No, I mean I literally have no idea how many people are in it. Or any private groups for that matter, is it big? I think the Ed playerbase is circa 2mill right?
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No, I mean I literally have no idea how many people are in it. Or any private groups for that matter, is it big? I think the Ed playerbase is circa 2mill right?
Not passing comment on anyone's motivation for pvp, I will say bullying is not cool, but it's so rare in games I can't think of any example of bullying I have ever heard of in ED. Can you think of an example of players houding a specific individual for out of game reasons?
What I was doing was passing comment on the OP, why people don't like pvp. Liking something refers to an emotional state, so the answer has to be based in emotion too.
Your post was obviously passing comment on motivation. Also your definition of bullying seems to differ from mine.
I don't think it's unpopular as much as it has a high entrance fee (need to be able to afford rebuys and need to be able to engineer those ships) and requires a lot more skill than in most games. Every game has more casuals than hardcore players, and because of said entry requirements the rift between hardcore pvp-ers and everyone else is even wider. However the PvP community itself isn't going anywhere.
Ok let me correct it then I was passing comment on the motivation for not liking pvp, the comment I replied to seemed to be about something else entirely
Bullying? It's nebulous but clearly pvp is not bullying in a game built around ship combat. Singling out a single player for it repeatedly might be if it was done to hurt them, outside of the game, but seeing as how we are all anonymous avatars that's a real stretch.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Frontier implemented a consequence free balanced PvP addition to the game - however it seems to be rather unpopular....
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Pvp is nothing for me and my friends. So we almost never play in Open-Play and only Pve, since Pvp is often confused with groundless raids and senseless destroying of harmless ships. In my opinion, Pvp is something for young turkeys. I'd rather be with each other instead of against each other. But this is just my own opinion.
Ok let me correct it then I was passing comment on the motivation for not liking pvp, the comment I replied to seemed to be about something else entirely
Bullying? It's nebulous but clearly pvp is not bullying in a game built around ship combat. Singling out a single player for it repeatedly might be if it was done to hurt them, outside of the game, but seeing as how we are all anonymous avatars that's a real stretch.
The let's dispense with the shades of grey. If we are talking about PvP between dedicated groups then great, no problem, but your comment wasn't about that at all.
Your comment was about unsolicited PvP and that is where the bullying term came from. Attacking new players consistently in overpowered ships just "cos" and "yer! Git gud or get out" is what we are talking about, isn't it?
As usual however your posts offer little to the debate and is just needling for the sake of it. Personally i think it is because you know he is right and have no counter
<damn... i do realise a certain hypocrisy of my own in this post
Hey, I offer reason to my arguments a lot of the time.
On the other hand, there's only so many times you can see the same rhetorical practically copied/pasted and still assign any seriousness to it.
As it happens, the reasons that many of the more reasonable folk here are putting forward for their PvP aversion are, in sentiment, shared as irritations by PvPers. Lack of reasons to engage, lack of diversity in engagements, poor instancing, rubbish c/p, cheated modules...all the above have been irksome to many of the game's most dedicated duellers. It's not the "main" reason PvP has a low following on the forums (honestly PvP is more active in game than the forum will let you believe), but for anyone to say PvP is perfect would be lying.
So really I can't add much more than reminding everyone of the role of hysteria, and despite the reasonable intentions of OP, watching certain forumites break out the old "everyone should hate PvP!" rhetorics
Of course it is. You can't use your own ships and builds and the balance and dynamics of fights are totally different to main game. It's ok for a few minutes worth of derp fest but why FD thought making it so different to combat in the main game is a good idea us beyond me.
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No, my comment was about how people feel about pvp organised, unorganised, group or single. People don't have to like pvp when it is organised just as people don't have to hate it when it is unsolicited.
