If you could just get another couple of hundred users to agree as well, and cause a storm here and on reddit, then FD might just give us an answer
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News Elite Dangerous - 2.4 and beyond
- Thread starter Zac Antonaci
- Start date
If you could just get another couple of hundred users to agree as well, and cause a storm here and on reddit, then FD might just give us an answer
Hi Zac, first of all allow me to express my whole gratitude for the good news. REALLY appreciated.
Now it would be kind of you if you could dissipate some concerns that grew after this announcement.
Though I'm VERY happy with the fact that the team will focus on core gameplay fix in the incoming future, do this mean that no new additions to the game will be made on the foreseeable future ?
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for fixing and polishing existing content. But as it has been pointed out by some, fixing game elements by themselves while very good, does not justify any future investment on the game.
I do hope, though core elements will be worked on and polished, new content will be added in the future.
Ok, perhaps not 2.4, maybe a little in 3.0 ? ( a new ship ? Gas giants ? )
I understand if you are not allowed to be specific and that you must remain vague, a small hint on the fact that new content will be added, even if small, would do wonders for clearing my current doubts.
Now, I know you are a busy man, so I will just leave this here and hope you find time to read and answer.
Again thanks for your time.
Now it would be kind of you if you could dissipate some concerns that grew after this announcement.
Though I'm VERY happy with the fact that the team will focus on core gameplay fix in the incoming future, do this mean that no new additions to the game will be made on the foreseeable future ?
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for fixing and polishing existing content. But as it has been pointed out by some, fixing game elements by themselves while very good, does not justify any future investment on the game.
I do hope, though core elements will be worked on and polished, new content will be added in the future.
Ok, perhaps not 2.4, maybe a little in 3.0 ? ( a new ship ? Gas giants ? )
I understand if you are not allowed to be specific and that you must remain vague, a small hint on the fact that new content will be added, even if small, would do wonders for clearing my current doubts.
Now, I know you are a busy man, so I will just leave this here and hope you find time to read and answer.
Again thanks for your time.
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My fear is that they keep the same lousy old mechanics (eg point and honk for exploration, blegh!). This needs a complete revamp imo. Should be dynamic and involve player input besides just aiming. There should be different kinds of sensors, dynamic EM spectrum, particle, graviton, etc. And a telescope/observatory used to ID distant objects/stars/nebula you are looking at from the cockpit (science station) or scan in-system objects from a distance. Zoom in at very high power x2 - x100000 etc. Spy equipment for Power Play espionage, etc. Scanning a system for specific ship signatures. Tracking wanted players and persistent NPCs. Posting public galactic notices for notorious wanted players spotted in a system.
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Or it is just Apple being Apple. API that is good for every other OS? Heck no, we make our own API, with blackjack and social workers. Thing is, if you do a quick google, you will see that the compute shader support via Metal comes up real quick in regards to Unity for instance. They don't have support yet either. Then again, this doesn't change the fact that FD is the one who should communicate with the Mac userbase about the situation.
Oh, certainly, you can make demanding games in macOS! (in Metal; it's more difficult in an aging OpenGL framework; and more difficult again given the lack of high-end GPUs in current Macs and the inability to upgrade them). Others can do it because they have large financial backing, or porting is their sole focus.
The red bit is precisely the problem. OpenGL on macOS is largely stuck on 4.1 (with some 4.2 extensions), released in 2010. I don't know about you, but I consider "not updating in 7 years" to be "not supporting".
What's vague? The very old version of OpenGL on macOS doesn't support compute shaders, and Horizons requires compute shaders. Nothing has changed there, so why would they need to keep re-issuing the same statement? Metal may have changed in that time, but I'd be surprised if the changes make it meaningfully easier to port an OpenGL to, so nothing's likely to have changed there either. If you believe something has changed that makes it easier for Frontier - please let us know the details. Ideally without the name-calling.
It's a bit strange that you defend Apple, say they haven't dropped OpenGL, even though they haven't released meaningful updates in 7 years. Yet you criticise Frontier, even though they're actively adding features to the 1.x releases for Mac.
Yeah, if the rumors about compute shader now being supported are false, FD should give a clear statement about that, or if they are truly supported FD should give a statement about not having the resources to port COBRA to Metal.
