PvP Why PvP is not popular in Elite Dangerous?

[thirstyfish]

Um, what It's not symmetrical so it's not valid PvP?

The idea that combat is inherently and obviously asymmetric and so the game is not 'real' PvP is not one I agree with at all. Even chess is asymmetric to a small degree: White has the initiative at the start of every game. One side always has an advantage. Is a 100m sprint final not a proper competition unless identically equipped clones participate?

You miss the point. A 100m sprint is proper because everyone has about the same hardware, that is, a fleshy human body and pretty much nothing else.

A more apt comparison would be a 100m sprint between a roided-up athlete and a 12 year-old. That is how a lot of "PvP" plays out in ED.

Its not about people having the exact same ship and loadout. Its about parity. An FDL against a clipper, or a python, or an FAS would work. A conda against a Corvette or a Cutter would be parity. An eagle against a sidewinder would work too. Same goes for wings, two wings with similar numbers and types of ships.

Variety in ships and loadouts is fine, but having 4 FDLs against a t7 isn't exactly comparable.

 

[Siranui]

You miss the point. A 100m sprint is proper because everyone has about the same hardware, that is, a fleshy human body and pretty much nothing else.

A more apt comparison would be a 100m sprint between a roided-up athlete and a 12 year-old. That is how a lot of "PvP" plays out in ED.

Its not about people having the exact same ship and loadout. Its about parity. An FDL against a clipper, or a python, or an FAS would work. A conda against a Corvette or a Cutter would be parity. An eagle against a sidewinder would work too. Same goes for wings, two wings with similar numbers and types of ships.

Variety in ships and loadouts is fine, but having 4 FDLs against a t7 isn't exactly comparable.

I'm not missing the point: It's asymmetrical combat, because there are massive differences in training, coaching, training facilities and - even in running - equipment. Every conflict is asymmetric to a degree. We accept it and get on with it.

 

[Siranui]

Variety in ships and loadouts is fine, but having 4 FDLs against a t7 isn't exactly comparable.

And what do you ant to do about it? Ban FDLs and T6s being in the same instance? We have to accept the asymmetry, elect to join a 'fair' league, play PvP, use CQC, switch to Solo, or organise our on 'fair' PvP engagements.

 

[Nutter]

So Basicly, any player playing Elite Dangerous the 'game' or PvE does not stand a chance against this bloke?

Under a thin veil of a Pirate

"I'm not here fer yer doubloons, I just want t' blow ye up fer no good reason ha har! Yo-ho-ho! ye see, me ship be set up fer just killin' players, fer no reward, I'll warrant ye. I just want t' laugh at seein' yer ship blown t' pieces."

 

[NeilF]

So Basicly, any player playing Elite Dangerous the 'game' or PvE does not stand a chance against this bloke?

Under a thin veil of a Pirate

"I'm not here fer yer doubloons, I just want t' blow ye up fer no good reason ha har! Yo-ho-ho! ye see, me ship be set up fer just killin' players, fer no reward, I'll warrant ye. I just want t' laugh at seein' yer ship blown t' pieces."

Destroying an NPC won't do, as it's the grief they enjoy. The more one side, pointless and aggravating the destruction... The better.


At the moment gankers have it all on their side. They can destroy CMDRs not even interested in combat, and most likely not even outfitted for combat, let alone a grade 5 engineered group of CMDRs... And all at little/no risk, and all at little/no negative outcome. All in the name of enjoyment at someone else's pointless destruction.

And when a victim, no doubt frustrated at the state of affairs in the game 2.5yrs on, and faced with another toxic encounter deems to try and cause some grief back by denying these individuals their pointless explosion, we get a tirade of "That's not fair!"

R-e-a-l-l-y-?

 

[CMDR Kantos Kan]

Not to mention the massive power discrepancy between a combat-focussed ship and a general-purpose ship. If a player has put the effort into building a highly PvP-combat-focussed ship, then any player who comes up against them in a not-so-focussed vessel probably won't last long and probably won't have any enjoyment from the encounter.

This was the case before engineering, and engineer modifications hugely increase the difference.

^^^ Exactly this! there are people really obsessed in having the most deadly load out to take out other players. It's an end by itself to them.

 

[Zambrick]

Um, what It's not symmetrical so it's not valid PvP?

The idea that combat is inherently and obviously asymmetric and so the game is not 'real' PvP is not one I agree with at all. Even chess is asymmetric to a small degree: White has the initiative at the start of every game. One side always has an advantage. Is a 100m sprint final not a proper competition unless identically equipped clones participate?

