NPC law enforcement (aside from bounty hunters) shouldn't come after you in anarchy. But crimes committed there should absolutely attract bounties.
The problem with the new C&P improvements
- Thread starter Earth Ultimatum IV.
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NPC law enforcement (aside from bounty hunters) shouldn't come after you in anarchy. But crimes committed there should absolutely attract bounties.
Absolutely...
But I'd suggest a C&P (karma) system should rely on things more subtle/interesting than bounties. ie: If a CMDR is is habitually illegaly destroying CMDRs/NPCs I'd much rather see him penalised by more and more stations slowly refusing docking permission. Or indeed entire systems denying a permit. And in the end a perminent Pilots Federation bounty being on them permitted their attack anywhere, as well as highlighting them to all other CMDRs as a know psycho!
Agreed, simple bounties would be far less interesting and effective than those. I'm hoping that the PF bounty will impose increasingly severe other effects as it builds up.
The proposed changes were mentioned in a Lavecon livestream, with a summary of the changes listed on the first page here https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/359262-Lavecon-2017-what-will-we-get
The trouble is, we do not have anything in more detail yet, so much of the discussion is based around hearsay, estimates, anticipation, expectation ......
And I think it's fair to say, what's discussed is just a first step... and not really a C&P (karma) mechanic in full etc..
1) Piracy and criminal organization HQ. If we have updated C&P one possible reaction among criminal players would be to establish 'safe ports' in known anarchy, where hostile bounty hunting players would be unwelcome and met with force by organized criminal CMDRs. Obviously having C&P response here makes this pointless.
2) It's overkill, FDEV implemented a new warning system when one is jumping to lawless space, that alone should be adequate warning. Lore wise there are plenty of cases where 'dark systems' or lawless systems are not covered by Pilot Federation or any authority, and one goes out there at full risk to themselves.
But frankly I see that you don't care for any form of combat, not piracy, not Powerplay, all of which you'll throw under the bus because some gankers blew up your defenseless ship one too many times. Maybe be a little more proactive in your own defense, avoid anarchies, build a ship with shields and armor, or use solo/private when not in safe territory. Killing off piracy and Powerplay combat just because you fear gankers is going to kill off the game for a lot of nongankers.
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No real details yet, basically a 'storm in a teacup' thread.
Right. Lawful players have to avoid anarchy because of the criminals there. Criminals have to avoid civilised systems because they're wanted for things they do in anarchy.
You shouldn't be able to pirate and murder in anarchy and then waltz into a high security system like nothing happened. It's absurd and immersion-breaking.
OK... Let's go through your issues with a C&P (karma) mechanic being across the board (ie: all system types including Anarchy).
1) Let's go though a scenario to see how it relates to these issues?
I'm pirate and I threaten a couple of victims, who not only don't comply, but even fight back. I'm not in a good mood so I end up blowing them both up. The C&P (karma) outcome? It's not negative to such a significant degree to cause me any implications/penalties.
So, how does this relate to your concerns?
Let's carry on... I now go to an alien site and destroy a few explorers for the lolz. This does push my C&P (karma) reputation into a negative enough position such that high security stations now deny me docking.
So, how does this relate to your concerns?
Let's carry on... I log back into the game and now destroy a dozen more explorers at an alien site. This well and truly pushes my C&P (karma) reputation into a a very negative position. Not only are more stations now denying me docking. Some high security systems won't even give me a permit to jump there. Also, I now have a Pilots Federation bounty on me no matter where I am. I'm a target no matter where I go, and indeed other CMDRs can see I'm a complete psycho.
So, how does this relate to your concerns?
I'd suggest what we witness above is an entirely fair and sensible treatment of someone's illegal destruction of other CMDRs. Do it sometimes, no problem. Make a habit out of it, then start facing more and more negative outcomes. And the problem? I'm still waiting to hear any! Instead I just get emotive rhetoric...
2) A warning when jumping into lawless space...? And how is that working currently? I still see the same toxic ganking going on, especially in busy anarchy locations. And why wouldn't it when such location have absolutely no ramifications for such toxic psychopathic behaviour? Indeed even at Thargoid announcement community stream, gankers were piling in to simply destroy any ships they could find in OPEN. Why? Because they enjoy the notion of the aggravation it needlessly causes. And because there is absolutely no penalties for doing so, at all!
And finally, your comment, "But frankly I see that you don't care for any form of combat, not piracy, not Powerplay" - With that one, I'd suggest that's the perfect underlining to your points. ie: It's as unfounded (& unfair) as your other points are...
