PvP Why PvP is not popular in Elite Dangerous?

[Robert Maynard]

I much prefer 'PvP only' instances to any 'Open Only' benefits. Open Only puts things in the hands of the instancing gods and open up for abuse of block lists and network shenanigans.

.... not to mention that the overwhelming majority of Open is risk-identical to the other two game modes - therefore a blanket bonus due to participating in Open would most often be poorly applied.

'PvP only' instances would mean that even if you enter them from Solo or PG, you would end up in a PvP environment. It would give access to 'controlled PvP' even for players that usually stays in Solo.

There could well be some mileage in such a proposal....

 

[kilvenny]

I have no issue with PvP in general. The problem that ED has is a combination of the following
1) Engineers and ship variation creates a huge difference between a combat build and one that isn't
2) There is no way to avoid PvP other than to switch out of open.
3) The cost of rebuy compared to game time to recover the cost.
4) Its a game about trading and travel not at its heart a PvP game
5) ED supports piracy which effectively enables PvP, but does not provide any mechanism to disadvantage the pirate.
6) No cargo loss insurance

The game needs a meaningful crime and punishment system, it needs to provide an ability to ensure ship and cargo from loss and that needs to increase/decrease based on the security of the systems you travel in.

I also believe that proper player faction(guild) mechanics would help, because then PvP becomes faction PvP and conflict can then be triggered by faction v faction events (poi's/conflict zones).

 

[Han_Zen]

No idea. But here is why I don't really do PvP anymore :

1) No in-game justification for it. I mean, when I was playing powerplay, we had to actually tell the other side that we would do a convoy with escort in open. So that something happens...

How easy wouldn't it be for the game to create events like this in PP?

PP faction1: 'We are running a convoys to the Smeg system at 06:00, 12:00 18:00 and 00:00 and on Monday. Sign up to join or protect the convoy'
PP faction2: 'Intelligence reports of incoming enemy convoys to Smeg system at 06:00, 12:00 18:00 and 00:00 and on Monday. Sign up to blockade the system'

Not to difficult, one would think?

 

[Kaltern]

Stop PvP in high security areas. Establish police presence in greater numbers, and respond to attacks within seconds.

Problem solved as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Muetdhiver]

IMO for interesting PvP, FD has many possible Tools available :

1) Make use of powerplay. PP should provide a natural place for meaningfull PvP. If each power had an automatically generated convoy/asset defense/whatnot event per evening/week with a nice merit payout and strong effect on the powers, it would be really cool.
2) Build on the CZ. More like rebuild it. Tug of war mechanic with the flashpoints centered on system (interesting) assets. Toss in some objectives to defend/destroy such as gun platforms, fighter hangars and such,
and tied with a ticket system it could really work well (IMO).
3) Better C&P (curbing the non-sense PvP) tied with reworked piracy and broacasting of the position of player with large bounties when they are out of anarchy systems. (i.e. a working PvP Bounty hunting system).

 

[Urbanski101]

Wow...this thread is moving quickly away from the point, which is why PvP isn't popular.

In bullet points:

• It's non consensual for the most part
• There are no real consequences for 'murder' in ED
• There are some very real consequences to being 'murdered' in ED
• You need to invest serious time and effort to build a viable PvP ship
• The playing field is never level, you have engineering, wings, all different sizes and classes of ships
• The chances of finding a 'fair' fight are remote
• Most PvP actions are in reality one or a group of players beating up less well prepared/invested players
• ED has many ways to play the game and PvP is just one small aspect
• PvP has the ability to directly infringe on the enjoyment of the game for many others
• ED is not well set up for PvP, instancing is a big issue.

There are also the social aspects of PvP and other issues that may 'irritate' non PvP players and impact on it's popularity. One is the attitude of many PvPers is that they are the only ones playing ED, the rest of us are just gutless sheep wasting our time in game. Stich, in your post you say solo/group players can support their chosen faction from the 'sideline'. That is very revealing, we're not on any sideline, we bought this game, same as everyone else and we play it, same as everyone else. The fact you and others of the pro PvP leaning see this as an inferior mode of play is possibly also a source of some irritation.

Then you have the argument that solo players are risk averse, maybe, maybe not. I would counter that with the argument that a fully tooled up lvl5 engineered battle corvette is not taking much or any risk attacking an unarmed or lightly armed trader.