No chess is the supreme example of symmetry. You dont start out on a chess board with less pieces than your opponent. The first move of the game provides Zero advantage if you are playing against anyone of your own skill level. If you aren't then that is an issue of picking a terrible opponent and not one of symmetry. Its easy to prove if you would like. You can make chessmaster play itself. When both are set to the same AI level it breaks down to 50/50 win loss ratio over a span of examples.

Skill level and preparedness wins a 100m sprint and has absolutely nothing to do with PVP in a video game. Its a fair contest because everyone can prepare and be equally as good as the other. Its just the person who trained more who has the advantage.

It doesnt matter how much you train in ED for combat when dealing with ship,RNGering, and training is concerned. If 2 ships had or were forced to fight and one of them was a T-6 and the other was an FDL and it was a fair contest, then both ships should be able to win, correct? Everyone knows that will never be the case. The only thing that can be done is the T-6 can escape and that is not combat, That is surviving combat, but its not winning it. So again combat based PVP can never happen in EDs current Open Environment.

To use an analogy in the real world as you seem to be doing. Elite Dangerous's version in PVP is explained with the following scenario " F15 Jet fighter fully loaded with a combat pilot blowing up a Fed Ex Cargo Jet filled with Christmas packages with an airline pilot flying." That is what Elite Dangerous offers as Open mode player combat.

In the real world the Military would ground said pilot and punish said pilot for their crimes or negligence. If found guilty of actual murder, then most countries would have the person executed for said crimes.

In ED that is not the case nor is it possible. So since there is no deterrence for said criminal acts, then a PVP scenario can never and will never exist in Open play. Karma/C&P system with extreme punishment is the only way to achieve parity in a game where there can never be such a thing as balance.

 

[Jex =TE=]

Given the massive issues with PVP, it's a surprise to see this question being asked. Who wants to get into a PVP game when the balancing is completely out, some players haven't paid to keep up, we now know there's been a huge exploit that gives a huge advantage to some players and there's no decent C&P system along with a "I'm over here" wall hack lol

There's also no decent MP missions. I can't wing up with friends to escort a spec. forces operation or whatever and have another faction of players show up to fight it over. You basically just meet up because..... and that's not really a compellling reason to bother.

 

[BlackSpaceCowboy]

All of those things are simply because *some* people do not like any form loss or setback.

Unfortunately, that's not how life is, or pleasure truly derived. I hope that particular minority continue to be ignored in their desire to start a race-for-the-bottom as regards risk/loss in the game.

Your argument is that rebuy costs add realism and immersion to the game. But if you wanted to be truly realistic, your insurance rates would be based on your history. The Elite Dangerous insurance company would be bankrupt by now if it kept insuring commanders who routinely lose ships. And insurance would only send you a check, you would have to rebuy everything. And your commander would be dead. Maybe his relatives would inherit the insurance check.

So clearly even you don't want too much realism. I doubt most people would enjoy Iron Man mode ED for too long.

The result of the high rebuy cost on expensive ships is that people want to avoid risk. That's why so many people wanted the AI nerfed. Now we have ZERO danger in missions. So, the decision for realism leads to realistic attitudes liker risk aversion and wanting a safe easy universe.

You don't see many games that punish you for dying. It's because it's a bad game design choice.

 

[thirstyfish]

And what do you ant to do about it? Ban FDLs and T6s being in the same instance? We have to accept the asymmetry, elect to join a 'fair' league, play PvP, use CQC, switch to Solo, or organise our on 'fair' PvP engagements.

What I want to do about it is largely irrelevant. Same goes for pretty much everyone here. I have myself taken care of. I have already dealt with this issue for myself. I don't care that much. I only really worry about that which I can control. In this case, my own actions. You do whatever you want. I don't care. You pretty much won't find me in Open mode for anything but fuel rat stuff. I am playing the game my way, and that involves not bothering with PvP for any reason. Don't like it? Too bad. Go suck a lemon.

 

[crushdepth]

For the same reason that rabbits don't enjoy picking fights with hyenas.

 

[subq]

I've been doing "PvP" longer than most kids have been gaming. The thing is, there are basically two forms of it. One is a competitive form where you try to equalize the gear (other than maybe some strategical differences). The other is the original open-world PvP that was in the first MMOs like UO.

Personally, I prefer the MMO open-world type PvP because I like the realistic element of it. There is danger involved, it is unfair, etc etc...

There is no reason to bash that type of PvP, it is the more realistic type of PvP for an open-world MMO game (IMO). The other form is more of a competition type of PvP (I don't have a problem with that either). I would think realistically, if we were flying around in space there would undoubtedly be pirates and whatnot that could rob you/shoot at you, etc etc etc....unless you are in some sort of policed zone.