(Still Apple to blame for being Apple, FD already said that using compute shaders was a performance obligation, not a real choise avaible)
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That's odd because this Unity roadmap page suggests that they do, since 31 March 2017.
Tessellation for Metal is in the research section though, I think that FD did mention something about that at one point. However at WWDC in 2016, Unity demonstrated a proof of concept.
Ah nice, my random google fu just turned up forum threads and those predicted it for early summer. If it's done there then it's a good thing I guess. Not that it means any changes for ED, but at least it shows it's doable, I guess.
I think it's a question of being precise. Apple haven't dropped OpenGL, nor have they developed it either since well before ED was KickStarted. FD may have had an expectation that OpenGL was going to be continued to be developed on OS X/macOS, but that has turned out to be an assumption.
Regardless of whose fault it is, FD has the responsibility, so it's not unreasonable for FD to keep macOS users informed.
"Sadly, neither the OS X OpenGL nor Apple's Metal API support the required compute shaders and the other possibilities that we have explored simply don’t allow us the performance that Elite Dangerous: Horizons requires." This FAQ was updated on : Saturday 26th December 2015, Metal was updated with the Sierra release of macOS in autumn 2016.
What’s New in iOS 10, tvOS 10, and macOS 10.12
I'm no expert (that must be obvious), but it seems there are enough changes there that FD could at least comment on what is still missing from Metal.
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I think that's a fair and accurate assessment.
My opinion is - Metal is largely irrelevant from FD's perspective. It's not "what it has or is missing" is the question. It's the effort/cost in porting the existing game to Metal, plus the next X years of new development in both. The Mac market is too small to justify that additional work. A Mac version in sync with the PC version was feasible when both could use OpenGL, but due to the disparities (which are only going to increase) between the two, it no longer is.
The only things I could imagine which would change the status quo:
- Lots more potential Mac ED sales, makes porting to Metal feasible. (Unlikely, but given Apple's statement about the Mac Pro & iMac this year, I think we could see major changes in the next generation, perhaps going back to upgradable Macs with high-end GPUs).
- Apple or a 3rd party update OpenGL framework to 4.3+ (could happen, more likely a 3rd party)
- A Metal port becomes technically easier/cheaper.
I'm not discounting the possibility that FD looked at weak Mac sales and said 'meh', this gives them an easy out, and they've already fulfilled their commitment to delivering a Mac version of the game. But given Apple's past choices: getting rid of expansion slots for GPUs, fitting low/mid end mobile GPUs, letting OpenGL stagnate; I put the blame squarely on them.
All this may be so.
In which case FD should have made it clear to the macOS community that it all hangs on OpenGL. But they didn't, they've said that other options have been considered and failed on technical not cost grounds.
Since December 2015 they won't say anything at all.
15 days 17 hours until the start of E3. https://countingdownto.com/countdown/e3-2017-11-june-2017-countdown-clock-0
Any ideas on which day we'll hear something?
Any ideas on which day we'll hear something?
Well, I guess one could argue "Metal is such a different API/framework, it would take a lot of effort to port the game to, and maintain and expand the game on" could be seen as a technical, or cost argument.
Ultimately I don't think anything meaningful has changed, so there's not much to say. Then again, considering the thread that this is, a "the situation hasn't changed. We are monitoring the API landscape to evaluate our Mac development options going forward" message wouldn't be any harm, even if it is ultimately unsatisfying.
If it was like previous times, we effectively got all the headline news on day 1 and then more detailed info over then next couple of days.
![[VR] optimal_909](https://forums-cdn.zaonce.net/data/avatars/m/109/109067.jpg?1553781733){kind=avatar}
Repped for the effort of actually detailing what you meant, and you made fair points. And I definitely support any improvement in point 8..
But it certainly sounds like you think the very basics are wrong with this game, and in this case you're up to a major disappointment - it is unlikely, that the whole BGS and all activites are up to a major overhaul, I think we can agree in that. Therefore it begs the question: why aren't you simply give it up?
Very pleased to read this - think it is the right call
The game is beautiful and has so much potential that could be unleashed if core mechanics and gameplay saw some integration and improvement.
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A whole year of improving the core gameplay.....yet you think they will just ignore the BGS & Power Play? Not sure if you're hopelessly pessimistic, or just trolling.