No multiplayer game survives first contact with PvPers.
There are actually 3 Mobius groups, which might actually say something.
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No multiplayer game survives first contact with PvPers.
There are actually 3 Mobius groups, which might actually say something.
If there's no real feel of loss, then where's the challenge? CQC is fun, but at best 'mini game' unfortunately.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
There would seem to be plenty of popular PvP games out there that have virtually no loss on "death" - why does incurring loss for oneself / others matter?
A) Not all games should be the same...?
B) If you really did miss everything in the post you were responding to, a sense of risk and by extension true reward can be exciting, even if you personally prefer the safety of iWin mode. Even some of the non-pro PvP folks enjoy the risk of Open
C) Some people prefer non-arcade style conflict, where harming your opposition - particularly in faction combat in any form - means gaining an edge. Powerplay, in its purest PvP form, could have been an amazing vector for wing PvP if thought out correctly; taking that as an example, combat in an expansion system for instance would be far less meaningful if a player parked in system could just have their 1 bill 'vettes blown up and then just keep launching it ad nauseum from a station a few LS away
May not be what you like, but last I checked, Elite was "play your way". I personally feel like people are far closer to wasting their lives when repeatedly traveling between two close systems to watch their credit counter go up.
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As someone who spent a lot of time in games like WoT and Warthunder i would have to ask that question too.
Completely different games of course, but undoubtedly qualify as PvP games.
I certainly feel challenged plenty in them, and without incurring gut wrenching losses which potentially nullify weeks of previously spent game time.
Nothing against games which do that, but it certainly isn't a prerequisite for challenging PvP, let alone entertaining PvP.
Said it in other threads in one form or another, but ill quickly recap.
Two elements i'm fine with for PvP in games are 1) skill and 2) an element of luck.
I'll never be happy with a PvP in a game that means one person can have a superior position to the other from the start of the encounter. In EDs case this means someone can have the advantage in combat just because they are flying a better ship, either engineered or pre-engineers, there was always an imbalance. Also never a fan of permanant loss. You lose credits, you have to get those credits back. Not fun for me. I like doing PvE for the PvE, not as a focus to restore lost credits from PvP. A good PvP game should reset after every round/match/game, so every time, everyone is back on the same playing level.
Its one thing i don't like about CQC. Its fairly good, but some of those upgrades you get as you level up are too much of upgrades and not alternatives/sidegrades.
Two elements i'm fine with for PvP in games are 1) skill and 2) an element of luck.
I'll never be happy with a PvP in a game that means one person can have a superior position to the other from the start of the encounter. In EDs case this means someone can have the advantage in combat just because they are flying a better ship, either engineered or pre-engineers, there was always an imbalance. Also never a fan of permanant loss. You lose credits, you have to get those credits back. Not fun for me. I like doing PvE for the PvE, not as a focus to restore lost credits from PvP. A good PvP game should reset after every round/match/game, so every time, everyone is back on the same playing level.
Its one thing i don't like about CQC. Its fairly good, but some of those upgrades you get as you level up are too much of upgrades and not alternatives/sidegrades.
As you say, people like to see the galaxy and play the game.
Unfortunately the outfitting system in ED, gives a huge combat advantage to ships that are unsuited to fly around the galaxy and do 'in game' stuff.
In addition, combat capability of a ship is heavily linked to long-time progression.
Spending a huge amount of time on building a ship that is useless for most aspects of the game, isn't something that appeals to most players. In fact it only appeals to those that see PvP combat as a goal in it self. Even they do it because they have to, not because they want to.
If PvP is going to gain popularity it has to become an integrated part of the game, not an exclusive sideshow for enthusiasts. It has to have in-game incentives and it has to be way less advantage from mini maxing for PvP.
I have always liked PvP games and even did some low level tournaments in BE2. I've played mostly in Open since Gamma and been 'open to PvP'. By open to PvP, I mean that I don't attack anyone unless the game gives me a reason. If attacked, I run when I don't think I will win.
My PvP tally after almost 3 years is 0 kills and 0 deaths. That is how natural PvP comes to this game.
I'm an Introvert. I don't play games with others in real-life, why would you expect me to play with others in Elite?
No interest in playing with others and from comments made in other posts, I'm not the only introvert playing Elite either.
That is one of the things that is so appealing about Elite, you can play your way and I can play mine and never the twain shall meet.