There is also the constant pressure from the pro PvP players to move more non PvP players into open because of the above point and various other arguments, some baseless, some not. The reality of this pressure seems to be borne out of a desire to provide PvPers with a target rich environment.

I'm obviously in the minority when I say I really liked CQC and I'm happy to test my skills against everyone in that environment as it's designed for just that PvP.

Stich, you said it earlier....'play your own way'.

 

[HBK]

PvP is not popular period.

For 10 million LoL players you have 100 million Angry Birds players.

So it's hardly surprising that Elite not being a dedicated PvP game is not PvP focused.

Most players are perfectly happy honing their skills against AI or leaderboards.

Edit : Also, the post above gets it ^

 

[KING5TON]

IMO it's because of several reasons.

The cost of loss is too high.
If I lose my ship then it takes around 2 to 3 hours of grinding to recover the cost.

The barrier to entry is too high.
I've got to have a high end ship which takes weeks of grinding to get and then Engineer that ship which takes weeks of grinding to do.

It has no consequences.
If I kill 1 or 1,000,000 other players it makes pretty much zero difference. I get a wanted status and a bounty which no one will collect.

There's no in game supporting game play.
The only supported PVP in this game is basically ganking. Interdicting and killing player ships that aren't as good as you. Piracy I suppose is supported but it's badly supported without any real reason or reward to pirate.


So for me, I can't be bothered grinding to cover ship loses. I can't be bothered grinding to buy a top tier ship (well I have a Conda already) and upgrade it to Class A modules and then grind for Engineering upgrades (Engineer grind doesn't even bare thinking about, I'm a combat pilot, I don't want to drive an SRV around aimlessly looking for rocks to shoot or sit at a station scanning wakes etc...). If I could be bothered grinding to high heaven to be able to PVP the lack of supporting game play makes me not want to do it.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

The prospect of randomly losing progress doesn't fly with many players, I believe.

 

[GG7]

In the end, it brings nothing to the table. There are plenty of other games out there with a PvP focus that deliver the experience in a much more balanced, dynamic and reliable way.

PvP in ED was a tacked on feature. Anyone who has ever engaged in PvP in this game should have been able to clearly see that.

Then there is the negative perception of the PvP focused players by the other much larger segments of the community.

Derogatory terms like "Hiding in Solo", "Git Gud", "Combat Logger" and many more do nothing to improve the perception of this group of players. You don't find Solo and Private Group focused players spending huge amounts of time on this forum posting complaint threads about other mode choices and how they need to be removed.

The PvPers have dug their own graves with comments like these, and hundreds of threads proclaiming their superior opinions of what the game should be about. The Engineer Exploit was the stake through the heart of these opinions. Proving to many that their original opinions of PvP in ED was right on the money, and their decision to avoid contact with same was the correct course of action.

Its all downhill from here for the PvP community, whether they can see it or not.

 

[SuBSynk]

Instancing.
P2P infrastructure.
Lack of a level playing field.
A community which has no interest in competitive PvP.

I love competitive PvP in a game which is designed for it but ED is not a decent platform for PvP unfortunately.

Instancing & P2P = Long waits for very little action, many sync issues & the lack of a level playing field means you never know if you won through skill or ship strength.

Mostly i enjoy a competitive PvP scene with players that respect each other at least enough for GL HF and GG's. ED is more about toxic players ganking others in a group and calling it PvP than anything competitive.

Some of the PvP players are so starved for action they have forums dedicated to calling out streamers in open just to have something to attack...its all a bit sad really.

Long story short the game was never designed with PvP in mind and it shows.

 

[Sandmann]

Summary – Most players purchased ED to wonder at our galaxy in their own time in their own way. For them PvP is just a waste of time and effort.

I think that sums it up. There's nothing wrong with PvP... but while it does contain a few elements of one this isn't a PvP game. It doesn't do PvP well because it wasn't designed to do so. I want to play Elite... if I wanted to play a PvP game I'd buy a PvP game.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

1 thing i will say.

unless FD offer some way to hopefully rescue our crew this PvP / no PvP is only going to become a bigger problem once FD get around to implementing ships crew like in the DDF.

