Teaching kids that beliefs which don't mesh with your own are "fairytales" is indoctrination. Neutral? That is what you've just advocated.
General / Off-Topic The General Politics Thread aka "I didn't Vote For You"
- Thread starter Alien
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Teaching kids that beliefs which don't mesh with your own are "fairytales" is indoctrination. Neutral? That is what you've just advocated.
So basically a secular state, like what Turkey used to have.
It worked pretty well, till it got overrun by Islamists.
verminstar
Banned
Indoctrination is bad...trust me. Wanna know what the punishment was fer not standing to the Queens national anthem when I was at school? Five strikes on the palms of the hands with a 4 ft cane in the headmasters office. Ye were made to stand in front of the whole school while ye recieved yer strikes in a line so everyone knew who ye were...crying made sure ye got bullied hard afterwards. I was 6 at the time. One learns quickly not to cry and ignore pain...sometimes when ye just smiled at them, they gave up because there were other punishments that required less effort on their part.
Most people would call that state sponsored abuse in this day and age...my how times have changed...thankfully ^
Religion...ye I also think its a fairy tale scenario but I wont attack someones faith past a little winding up and light jesting...a real life best bud of mine is a practicing minister with a guilty secret vice his wife would not like...he loves xbox and specifically gta5. He doesnt preach to me and I dont poke fun at him just cos he wears a collar.
Why cant life be simple like that all the time? Something wrong with outsiders...
I also dont feel I have the right to dictate what my daughter can or cannot learn in school. Even the stuff Im personally uncomfortable with fer whatever reason. Some of us didnt have those choices and those freedoms growing up and look what happened...it decimated a country and ruined entire generations. The old world doesnt have the right to ruin the new world...we have done enough damage without messing up our kids as well so they grow up to ruin theirs and so on and on...stop...please.
Besides, dont give the fun police an excuse to close yet another thread...ye know mixing religion and politics is never a good idea and damn ye went and mixed the two before the threads even on page 2...seriously guys?
Most people would call that state sponsored abuse in this day and age...my how times have changed...thankfully ^
Religion...ye I also think its a fairy tale scenario but I wont attack someones faith past a little winding up and light jesting...a real life best bud of mine is a practicing minister with a guilty secret vice his wife would not like...he loves xbox and specifically gta5. He doesnt preach to me and I dont poke fun at him just cos he wears a collar.
Why cant life be simple like that all the time? Something wrong with outsiders...
I also dont feel I have the right to dictate what my daughter can or cannot learn in school. Even the stuff Im personally uncomfortable with fer whatever reason. Some of us didnt have those choices and those freedoms growing up and look what happened...it decimated a country and ruined entire generations. The old world doesnt have the right to ruin the new world...we have done enough damage without messing up our kids as well so they grow up to ruin theirs and so on and on...stop...please.
Besides, dont give the fun police an excuse to close yet another thread...ye know mixing religion and politics is never a good idea and damn ye went and mixed the two before the threads even on page 2...seriously guys?
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I advocated a state in which you can be whatever religion you want, but no single religion gets favoured or abused, and no religion is encouraged. There is no denial of freedom in what i advocate, no indoctrination, you wouldn't teach that witches, ghosts, vampires or zombies were real, so why teach anything that would suggest the religions are any different ?
Yes a secular state, Turkey did it quite well until Erdogan ruined decades of progress, now we get to see the difference, secular vs religious Turkey, i think we all know which was better.
Oh and Verminstar I apologize for bringing religion into it, but it's important whether uncomfortable or not, i can't help myself. I'm not trying to offend religious individuals, it's not their fault that they have been taught this nonsense and not snapped out of it. (like the easter bunny and santa claus).
On a more serious note, i genuinely don't want religious people to feel bullied, mocked yes, but not bullied, i'm not a Soviet state atheist. My desire is simply to be able to mock something that deserves to be mocked, and most of the content from every single holy book, deserves nothing but mockery, unless of course they admit that it's merely fiction, i mean, i'm not a Harry Potter fan but i refuse to mock it, it's fiction, i respect fiction that knows that it's not real.
