Youtuber Kornelius Briedis seems to have had it with Fdevs

[babelfisch]

You and I know that's a fairly "open" comment.

Has mining evolved and deepened over the past two years? Not really... And certainly not to anything approaching a significant step? And likewise with exploration* and many of the other core profressions etc.


And then, we get onto what has been given development time. I'd suggest many players would question if development time spend on Powerplay, CQC, The Engineers and Multi-Crew gave the best bang for buck. Or indeed if the designs themselves achieved the best outcome for the game?

Again, given the time/stage we're at, I feel the community is weighing all this up...



* Plantetary Landing was obviously a great technical addition. And TBH one of the few additions I think moved the game truly forwards.

- prospector limpets
- transfer limpets
- lots of fixes to refineries
- raw material minging
- ice mining

True, it's not a revolution but it definitely evolved over the past 2.5 years. Maybe not as much as I'd like though.

BTW
This is coming from someone who never really tried mining, so take it with a tonne of salt.

 

[NeilF]

- prospector limpets
- transfer limpets
- lots of fixes to refineries
- raw material minging
- ice mining

True, it's not a revolution but it definitely evolved over the past 2.5 years. Maybe not as much as I'd like though.

BTW
This is coming from someone who never really tried mining, so take it with a tonne of salt.

If I recall, limpets came out over two years ago? And ice mining? Shooting a white rock instead of a brown one? So let's be frank, there's been next to no progress in depth at all...

And this lack of investment is of course across too much of the core professions and mechanics, to the extent it's going to cause significant issues now because the game quite literally hasn't got the tools needed to utilise in new gameplay. eg: If CQC's development time had instead brought about more involved combat scenarios in the core game, those could have been used in Powerplay, missions, CGs and leveraged now for the Thargoids... But instead more often than not over the past two years we've had self contained (questionable) bolt ons.

I discussed this matter here as regards its effect on Multi-Crew - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...o-bite-ED-in-the-boosters!?highlight=boosters


In truth, I think the unrest we see at the moment is down to people seeing two years of developments and questioning the outcome.

 

[EUS]

Listen buddy, I'm from Canada, and I want some of that internet money!

 

[MarkAusten]

If I recall, limpets came out over two years ago? And ice mining? Shooting a white rock instead of a brown one? So let's be frank, there's been next to no progress in depth at all...

And this lack of investment is of course across too much of the core professions and mechanics, to the extent it's going to cause significant issues now because the game quite literally hasn't got the tools needed to utilise in new gameplay. eg: If CQC's development time had instead brought about more involved combat scenarios in the core game, those could have been used in Powerplay, missions, CGs and leveraged now for the Thargoids... But instead more often than not over the past two years we've had self contained (questionable) bolt ons.

I discussed this matter here as regards its effect on Multi-Crew - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...o-bite-ED-in-the-boosters!?highlight=boosters


In truth, I think the unrest we see at the moment is down to people seeing two years of developments and questioning the outcome.

Personally, I'd put that more down to not really understanding the difficulty of the tasks that FD have set themselves and that's pretty endemic in the software industry, and not realising that what has been achieved in two years is pretty good going.

But that's just me.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Personally, I'd put that more down to not really understanding the difficulty of the tasks that FD have set themselves and that's pretty endemic in the software industry, and not realising that what has been achieved in two years is pretty good going.

But that's just me.

i am told making AI who can act intelligently enough to work as wing(wo)men is super hard in Elite.
I am told npc crew is a really complex ask, and that to have an npc engineer, science officer, commando, fighter pilot as a part of our crew will take a huge amount of work.

What i do not understand is WHY this is the case, esp when games i played 20+ years ago on a machine relatively with the power of a potato managed it just fine.

 

[Cageman]

i am told making AI who can act intelligently enough to work as wing(wo)men is super hard in Elite.

Having an NPC SLF pilot seems to work quite well. Not sure how much work it would take to take it to the next level; having him/her piloting one of your other ships, winging up and follow you around.

Time will tell if that will ever happen.

 

[shadragon]

i am told making AI who can act intelligently enough to work as wing(wo)men is super hard in Elite.

It is, but we have SJA working on it so no worries then.

 

[NeilF]

Personally, I'd put that more down to not really understanding the difficulty of the tasks that FD have set themselves and that's pretty endemic in the software industry, and not realising that what has been achieved in two years is pretty good going.

But that's just me.

Possibly, but then that would be accepting the like of Powerplay, CQC, The Engineers, Multi-Crew as, (a) Wise choices in place of other developments, (b) Designed to best effect/outcome.