No interest in playing with others and from comments made in other posts, I'm not the only introvert playing Elite either.
That is one of the things that is so appealing about Elite, you can play your way and I can play mine and never the twain shall meet.
Oh definitely perhaps I should be clear, there's no sense of loss or gain in winning a CQC match, in my opinion, it feels like a fun little mini game, without any impact, which is fine, but when it is competing with the main game itself? yeah.
There is no sense of achievement/loss either or, you don't feel like you've accomplished anything with CQC other then had fun, where many other PvP games make you feel 'something' in whatever way they do it.
And on the flip side, in the main game, if the sense of loss is so great, because you had absolutely no chance, because the attacker extremely out powered you, makes people dislike PvP. It is a balance, yes, though I neder understood what people are getting from killing someone that requires no effort to kill.
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There are many threads like these already, but this is my take on it...
I just don't care about interacting with other humans.
I play games to get away from the real world and the nonsense of my fellow primates.
I want to immerse myself in another universe and I do not want to experience the aggravation of other people's bull'poop'. There is enough of that in real life.
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Some great responses and a picture is forming.
Most players did not buy Elite for PvP
PvP is a massive Grind - or Hack
The only way you can have Great PvP fun is if you have a Cutter setup for PvP with God Rolled Mods
If your ship is fitted with any of the following - SRV, Mining Laser, Discovery Scanner, Surface Scanner anything other than a A module then you are not ready to interact with a PvP player.
It seems in fact, if you 'play your way' then you are not equipped for PvP
I think PvP would be more popular if you could take your PvP ship into Arena - Heck I would probably have a go at that with my battle conda haha don't laugh But I could build one that would be useless at PvE but pretty good at PvP when I got the urge to Pew Pew.
Maybe if FD expended arena to cater for your ships then PvP players would be able to guarantee fun time in PvP mode well away from PvE?
Most players did not buy Elite for PvP
PvP is a massive Grind - or Hack
The only way you can have Great PvP fun is if you have a Cutter setup for PvP with God Rolled Mods
If your ship is fitted with any of the following - SRV, Mining Laser, Discovery Scanner, Surface Scanner anything other than a A module then you are not ready to interact with a PvP player.
It seems in fact, if you 'play your way' then you are not equipped for PvP
I think PvP would be more popular if you could take your PvP ship into Arena - Heck I would probably have a go at that with my battle conda haha don't laugh
But I could build one that would be useless at PvE but pretty good at PvP when I got the urge to Pew Pew.Maybe if FD expended arena to cater for your ships then PvP players would be able to guarantee fun time in PvP mode well away from PvE?
When I started playing this game I wanted to become a PvP bounty hunter. Quickly noticed that this game isn't designed around PvP and does a lot to discourage PvP. Found out that PvE activities are a lot of fun in this game.
The restriction of bounties to 1 Mcr and showing CMDRs as clean in all systems except the one the bounty was issued completely removed any semblance of a PvP being part of the game. I stopped caring about PvP at that point.
I could go to CGs and blow up traders, but that's even easier than blowing up a few NPCs in a RES.
TLDR:
This game isn't designed for PvP.
All the young dudes?
Yes but people play ED for very different reasons...some play to relax, some to shoot and some just to have a look at the cosmos, it's not for you to decide what is a waste of time. I'd say that some self styled pirate just wanting to kill defenseless traders for the lulz is wasting not only their time but the time of most people they encounter....but that is just my opinion.
I think the problem is the ED has a vast number of ways to spend your time and everyone wants / gets something different from the game. Forcing one aspect of the gameplay onto everyone is not what many of us signed up for.....you are quite right when you say 'play your own way'.
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haha Stitch!
Well, I didn't really get further than the first page before I formulated my own answer.. I pulled your reply out above because it sort of rings true, even if a little off the mark a bit!
So I was eternally put off PvP playing EVE online. That game endorses PvP so far that entire swathes of the game are unavailable if you stay in higher (supposedly safer) security areas. BUT then the PvP eccentricity of the EVE universe takes a more sinister swing, and it's this swing that is entirely contradictory with my ethos, and personality. Therefore rendering the game unplayable for me, even if the concept and actual potential of the game is utterly fantastic.