I lost my almost deadly npc pilot last week and given the 100s of hrs invested in her, it stung.***

take that, and multiply by 8 (which going on memory is the lore number of crew an anaconda needs to fly optimally) and I reckon we could see a scenario where all but those with invincible god ships will be terrified to fly their big ships in open - with good reason.

***note i am NOT asking for invincible crew which spawn with us on destruction like an insurance replacement module either, that would suck balls.

 

[Vorxian]

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease don't try to balance ED for PvP...

It's the best way to smother the fire and just create bellowing smoke.

Impossible to balance PvE and PvP at the same time.

Wasn't it Diablo 3 where blizzard committed to simply concentrate on coop PvE. I remember having like 1m health, but could output 100m damage ticks.. Actually made pvp a laugh, fun to see who could get that first hit. Usually the person that could do off-screen damage wins. But then, when you lost a PvP encounter in D3, you didn't lose 3 weeks of game time... So maybe that made it more fun to mess around..

PvP and PvE just cannot reside inside the same jamjar.

 

[Jex =TE=]

The prospect of randomly losing progress doesn't fly with many players, I believe.

I don't get this part that people keep talking about - do you mean cash? Which is arguably the easiest thing to get in ED.

Other people say "Then I have to spend 3 hours working to get my rebuy back" but what they don't tell you is they have 500 million in their accounts.

it's a non sequitor - the money isn't a thing. It's so trivial it's not worth using as an argument. Nobody is going to go PVP without knowing they might need a rebuy and will thus have all that squared away and can cover the cost.

Having to play "two or three hours" to get money back is.... well that's playing the game. What else are you doing 90% of the time if it isn't making money?

 

[Sandmann]

In one word: hysteria.

You're not answering the question that was asked. You gave an incorrect answer to the question "Why don't people play in open". The correct answer btw is "Because they don't like PvP", which brings us to the original question that you failed to answer: "WHY don't the majority of ED players like PvP?"

 

[Kaa Mchorror]

Remains the question why FD is throwing so much development time into PVP related things if it doesn't work properly in the end and if the PVP centric group is actually that small as most of these answers might suggest?

What was developed for PvP other than CQC? Combat balancing happens in all games even if they are just PvE.

 

[Stigbob]

I don't get this part that people keep talking about - do you mean cash? Which is arguably the easiest thing to get in ED.

Other people say "Then I have to spend 3 hours working to get my rebuy back" but what they don't tell you is they have 500 million in their accounts.

it's a non sequitor - the money isn't a thing. It's so trivial it's not worth using as an argument. Nobody is going to go PVP without knowing they might need a rebuy and will thus have all that squared away and can cover the cost.

Having to play "two or three hours" to get money back is.... well that's playing the game. What else are you doing 90% of the time if it isn't making money?

Not everyone has 500 million in their account, or finds it easy to accrue.

 

[Cmdr Ultra]

"WHY don't the majority of ED players like PvP?"

It's an age group issue really. Elite has an older player base than most games.

Younger generations accept PVP as the norm unlike their more mature Elite brethren.

 

[jhondidfool]

I’ve been trying to understand why the vast majority of people are not interested in PvP in Elite Dangerous.
I’d like your thoughts on it, here are my thoughts.

For me, I like the adventure of discovering ‘what is out there’ now I know content is slim at the moment but the fact remains. I will NEVER get in a spaceship and explore the universe/galaxy in my lifetime as much as would love to. ED gives me the opportunity to do that, find weird systems and sometime amazing glitches that add to the experience.
I’ve never seen Elite as an opportunity to sit in my backyard and shoot other players, the galaxy is too big to waste time with that in my opinion.
There are thousands of games out there where the purpose is to shoot each other and do it very well. ED gives me a Galaxy to explore, why on earth would I want to do peew pew when there is a Galaxy to discover? (I’ll repeat at this point that I am aware content is thin on the ground for exploring) But at least I can find cool places to re-visit when content is added.

TLDR?
Summary – Most players purchased ED to wonder at our galaxy in their own time in their own way. For them PvP is just a waste of time and effort.

Thoughts?

Nutter
O7

Time-To-Kill is too high. PvPers are, for the most part, peolpe who want instant gratification. They can't stand to have to shoot an enemy for more than 5 seconds.