I never mentioned unsolicited or bullying
I don't know where you have gotten git gud from or seal clubbing?I was talking about fight or flight, you know the hardwired response evolved into humans and its fallout. You wanna see that as talk about bullying or gitting gud feel free friend
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Because PVP sucks - it's rotating in space and that's pretty much all it is. On top of that, you have to grind RNGineers so you have that boredom to get passed before you can even enter PVP combat. They pretty much ruined PVP after they introduced the health potions know as SCB's - why did we need to elongate battles? Once you been in one PVP fight one on one - you've pretty much been in them all as long as you both know what you're doing and the settings are boring - it's always in a void and now with RNGineers, it can take an hour to get to a point where one of you has to break off - an hour.... and you don't get to blow them up.
IL2 on the other hand you can be dead in seconds and that was a perfectly fun game to play. ED lacks pretty much everything that would make you want t oPVP in the first place except for die hards. Who wants 30 minute fights? Who wants to grind for weeks? Who wants it to basically be a tie where you never blow your opponent up he just runs out of SCB's or whatever the meta is now and then hyperjumps safely away?
It's boring. The setting is boring and there's no risk - literally no risk even if you die - you just hit a rebuy screen but a trip or 2 to quince will sort that out.
On top of that.... as if that wasn't enough, we all know now of the huge exploit that's been going on a year that allow people to cheat on their ship mods.
Is anyone sure that this cheat is the only one out there? This one was hidden for a year apparently.
There's numerous reasons why people won't PVP in ED - mostly because most people don't want to - we prefer to be cooperable as a species and work towards goals (that's how we are where we are today because we work together) so the PVP crowd wil lalways be in the minority but ED doesn't do a single thing to make it acceissible or interesting.
IL2 on the other hand you can be dead in seconds and that was a perfectly fun game to play. ED lacks pretty much everything that would make you want t oPVP in the first place except for die hards. Who wants 30 minute fights? Who wants to grind for weeks? Who wants it to basically be a tie where you never blow your opponent up he just runs out of SCB's or whatever the meta is now and then hyperjumps safely away?
It's boring. The setting is boring and there's no risk - literally no risk even if you die - you just hit a rebuy screen but a trip or 2 to quince will sort that out.
On top of that.... as if that wasn't enough, we all know now of the huge exploit that's been going on a year that allow people to cheat on their ship mods.
Is anyone sure that this cheat is the only one out there? This one was hidden for a year apparently.
There's numerous reasons why people won't PVP in ED - mostly because most people don't want to - we prefer to be cooperable as a species and work towards goals (that's how we are where we are today because we work together) so the PVP crowd wil lalways be in the minority but ED doesn't do a single thing to make it acceissible or interesting.
Deleted member 38366
D
True, because it lacks just a few critical ingridients :
- all our actual Ships we know from the Main game, using the actual mechanics
- it's not part of the Main Game (need to quit to Menu and launch the separate Game)
- a Scenario editor or a large set of preset Scenarios Players and Groups of Players can battle it out inside
If it was a full-scale Simulator and integrated better in the Main Game, it wouldn't have suffered the fate it did.
I think noone expected a Gamey "Quake III Arena - Space Edition" with PowerUps when CQC was initially hinted to...
For this kind of setup-fun under "Full Simulator Conditions", we Players always have to wait for a Beta to start.
The Betas are actually far more "CQC" and popular as Playgrounds than the actual CQC ever was
And that knowledge is something that holds alot of potential for Frontier, if only they realized it. Could even be used to fully revive CQC in a heartbeat...
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Hey, I offer reason to my arguments a lot of the time.
On the other hand, there's only so many times you can see the same rhetorical practically copied/pasted and still assign any seriousness to it.
As it happens, the reasons that many of the more reasonable folk here are putting forward for their PvP aversion are, in sentiment, shared as irritations by PvPers. Lack of reasons to engage, lack of diversity in engagements, poor instancing, rubbish c/p, cheated modules...all the above have been irksome to many of the game's most dedicated duellers. It's not the "main" reason PvP has a low following on the forums (honestly PvP is more active in game than the forum will let you believe), but for anyone to say PvP is perfect would be lying.