When you get a PvP oriented game, you ultimately attract a certain nature of gamer. PvE co-op games tend to bring people together, work together for a common goal. In Elite Dangerous, Mobius has tried to accomplish this (as far as the mechanics allow), I always subscribed to that the backdrop of Elite Dangerous is that mankind has breached the barriers of technological limitation.. Mankind is preparing for the most adventurous proposition yet.. Exploration of the milky way galaxy. It's this philosophy that attracted me to ED. FDEV provided me the game modes to avoid everything I despised in EvE. In EvE there is no let up. There is no reprieve. If you log off to go to sleep in EvE, the next time you log in... everything has been attacked, and you know all that you worked for is trash.
PvP games bring out the worst in human nature. Conflict between factions, people, races and religion is rife enough in the world, without trying to endorse it further in games, or somehow accepting that human nature is entirely compatible inside a computer game. It isn't. Take this for example.. It's what happens when PvP takes on a whole new dimension, what kind of person takes self righteous prophecy FROM A GAME so far that they come up with this: http://www.minerbumping.com/p/the-code.html
ED is clear proof of the fact that PvPers with direct human conflict in mind dominate. When it is no longer safe, or the perception that it is not safe in ones minds eye, then the human instinct is to seek sanctuary, or simply move on to somewhere or something that is safe.
Circling back to what Stitch said.. the fox among the chicks causes a level of hysteria. Some of us play games to avoid this side of human nature. Ergo we finally answer the OP question. Why is PvP not popular in ED? For me, it's because it's against my ethos to cause harm, and suffering to another being of intellectual self awareness. Not in real life, and not to another player sitting in real life at another computer in a fantasy setting. There is still another person involved, and that person has feelings. To me attacking someone in the cyber world is equally as bad as in the real world... Hey mugging someone in the street for £1000 imo is as bad as hacking their bank account and taking £1000. They're still violated, and still emotionally suffer as a result.
TLDR: another player is a human being, and if one takes pride in causing distress (salt, for example) then it starts to steer the game in a direction I'm not comfortable with. To a certain degree I'm ok with it... but beyond that, no thank you.. especially considering Elite Dangerous exorbitant prices on being victims in the game. Being victim in ED is ludicrously punishing, with absolutely laughable consequence to the attacker, it feeds salt, and it makes players adversely react, which ultimately the more poisonous players need to make themselves feel better.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Indeed.
Exciting for some, no doubt - tedious and repetitive for some others. The additional risk of Open is very often grossly exaggerated....
It "could have been" - however Frontier chose to implement Powerplay for all players, not just those who prefer PvP.
Indeed - and if playing my way necessitates not playing in Open due to the unwanted attentions of some players then so be it. It hasn't got to that stage yet though.
Introspection man, it's a thing.watching certain forumites break out the old "everyone should hate PvP!" rhetorics
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Except for a PVP'er, all things equal, that extra 0.5% would mean the difference between winning and losing. I don't think they're obsessive, I think that you are forced to go for max rolls because of the obsessive minority out there. Most PVP'ers want an even playing field I think.
Safety is a relative thing. I'm old and decrepit enough that some of the NPC can take me out with ease. Elite still lets me play my game however...
Really not in the mood for round forty of regurgitating the same arguments with you, Rob...so I'll keep this quick.
But FD also DO cater for PvP. Everyone included and all that other loving stuff. And PvP is more alive in game than on the forums.
So it really wouldn't have been too difficult to more intelligently construct aspects of the game such as PP to accommodate everyone. And PP was clearly constructed to have aspects that do work for providing converted PvP. But it's also clear it failed and killed more in the process than it created for benefit...
But unlike the rhetoric, my point is not actually devoid of meaning is it though? Some players enjoy riskless playing.
Exciting for some, no doubt - tedious and repetitive for some others. The additional risk of Open is very often grossly exaggerated....
It "could have been" - however Frontier chose to implement Powerplay for all players, not just those who prefer PvP.
But FD also DO cater for PvP. Everyone included and all that other loving stuff. And PvP is more alive in game than on the forums.
So it really wouldn't have been too difficult to more intelligently construct aspects of the game such as PP to accommodate everyone. And PP was clearly constructed to have aspects that do work for providing converted PvP. But it's also clear it failed and killed more in the process than it created for benefit...
But unlike the rhetoric, my point is not actually devoid of meaning is it though? Some players enjoy riskless playing.
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