Personally, I can't accept that.


Quite honestly, I think FD underestimated the job in question, and have also made some questionable choices. But I'm (desperately) hoping we're headed into a new phase of the game now with 2.4-->3. If it's not a significant change of direction, for me at least that won't be enough I fear.

 

[shadragon]

Having an NPC SLF pilot seems to work quite well. Not sure how much work it would take to take it to the next level; having him/her piloting one of your other ships, winging up and follow you around.

That will always be the dream. I have a series of spare ships I could give a competent AI pilot to cover me while I did other things. Nothing against SLF, but an A-rated Vulture is a wee bit better.

 

[Crank Larson]

Personally, I'd put that more down to not really understanding the difficulty of the tasks that FD have set themselves and that's pretty endemic in the software industry, and not realising that what has been achieved in two years is pretty good going.

I've said exactly the same on other threads.

Compare where we are, to where the other game is... E: D is much further forward, and much less money was needed to be raised to get there (most of the money comes from selling a product, rather than the idea of a product).

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

It is, but we have SJA working on it so no worries then.

fair enough but wings came in in............ 1.2 was it? which is over 2 years ago now, and right now we do not even know if npc wingfolk or crew are even on the "horizon" despite being features i was expecting at launch. (and unlike landing on planets, i do not think npc wingmates was an outrageous thing to expect had one followed the developtment)

 

[VR jefranklin18]

fair enough but wings came in in............ 1.2 was it? which is over 2 years ago now, and right now we do not even know if npc wingfolk or crew are even on the "horizon" despite being features i was expecting at launch. (and unlike landing on planets, i do not think npc wingmates was an outrageous thing to expect had one followed the developtment)

To be honest, I think NPC wing men will come when hirable NPCs in general come along. I think they (FD) want to ensure that there's more to them, than the current SLF crew mechanic.

 

[Conch]

Listen buddy, I'm from Canada, and I want some of that internet money!

im not your buddy, pal!

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Personally, I'd put that more down to not really understanding the difficulty of the tasks that FD have set themselves and that's pretty endemic in the software industry, and not realising that what has been achieved in two years is pretty good going.

But that's just me.

Ye, there really was no need to rush the engineers and blow the game to bits. I could have done completely without them. Somehow I actually do.

 

[Rafe Zetter]

Personally, I'd put that more down to not really understanding the difficulty of the tasks that FD have set themselves and that's pretty endemic in the software industry, and not realising that what has been achieved in two years is pretty good going.

But that's just me.

Lets not kid ourselves here, FDev went after the easy money of Xbone and now PS4 - CQC being a major component of both of those, but entirely separated from the main galaxy.

And with DB's experience he should have known better - He got a bloody OBE for "services to gaming" for deus's sake...... just how many game devs have that?

The two most obvious reasons for those cash grabs is the financial requirements of developing and FDev only have themselves to blame for this - they overpromised and underpriced the KS by at least a factor of 4 and because of said overpromising didn't get anywhere near enough retail sales upon game release because it got less than stellar reviews within a month of that release.

FDev recently had Obsidian Ant do some PR for them (which was seen for what it was) whereby it was claimed 100 staff or more were working on the game, but obviously no numbers where given of how much of that was the imminent PS4 release (probably most) and how much was the current or upcoming PC content.

It's also noted that even though he was under a NDA, he wasn't exactly shouting from the rooftops "HEY GUYS - YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT'S COMING BUT YOU'RE GONNA LOVE IT!!!!! " he sure didn't sound that enthused to me.

Going by the crayon colouring recent skins the people involved with the games visual design aren't up to the task, and if you've hired people who do that kind of content for the most important aspect of the game - the visuals - who knows what second rate or inexperienced (cheap) staff they have working on the core? About the only thing people praise of the current build is the AI - sometimes too hard or too easy, that's a balancing thing, but how it actually works fundamentally seems to be pretty much perfect.

 

[pippo]

Blimey, who's on a high horse, here?

 

[Crank Larson]

Blimey, who's on a high horse, here?

Pretty much everyone.

 

[MarkAusten]

i am told making AI who can act intelligently enough to work as wing(wo)men is super hard in Elite.
I am told npc crew is a really complex ask, and that to have an npc engineer, science officer, commando, fighter pilot as a part of our crew will take a huge amount of work.

What i do not understand is WHY this is the case, esp when games i played 20+ years ago on a machine relatively with the power of a potato managed it just fine.

