Tradable modules and ability to jettison it as possible solution to reduce griefing and enhance game.

[Xender]

Tradable modules and ability to jettison it as possible solution to reduce griefing and enhance game.

At the begging we should ask: Why griefers griefing?

I think they doing it because they like random encounters with players, they like hunting and participate in unpredictable scenarios. So why they killing their victims rather than stealing their cargo? It is because their cargo is not worthy enough. Commodities in Elite are mediocre items, not worthy enough, not unique and without purpose, in EVE Online from the other hand there are many valuable items, unique modules, goods usable in crafting etc. and value of everything is driven by economy regulated demand and supply.

In my opinion introduction of more advanced item system could solve or at least reduce problem of griefing (of course it will make game much more interesting). There are few points which I want to describe:

1. Commodities should have their role in the game, not all of course. Some minerals should be possible to turn into crafting materials. Some electronic parts should be usable for module crafting etc...
2. There should be player-drive markets, where players can place their offers of engineered modules, altered ships, and other (introduced in future) customised items. Crafting goods also should be tradable. Thanks to that game economy will be much more living.
3. Ability to freely exchange items between players when both of them are docked to station.

Ok at this point we have system similar to mmo auction houses or EVE Online markets - player driven economy. How it will reduce griefing? There are few another things which will help!

1. Replacing module transfer with possibility to haul modules in ship cargo hold. You are still able to move your modules but you need to do it at your own or you may create "Transport Contract" for other players. Just imagine that players convoys created in order to move their modules safely.
2. Ability to jesttison optional modules - weapons, sensors, fuel scope etc.

Thanks to that piracy will be profitable enough to make it interesting. And instead of killing someone which will destroy him and all his modules you may ask him for his VALUABLE engineered modules from cargo hold or optional modules used by him like a weapons.


Of course all modules transported in cargo hold are not covered by insurance.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Introducing new ways for players to take even more from their targets is unlikely to reduce griefing.

.... and there'd be nothing stopping the attacker destroying the target after they'd dropped.

 

[Xender]

Most of the peoples which complain against grefing are victims of mindless shooting for fun, there is no piracy, looting etc. just killing. However if possible loot for not killing someone will be more valuable, they may end only at shooting few times and then picking up the loot. Purpose of this topic is not to reduce PVP encounters, but making it more reasonable and piracy driven, not mindless killing driven .

 

[Robert Maynard]

Most of the peoples which complain against grefing are victims of mindless shooting for fun, there is no piracy, looting etc. just killing. However if possible loot for not killing someone will be more valuable, they may end only at shooting few times and then picking up the loot. Purpose of this topic is not to reduce PVP encounters, but making it more reasonable and piracy driven, not mindless killing driven .

Ah - so it's to give a reason for the attacker to attack the target (any target, not just those carrying cargo that could be dropped - this proposal would make any ship a target for extortion) so that the target can't complain that the attack was for no reason?

That's not likely to improve the population of Open....

 

[Xender]

Still I hope that the loot may satisfy the griefers. They will pickup the loot and go away. If they destroy the ship, loot will be destroyed also.
In order to protect victim from situation where he is destroyed even after dropping loot, modules may be droped in special containers which will destroy content if the victim ship is destroyed in the next few minutes.

 

[RhymeRhyme]

At the begging we should ask: Why griefers griefing?

I think they doing it because they like random encounters with players, they like hunting and participate in unpredictable scenarios. So why they killing their victims rather than stealing their cargo? It is because their cargo is not worthy enough. Commodities in Elite are mediocre items, not worthy enough, not unique and without purpose, in EVE Online from the other hand there are many valuable items, unique modules, goods usable in crafting etc. and value of everything is driven by economy regulated demand and supply.

In my opinion introduction of more advanced item system could solve or at least reduce problem of griefing (of course it will make game much more interesting). There are few points which I want to describe:

1. Commodities should have their role in the game, not all of course. Some minerals should be possible to turn into crafting materials. Some electronic parts should be usable for module crafting etc...
2. There should be player-drive markets, where players can place their offers of engineered modules, altered ships, and other (introduced in future) customised items. Crafting goods also should be tradable. Thanks to that game economy will be much more living.
3. Ability to freely exchange items between players when both of them are docked to station.

Ok at this point we have system similar to mmo auction houses or EVE Online markets - player driven economy. How it will reduce griefing? There are few another things which will help!

1. Replacing module transfer with possibility to haul modules in ship cargo hold. You are still able to move your modules but you need to do it at your own or you may create "Transport Contract" for other players. Just imagine that players convoys created in order to move their modules safely.
2. Ability to jesttison optional modules - weapons, sensors, fuel scope etc.

Thanks to that piracy will be profitable enough to make it interesting. And instead of killing someone which will destroy him and all his modules you may ask him for his VALUABLE engineered modules from cargo hold or optional modules used by him like a weapons.


Of course all modules transported in cargo hold are not covered by insurance.