I'm new to Elite but it seems it offers multiple types of game-play so that everyone can play how they like.

 

[dekot]

I've played a lot of games over a span of two decades and this community is by far one of the most carebear communities I've ever encountered.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I've played a lot of games over a span of two decades and this community is by far one of the most carebear communities I've ever encountered.

Why thank you. Very kind.

Must be great to have found a civilised community after 20 years of gaming. Beer's in the fridge, take a load off and enjoy your stay

 

[NeilF]

The Chris Rock Solution. Make bullets cost a million credits each and remove lasers from the game. Then when someone gets wasted you know it was for a good reason.

Or just make illegal destruction accountable. ie: If you illegally destroy people it had better be for a good reason...

 

[Dutchman141]

I've played a lot of games over a span of two decades and this community is by far one of the most carebear communities I've ever encountered.

I concur, I've been a gamer since the introduction of pong and although online communities began to form much later I've seldom, if at all, found a more friendly community as here.
Sometimes there's quite some salt flying through the air but that's about it.
The common interest in space, sci fi, tech, etc. is the thing that binds us enough to at least respect one and other imho.

o7

 

[Zambrick]

I've played a lot of games over a span of two decades and this community is by far one of the most carebear communities I've ever encountered.

While that is good for you. Age means nothing other than the fact that some of us will live longer than you. Age does not bring wisdom and it certainly does not bring competency. How you feel personally has Zero impact on reality.

The sooner self entitled false passive aggressive attempts at internet machismo is ended, the better games like ED will become. Just because someone gets buthurtt over the fact that the game itself has no semblance of combat based PVP, doesnt mean that their views are correct. There are games and genres where PVP is intuitive and fits the overall narrative of the game. However ED has never been that and will never be that. PVP will have to be forced by draconian punishment, the removal of all ships but a few, or CQC in order to be viable.

It will however never be that way. No matter how much people want it. PVP combat does not exist in ED in any construct of the game currently. Fake, arranged, PVP duals do exist however duels are not wars and they are not realistic in comparison to the rest of the game. Nobody will ever know you blew up CMDR BoomsAlot because nobody cares and there is no way to let anyone know in game. Other than forcing it. Doing something over and over again just because you want it to change does not mean that it will change. Stating that PVP is something that is viable, required, or fun. does not make it true for everyone. That is the very definition of an opinion and while you are entitled to it, it does not mean everyone must agree with you.

 

[Zambrick]

Or just make illegal destruction accountable. ie: If you illegally destroy people it had better be for a good reason...

Thats what they are doing with the karma/C&P system they are working on.

The only thing they cant do is wuss out on the punishment. It must be definitive and impactful. A billionaire wont care if you blow up his ship. A billionaire will care if you take his ship and fine him a huge amount of money to boot.

 

[Dbrn47]

You've pretty much answered the question in the same way or better than I would. There are games that do it better and I didn't buy this game for PvP. It doesn't have the style of player competition I enjoy in the first place.

 

[Heavenly-Hammer]

My thoughts:

1.) PvP actually requires a lot of skill. Skill that takes time to develop. People don't always have time or interest to do that and most probably didn't sign up for that experience.

2.) The cost penalty of death. People don't like losing, but losing hours or days worth of money on top of it? That's down right depressing to the point of being a non-starter for many people.

3.) Age. If the average age of posters here is an indication, most players are 35-50, meaning many missed the golden age of PvP gaming. Most probably didn't play Quake Arena, Unreal Tournament, online fighters, online shooters, etc. That means a fair amount of the player base has only played PvE style games. Competitive gaming is not a thing for them and has never been. And will never will be.

4.) It's based on random encounters. In other games, you enter with the expectation of PvP. In fact, in most games that have PvP there is a dedicated mode and that's all people are doing. But due to the sheer size of ED's galaxy, that is an impossibility. So what you end up with is extremely random encounters that you may or may not be prepared for. You may be in the wrong ship, doing mission runs when you get jumped instead of in your war ship. There is no, "hang on let me switch ships" sort of option. You just have to try to escape or die. Lack of clear organization or way to congregate and do PvP intentionally hurts the game.

5.) Instancing. I don't need to explain the history of debilitating issues that poor instancing has caused over the years for organized PvP efforts.

6.) Engineers. What was probably conceived as a way to enhance things like PvP has had a net negative effect (in my opinion) as it has put PvP behind a grind wall. You literally can't PvP without having dome some engineering anymore. This also means that balance can't be controlled. Some people will have stronger versions of ships and equipment, period. That generally flies in the face of balanced PvP gaming.