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In comparing religion to vampires and zombies you're making a facile comparison that is based upon your own ignorance and prejudices. That's perfectly fine, you're entitled to do that. But when you state that you want your own prejudices to be taught as facts to kids in school you're moving into "radicalization" territory.
Think about it - when someone taught from a young age that religious people "believe in fairytales" how are they going to respond to religious people as adults? In such a society, how likely would universities accept such people? How many employers would allow such people into senior positions? How many political organizations would accept the religious into them?
You're once again proving that you don't need to be religious to be an ignorant preacher.
Do you not see the irony of claiming to be atheist but being unable to stop preaching your own beliefs?
Not trying to offend these people. It's not their fault they're so stupid and obviously haven't seen the light (insert passive aggressive reducto ad absudium here like I do every time just for extra provocation).
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Ok.
Suppose you have a state in which there are say, six religions represented, plus a variety of denominations and sub sects. Not counting the non-religious.
The only fair way to run that situation is to operate it in a neutral manner, so as not to favor one group over another. I.e. A secular state.
Please note, this isn't a militantly atheist country where people get sanctioned. It's a simple arrangement. Worship, or not, as individuals see fit. Nobody gets to beat up anybody else.
That effectively creates an open market for competing ideologies, with a level playing field run by the state institutions. So schools run by the state don't get to preach. Denominational schools Are a different story. Parents get to pick which one they like. And if you go to a state school but want to worship on your own, that should be fine. Want to set up a religious club, or group? Should be no problem, even in a state school., or a school with a different denomination.
It's not so much about winning the fight, as it is about not fighting, so everybody wins. I think this has a great deal to offer as the best arrangement.
How about just letting the pupils themselves decide whether they want to visit a religious subject or not?
Over here it's done like that from a certain age on. In elementary and early advanced education your parents decide whether you visit protestant or catholic religious education, later on you can decide against it and get transfered to the ethics course instead.
The teachers usually have majored in theology and either teach other subjects too or have some function in the church (at least it was like that at the high school/Gymnasium I went to).
Over here it's done like that from a certain age on. In elementary and early advanced education your parents decide whether you visit protestant or catholic religious education, later on you can decide against it and get transfered to the ethics course instead.
The teachers usually have majored in theology and either teach other subjects too or have some function in the church (at least it was like that at the high school/Gymnasium I went to).
57% of French have not voted for the legislative elections. I find remarkable, the participation for the abstention
Yes indeed. The solution is elegantly simple:
As Becks says, just leave it up to people, including pupils, to decide for themselves. But, I'm sure you'll agree, that is a very very long way from:
[My Bold]
That is very clearly atheist indoctrination of young people; and comes quite close to being a violation of article 18 of the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights as it happens.
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Atheist indoctrination, critical observation...tom-eh-to, tom-ah-to.
Minonian
Banned
The communist / Socialist school system in the east block was not any better.
[video=youtube;YR5ApYxkU-U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR5ApYxkU-U[/video]
We also had more than enough from this. Communism just like that!
THX but no THX! Ain't no any better than religious fanaticism.
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I have said it before, i'm not a communist and i'm not in favour of indoctrination, i'm in favour of facts. If you guys don't like facts, then that's fine, i never said that i wanted a state in which you can't be religious, i just don't think it's appropriate to promote backward ideology in 21st century Europe, you wouldn't promote human sacrifice or flat earth, these things are rightly discouraged for obvious reasons, so why not also discourage relgion ? It's a genuine question. In my opinion, the sooner religion get's out of politics and education the better. (although i still think the different religious beliefs should be taught in history or drama classes where it belongs).
