now

Hey mate, there's no ill will at all on my side. I hear your point. I agree with your point. But FD gave us this mess. And lets be honest.. If you give people on option to earn credits easy or hard way, most pick the easy way. The problem with that is 'eaten bread is soon forgotton'.. A lot of peeps will be bored.

I'ce come from and I assume you too, from the original ED. Credits were earned the hard way.

But even then, FD ed us over. An example; You use to earn credits in the Res zones and on top of that rank. What did FD do? They removed the rank, and then gave us this cheating NPC cr*p. Now not only do you not get rank, but you also have to chase ships, which then dissappear and reappear elsewhere. Thi sis not fun., it's actually annoying.

FD need to cop on and realise, that while they're creating the game, we have to play it, and if it's not fun to play... They can shove it..