So really I can't add much more than reminding everyone of the role of hysteria, and despite the reasonable intentions of OP, watching certain forumites break out the old "everyone should hate PvP!" rhetorics
please see my edit.. once more i appologise (i was hoping i got it in in time before you saw it
)
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My theory....
Most PVP games are set up just for that one purpose, PVP. Take any of the stock shooter games like CoD or Battlefield, there is nothing else to do in this game but PVP and everyone who buys the game knows this when they make the purchase and start a multiplayer game. When you die you spawn instantly with no penalty other than to your score K/D ratio .
With most MMOs there is more variety of tasks and things to do however combat is usually central to the gameplay and although you can set up your characters according to what mode you play, combat is a big part of it. Again most MMOs have consensual PVP, you need to be on the right server, activate a PVP mode or tag but you tend to get the choice as to when and if you PVP. There is also the fact that dying in in an MMO has few if any consequences other than you might spawn a distance away from where you died but you don't lose much in the way of progress or currency.
In ED you have a wide variety of things to do that have nothing whatsoever to do with combat, trading, exploring, missions etc. A player could spend their entire life in ED quite successfully without ever fitting a weapon to their ship or even having shields. Once you are in open however there are no rules, a player could attack you without warning and quite happily destroy your ship for no other reason than 'you were there'. This non-consensual PVP is at the heart of the problem. Yes it can make it exciting but it can also increase the levels of stress when all you want to do is some trading. The hostile NPC's are fairly easy to avoid if you know what you are doing.
Then there is the problem of outfitting, even if you want to PVP and invest a lot of time in building & engineering a PVP ship it's not a level playing field, you can face another highly engineered ship that is just bigger / better than yours, or could could face a wing of players. Much of the time I'd imagine PVP is not a fight at all but one player or a wing of players tooled up for PVP beating up on someone just trying to get away. Finding a decent fight is probably not easy. Then there is the rebuy, it can be expensive if you've spent days grinding to get your ship together.
I like PvP games, I play them a lot, Planetside 2, Battlefield, ARMA3 etc. I get the experience I want from those games and I'm happy with that. ED is not a game I would ever PVP in other than CQC which is the CoD mode for ED and as such you know exactly what you are getting, shame nobody plays it because it's really good.
When I play ED i'm looking for an entirely different gaming experience, one I can dictate. If I want to explore I'll do that, if I want combat, I'll go to a RES site or run some combat missions or CQC, but I get to decide not someone else. That's why I play in solo or in a private group because I get to decide what I do and I'm not having to constantly 'watch my six' for some itchy trigger finger. I have a feeling I'm not alone in this.
Most PVP games are set up just for that one purpose, PVP. Take any of the stock shooter games like CoD or Battlefield, there is nothing else to do in this game but PVP and everyone who buys the game knows this when they make the purchase and start a multiplayer game. When you die you spawn instantly with no penalty other than to your score K/D ratio .
With most MMOs there is more variety of tasks and things to do however combat is usually central to the gameplay and although you can set up your characters according to what mode you play, combat is a big part of it. Again most MMOs have consensual PVP, you need to be on the right server, activate a PVP mode or tag but you tend to get the choice as to when and if you PVP. There is also the fact that dying in in an MMO has few if any consequences other than you might spawn a distance away from where you died but you don't lose much in the way of progress or currency.
In ED you have a wide variety of things to do that have nothing whatsoever to do with combat, trading, exploring, missions etc. A player could spend their entire life in ED quite successfully without ever fitting a weapon to their ship or even having shields. Once you are in open however there are no rules, a player could attack you without warning and quite happily destroy your ship for no other reason than 'you were there'. This non-consensual PVP is at the heart of the problem. Yes it can make it exciting but it can also increase the levels of stress when all you want to do is some trading. The hostile NPC's are fairly easy to avoid if you know what you are doing.