I like the ideas. Would give player interaction a new dimension and would take away the useless grind for Engineered equipment. I would rather pay 50 to 200 mio. credits for an engineered module than spending 20+ hours in grinding and then rng it.

We need more player interaction and stuff trading and more impact of our gameplay related to the overall game.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Still I hope that the loot may satisfy the griefers. They will pickup the loot and go away. If they destroy the ship, loot will be destroyed also.
In order to protect victim from situation where he is destroyed even after dropping loot, modules may be droped in special containers which will destroy content if the victim ship is destroyed in the next few minutes.

Griefers are probably less concerned with loot than they are with extracting salt...

.... and the actual griefer would then be able to grief both the original attacker and the target by destroying the targeted player after they dropped a module - leaving the original attacker with nothing.

 

[Xender]

Robert, I have question for you:
Do you agree that these problem exist:
1. Lack of punishment for griefing?
2. No real purpose/profit from PVP other than fun from ruining someone's game.

If you agree please propose some solution

 

[Robert Maynard]

Robert, I have question for you:
Do you agree that these problem exist:
1. Lack of punishment for griefing?
2. No real purpose/profit from PVP other than fun from ruining someone's game.

If you agree please propose some solution

1. Yes.
2. Profit from PvP is related to losses for the target. Why should the target be "punished" to make a play-style more attractive? Why should PvP "piracy" be more profitable than PvE piracy?

 

[Xender]

1. Yes.
2. Profit from PvP is related to losses for the target. Why should the target be "punished" to make a play-style more attractive? Why should PvP "piracy" be more profitable than PvE piracy?

2. Yes, profit from PVP is coupled to losses for target - game cannot print money because it will be exploited. PvP piracy should be more profitable, because in online games the players are responsible for creating most interesting content. Hunting npc, farming at RES or CZ is boring and is typical grind. Consider that:

A. PVE money making - stacking massacre mission and going to CZ. How much are you able to earn per one hour? 100 millions?
B. PVP money making - You spend few hours in order to find victim, your only profit is few commodities which are not worthy enough to compete with PVE money making.

It is also important that PVP is quite random, you never now when you find your victim. Maybe this time victim will survive and you will lose? That kind of unpredictability should effect in kind of unpredictable financial outcome and this is possible only by looting something more valuable than commodity. In current system your MAX income from piracy is fixed at MAX_CARGO_SPACE * PAINITE_PRICE in the best case. So if someone like to maximise outcome of his efforts like typical pvper (have the best meta ship, earn money as fast as he can) there are no reason for pvp other than breaking someone's toy, this is the only true outcome which will influence enough you victim.

Of course there might be arranged PVP, tournaments and trainings, still this wont replace random sandbox pvp encounters, and yes there is no real reason for random pvp other than being bad for someone because you like it. Of course making it valuable wont fix it, but it may give reason to some players for more piracy driven PVP rather than bullying driven PVP.

 

[Robert Maynard]

2. Yes, profit from PVP is coupled to losses for target - game cannot print money because it will be exploited. PvP piracy should be more profitable, because in online games the players are responsible for creating most interesting content. Hunting npc, farming at RES or CZ is boring and is typical grind. Consider that:

A. PVE money making - stacking massacre mission and going to CZ. How much are you able to earn per one hour? 100 millions?
B. PVP money making - You spend few hours in order to find victim, your only profit is few commodities which are not worthy enough to compete with PVE money making.

It is also important that PVP is quite random, you never now when you find your victim. Maybe this time victim will survive and you will lose? That kind of unpredictability should effect in kind of unpredictable financial outcome and this is possible only by looting something more valuable than commodity. In current system your MAX income from piracy is fixed at MAX_CARGO_SPACE * PAINITE_PRICE in the best case. So if someone like to maximise outcome of his efforts like typical pvper (have the best meta ship, earn money as fast as he can) there are no reason for pvp other than breaking someone's toy, this is the only true outcome which will influence enough you victim.

Of course there might be arranged PVP, tournaments and trainings, still this wont replace random sandbox pvp encounters, and yes there is no real reason for random pvp other than being bad for someone because you like it. Of course making it valuable wont fix it, but it may give reason to some players for more piracy driven PVP rather than bullying driven PVP.

While piracy is a role, it is entirely reliant on the cargo being carried by the target.

It is not a surprise that PvP piracy is not particularly profitable in a game that is not designed with PvP as the focus.

Neither is it surprising that players don't drop "loot" (cargo, materials, data, Exploration data) on destruction - as to do so would encourage PKing.

 

[Xender]

I must agree that Elite design concept doesn't suit me expectations . Still right now there is no other online space sim with dynamic combat. ;(

However! In my opinion better loot may effect in less mindless kills. I think peoples who aren't interested in pvp still wont be, so this wont increase amount of PK.

 

[metatheurgist]

Nope, the people killing players for fun already got their payment. They don't care about in game profit at all.