Okay, take one of those, the NPC AI, to be able to have an NPC Crew that is going to be a member of the crew you need to pretty much understand all the possible inputs and define an action for them. This could either be a set of hard rules, a number of broad rules that cover a range of behaviour, a neural net that learns as it plays, or some combination of all of these with some random fluctuation built in. There may be more possibilities here but these are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. So which of these is the better route?

You have to realise that this also needs to be developed in the context of Elite Dangerous as it is today, not some other game of 20+ years ago.

Other questions and in no particular order:

What are all the possible behaviours that the AI is to exhibit?
What are the limitations of these behaviours? You don't want the AI to have instantaneous reflexes for example, they need to be approximately human.
What can go wrong and what is allowed to go wrong?
What about damage to the NPC, how is that going to be modelled? Is it going to be modelled at all?
What are the differing roles required for the AI NPC and how are these different?
Across the differing roles what are the common behaviours?
For each role what are the unique behaviours?
What are the required skill levels? We have Harmless through to Elite are the NPCs gong to have the same and if so what does that mean in terms of the behaviours? Faster reflexes? Better coordination? and so on.
How are the skill levels gong to affect the common and unique behaviours for all roles.
Are there likely to be new roles required in future?
How can all of the above be parameterised so that changes to roles and behaviours as well as new roles and behaviours require minimal new code, preferably none.
How does all of this fit with the current game engine?
How does all of this fit with the existing code?
What are the likely choke point in the code?
What possible optimisations can be made to speed up the code? Probably going to need to wait until the code is written before attempting to answer this one.
How is this going to be developed?
How is this to be tested? That is alpha testing and not beta testing.
What is the likely timescale for this?
Is just one role developed to start with and others added or should a generic crew member be created first and then specific roles added?
How many developers will be required to develop this?
Is there anything already out there that will help with all of this?
Are specialised developers needed to help with this and should they be contractors or permanent staff?
How are the new crew NPCs going to be recruited?
Are NPC crew going to be rewarded for their part in the game and if so how.
Are the NPC crews to be persistent or transitory?
What roles and behaviours have the player base been asking for?
Are the requested roles and behaviours reasonable?
How does all this fit with the vision of the current game?
Should this development be extended to NPC with space legs in the future? If so, what are the likely roles? Bartender, mechanic, accountant, mission giver, tourist etc.
What are the testing scenarios?
How are QA going to be involved and at what point?
How many QA staff will be required to work not this once it hits alpha testing?
How are the NPCs to be rendered?
Can the Holo-me suite be used to render the NPCs? If so what parameters are required for each NPC role?


The list goes on.

These are just a few of the questions that need to be answered before development can even begin that I can think of off the top of my head. If I were to sit down and approach this as a proper development task, bearing in mind that I write complex business software for a living and have been in the software business for over 45 years, so I like to think that I know a little about the subject, I would expect this basic specification to run to at least 50 pages of A4. The task would require one project Manager and 3-5 developers and probably around 6-12 months to get a playable model in the lab, with public beta testing in 12-18 months.

I could be way off with those last, as I said my experience is in business application not game development but I'm probably not that far off.

I wouldn't even begin to be able to look at the costs or whether or not this was even a justifiable project, I leave that to other experts to answer those questions.

And we haven't even begun writing code yet!

So, does that give you a better idea of the complexity of the task?

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

all good points.... and all points which were allegedly being covered back in 2013 when the game was being made.

Stuff like how it fits in with the codebase is not really our problem. npc wingmates and crew were core parts of the game and for me, FAR more important when it came for me deciding to help fund the game, than the multiplayer which was always of 2ndry importance to me personally (which is not to say FD should have dropped it)


but imagine if we turned it on its head, and that after FD talked about ED being multiplayer, it was 2 years after npc wings had been launched and players could still not wing together.... this is kind of how npc wing mates, or lack of, affect me... esp when the ai have no such trouble getting in wings of 8!.

 

[Bobbydylan]

i am told making AI who can act intelligently enough to work as wing(wo)men is super hard in Elite.
I am told npc crew is a really complex ask, and that to have an npc engineer, science officer, commando, fighter pilot as a part of our crew will take a huge amount of work.

What i do not understand is WHY this is the case, esp when games i played 20+ years ago on a machine relatively with the power of a potato managed it just fine.

Yeah, I don;t buy that. We already have NPC wingmen (in SLF) and AI cops that will help you. So, that's fine. We also have NPC's that will follow you in SC (and constantly interdict you) and follow you between systems.
This "it's too complex" doesn't hold me any water IMHO. It's just a lack of will as far as I'm concerned.