Then there is the problem of outfitting, even if you want to PVP and invest a lot of time in building & engineering a PVP ship it's not a level playing field, you can face another highly engineered ship that is just bigger / better than yours, or could could face a wing of players. Much of the time I'd imagine PVP is not a fight at all but one player or a wing of players tooled up for PVP beating up on someone just trying to get away. Finding a decent fight is probably not easy. Then there is the rebuy, it can be expensive if you've spent days grinding to get your ship together.
I like PvP games, I play them a lot, Planetside 2, Battlefield, ARMA3 etc. I get the experience I want from those games and I'm happy with that. ED is not a game I would ever PVP in other than CQC which is the CoD mode for ED and as such you know exactly what you are getting, shame nobody plays it because it's really good.
When I play ED i'm looking for an entirely different gaming experience, one I can dictate. If I want to explore I'll do that, if I want combat, I'll go to a RES site or run some combat missions or CQC, but I get to decide not someone else. That's why I play in solo or in a private group because I get to decide what I do and I'm not having to constantly 'watch my six' for some itchy trigger finger. I have a feeling I'm not alone in this.
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please see my edit.. once more i appologise (i was hoping i got it in in time before you saw it
No worries bud, no salt was spilled in the making of these posts
I won't do PvP mainly because I'm more of a PvE guy instead.
But also because there's no reason for it. You gain nothing, unless someone has a huge bounty, or some cargo you want.
If there was an in-game "bring your own ship" PvP tournament, with modified and unmodified classes, and no rebuy, that'd be fun.
But other than that, the majority of PvP in ED is wings of overpowered ships taking on traders and other PvE ships that stand no chance.
But also because there's no reason for it. You gain nothing, unless someone has a huge bounty, or some cargo you want.
If there was an in-game "bring your own ship" PvP tournament, with modified and unmodified classes, and no rebuy, that'd be fun.
But other than that, the majority of PvP in ED is wings of overpowered ships taking on traders and other PvE ships that stand no chance.
Played some CQC last night, full rooms even. Everyone seemed pretty into it. There were a couple close games that turned around in the last moments. Then everyone switched to all vs all and had fun, again. It needs more modes and more ties to main game, but it's a PvP mode that is balanced and some really good pilots. Anyone who says there is no skill in it hasn't tried to stay on the tail of a really good FA off pilot flying those SLFs. There was a guy breaking my line of sight lock everytime. I'd love to name and FAME him, but don't have the match history....
The challenge is not PvP is not popular, the challenge is PvP is extreme.
If a player that usually interacts with NPCs doing missions, Bounty Hunting or Combat Zones then interacts with a PvP player then 9 times ot of 10 the PvE player will be at teh rebuy screen.
PvP loadouts differ to PvE loadouts, so unless everyone runs a PvP ship the interactions will always be onesided.
The other aspect is that Engineers radically change a ship loadout by making things more powerful or even Over Powered when in a Player v Player encounter, so to survive a player potentially has to change their playstyle to be more PvP and spend alot of time grinding engineers to tweak their ship to be able to survive, which unless you enjoy PvP is boring grind.
I was in Beta over weekend and after doing my duty of buzzing around the ruins I took my PvE Conda with turreted weapons and ship launched fighters and interdicted a Cutter (I thought I would be eating rebuy screen but its beta and what the heck). They just sat there as I unloaded hot laser death for 4 minutes and only ate into 1 ring before he popped a shield cell, I joked that this might take a hour, to wich they replied lol yeah! by this time local authorities had arrived and pounded me before I high waked.
Now my Conda is set up for Multi-pew and it holds its own in CZs, but the player I attempted to PvP could have quite easily just pwnd me as I was very inadequate in the damage dept.
Afterwards, i did scratch my head and think what is the buzz about PvP when if you get against the "wrong" player ie. one who knows his engineering, you are on a hiding to nothing.