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Of course you don't see it as indoctrination. ISIS don't see forcing their beliefs on the population as indoctrination either. Nobody who thinks they have all the facts and that everyone who believes something different has fiction believes they are indoctrinating, they believe they are merely educating.
If you want to talk removing concepts such as creationism from science class - that's an obvious one. But your problem there is that I can't think of a single place in Europe that would put creationism on the science curriculum. So why raise it? In case it might happen? But even bringing it up in that context makes you sound like those people claiming that people playing video games will make them turn violent. It's not going to happen.
Also, you've once again implied that religious people are "backward" and believing things analogous to "flat earth" and now "human sacrifice". So, yeah, if someone wants to quietly observe a belief that maybe some non-corporeal entity kicked off the universe then that person might as well be chucking virgins into a volcano.
The horrible tragedy here is that you don't see the irony.
The poster above you, what's Minonian's religious belief? What's mine? What is the religious belief of Adept, Becks, Javert, Boomer, Sunleader, Verminstar, Sleutel, Robin, Alien, Yaffle, TJ, Patrick, Beelb, or any of the other regular off-topic denizens? I've got absolutely no idea about any of them.
There is one single poster I, and for that matter everyone else, knows the religious beliefs of in some detail. Can you guess which poster that is?
Look at this very thread:
Before the end of page two these little gems had been scattered around:
Who is the preacher? You might as well be carrying a copy of "Not Watchtower" and be knocking on doors to discuss why people need to give up religion to enter the kingdom of enlightenment. You've clearly got an axe to grind with religion. The way to deal with that axe is to bury it, not to expect 4.7 billion human beings to change their mind so that you no longer have to think about the possibility that someone doesn't share your views.
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That song inspired the most graffiti in my school after Frank Zappa.
So by extension, a mathematics teacher is therefore just an algebraic hate preacher?
...
Ah my mistake; one deals in entirely fabricated fearmongering to further the cause of an individual or collective, another deals in passing on established and proven fact for knowledge's sake.
Now doesn't that sound familiar as a comparison...
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Humans have a religious side, think about those who idealise Elon Musk, who those who pretty much see Science as a religion.
I don't really know what to call it, but there are those that are so blind to facts that they refuse all else, it's one of the reasons science has kind of stunted recently. Any theories that are abstract are immediately discounted because they don't fit with the current theory.
There are studies shown that Dogs have almost telepathic links with their owners. Statistically it is proven. But there are no studies, it's not accepted by the wider science because it doesn't fit with the "facts" narrative.
So in answer to your question, it's not all about facts, you can't stop teaching religion and only teach science because then science becomes the new "religion". You need to teach abstract thinking.
Algebra (or to give it the original Islamic name, Al-Jabr) is not a "fact". It is an epistemological tool used to create universal rules of mathematics and applied science, thus the comparison is complete junk.
Let me give an example of "fact" and "fiction":
Fact: The vast majority of religious people on planet earth manage to get through the entire 24 hour cycle without sacrificing humans, manufacturing suicide bombs, or preaching hate.
Fiction: The religious ideas of Thomas Aquinas, or speculative judgements on whether Immanuel Kant was religious or atheist when he wrote 'The critique of pure reason', are just the same as Lord of the Rings and believing in vampires.
I wish I could rep this. Philosophy should be mandatory. It makes you smarter when you can self-critize how you think and actually think about the way you think.
EDIT: A good way to return this to topic actually.
Here, should people who vote have spent some time thinking about concepts like this (watch the first 6 minutes)?
[video=youtube;kBdfcR-8hEY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBdfcR-8hEY[/video]
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Being punished for not standing to attention was very common in schools, right across the U.K. I have seen in myself, in Kent; less than 50 years ago.
Education and how it is taught is a funny thing. I was in junior school in Kent and started to learn about dinosaurs; but then we move to the sticks in Wales and was punished for arguing about them not being a myth; because the bulk of the education was based on the King James bible there.
That was how the cult of the Teletubbies got started.