Was CqC too balanced/clinical that the PvP fix wasn't being provided, ie. part of this is having a overpowered ship and whupping people, or customising a ship and using its unique spec to whup people?
I think the challenge is that to people not geared up for PvP the interaction is one sided and the losses are more than just the 5% rebuy (its the cargo/missions/exploration data lost), if some of the latter was recoverable then the loss may be less of an annoyance.
Thinking about it the whole issue is that PvP in FPS games is die and respawn, die and respawn etc. So you can do it a lot and learn from your mistakes. But as alot of elite is sloooow progression and some progression is lost on rebuy there is not a lot of incentive to take part for thsoe heavily invested in that progression (hence combat logging, or setting up a PG that explicitly bans PvP, or the whole Hotel California thread).
If PvP where players could tweak loadouts and regularly get some action could occur in the game in a way that gives them their fix, but also allows others to have the opportunity to avoid by in game mechanics (not just mode swapping or CLOGing). Maybe player only CZ's? Combat Systems, PvP CGs, PvP missions? Something that people who want that experience can do so?
I think PvP should be part of Elite, but teh tools that allow a PvPer to dominate (ie.engineers) be reviewed as well as gameplay opportunities in teh form of PvP missions/CGs or Combat zones be investigated....
If a player that usually interacts with NPCs doing missions, Bounty Hunting or Combat Zones then interacts with a PvP player then 9 times ot of 10 the PvE player will be at teh rebuy screen.
PvP loadouts differ to PvE loadouts, so unless everyone runs a PvP ship the interactions will always be onesided.
The other aspect is that Engineers radically change a ship loadout by making things more powerful or even Over Powered when in a Player v Player encounter, so to survive a player potentially has to change their playstyle to be more PvP and spend alot of time grinding engineers to tweak their ship to be able to survive, which unless you enjoy PvP is boring grind.
I was in Beta over weekend and after doing my duty of buzzing around the ruins I took my PvE Conda with turreted weapons and ship launched fighters and interdicted a Cutter (I thought I would be eating rebuy screen but its beta and what the heck). They just sat there as I unloaded hot laser death for 4 minutes and only ate into 1 ring before he popped a shield cell, I joked that this might take a hour, to wich they replied lol yeah! by this time local authorities had arrived and pounded me before I high waked.
Now my Conda is set up for Multi-pew and it holds its own in CZs, but the player I attempted to PvP could have quite easily just pwnd me as I was very inadequate in the damage dept.
Afterwards, i did scratch my head and think what is the buzz about PvP when if you get against the "wrong" player ie. one who knows his engineering, you are on a hiding to nothing.
Was CqC too balanced/clinical that the PvP fix wasn't being provided, ie. part of this is having a overpowered ship and whupping people, or customising a ship and using its unique spec to whup people?
I think the challenge is that to people not geared up for PvP the interaction is one sided and the losses are more than just the 5% rebuy (its the cargo/missions/exploration data lost), if some of the latter was recoverable then the loss may be less of an annoyance.
Thinking about it the whole issue is that PvP in FPS games is die and respawn, die and respawn etc. So you can do it a lot and learn from your mistakes. But as alot of elite is sloooow progression and some progression is lost on rebuy there is not a lot of incentive to take part for thsoe heavily invested in that progression (hence combat logging, or setting up a PG that explicitly bans PvP, or the whole Hotel California thread).
If PvP where players could tweak loadouts and regularly get some action could occur in the game in a way that gives them their fix, but also allows others to have the opportunity to avoid by in game mechanics (not just mode swapping or CLOGing). Maybe player only CZ's? Combat Systems, PvP CGs, PvP missions? Something that people who want that experience can do so?
I think PvP should be part of Elite, but teh tools that allow a PvPer to dominate (ie.engineers) be reviewed as well as gameplay opportunities in teh form of PvP missions/CGs or Combat zones be investigated....
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