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Currently as a pirate I don't destroy traders, not without some extreme provocation. I do however get my CMDR kills from the security CMDRs that jump in or pull me. They are looking for a fight and I oblige them, but under this system I just wont bother fighting them, high wake everytime. For other pirates that use threat of death the penalty is still rather high.
And anarchies should be dangerous, you should be willing to take steps to enter one. Enter an anarchy site with a wing or two, use shields, land a distance away and drive up while dismissing your ship. Alien site gankers are grossly exaggerated and extremely easy to avoid or survive with bare minimum protection and thought applied. And you still have solo/private so you can visit unharmed.
Btw, any combat player knows how easy it is to build a ship, Trade or combat, that can survive any gank long enough to high wake. Shields, armor, and good thrusters, I have built trade ships, including a T7 mind you, built using lessons learned in combat and have never died in it, even when pulled by the best killers in the game.
Edit: I got the idea for a T7 based on this video: https://youtu.be/Uh9AWV_BWo0
Instant gank resistant ship right there, and engineering only makes it tougher.
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Sites where Explorers visit are inevitably Anarchic because they are so far from civilization. Explorers + Anarchy = "easy prey" for seal clubbers. This is ongoing with the present Thargoid 'bases' and will be in the future unless the assault on defenceless pilots is punished.
Hence the need for a criminal (negative) record to be accrued in anarchic systems, even if it cannot be enforced until they enter regular space with some level of security.
If that is still insufficient to stop undesirable activity at such sites, then immediate retribution will have to be considered, such as introducing law enforcement NPCs based on the concept of a US Marshall in the wild west. That would be a reasonable justification for having such enforcement activity in a far-out system.
Hence the need for a criminal (negative) record to be accrued in anarchic systems, even if it cannot be enforced until they enter regular space with some level of security.
If that is still insufficient to stop undesirable activity at such sites, then immediate retribution will have to be considered, such as introducing law enforcement NPCs based on the concept of a US Marshall in the wild west. That would be a reasonable justification for having such enforcement activity in a far-out system.
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So C&P (karma) as I'd see it would not affect your gameplay one bit. Unless you are illegally destroying CMDRs (NPCs) and doing it frequently enough, you'd not incur any penalties. And even if you did, the penalties would then be a ramping scale, even starting initially (at a low enough level) with nothing more than just stations commenting on your rather dubious reputation.
If you decide to keep the illegal destruction up, then these penalties would grow... How is that unfair, unreasonable or counter productive?
Agreed... And why can't they be with the kind of C&P (karma) system I'm discussing?
There's no reason you cannot be pirated over and over. But if a CMDR is using anarchy systems in order to do nothing more than illegally destroy CMDR after CMDR for the lolz, then what's wrong with this being reined in and them being held accountable for their choice?
Why should people have to duck into SOLO or PRIVATE due to poor mechanics in OPEN? We want OPEN to ideally be teh go to choice for as many CMDRs as possible!
Yes and no...
1) Why should players have to make extreme outfitting choices just because of toxic gameplay not being fairly reined in? If a player is doing nothing more than exploring why should they outfit their ship like a tank, ultimately meaning they have to waste their time in reduced jump range and the like. All so a toxic minoroty can blow up explorers pointlessly for the lolz with no negative outcome? Seems very one sided!
2) My last encounter with gankers was at the Thargoid livestream. A Wing of three engineered combat ships started simply destroy ship after ship for the lolz. And they were doing this quite literally in seconds...
So I'd ask once again, why are you fighting tooth and nail to protect this this aspect of gameplay? What would be so bad if habitual illegal destruction (even in anarchy systems) was penalised and reined in. You've yet to produce a single negative outcome IMHO.
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What are the odds you'll run into an explorer returning? Solo/private are a thing, or contact Iridium Wing for open. They are a player group that provides personal escort for explorers to a bubble system of their choice. Emergent gameplay solution there
We can go around in circles, so I'll cut to your final question. I don't want an easy mode game, current NPCs are a joke, most players are a joke, and frankly C&P will mean I either have to give up Piracy for PvP duels to death or vice versa. The C&P penalty applies on death only, and there isn't an NPC around that worries me in the slightest, but arranged duels with PvPers can lead to death and those new heightened rebuys. I don't even use an OP ship mind you, just an AspX for piracy and some other assorted ships for PvP dueling. As I don't use exploits I don't have Quince cash, so PvP dueling with C&P of my criminal activities, even done in anarchy only, would quickly add up.
In short, I'll have to give up either Piracy or PvP duels, at that point I might as well just give up the game. I've done everything else possible and found them lacking in challenge.
That's all well and good, but I'll point out once again I do find it interesting when people decend into pointless rhetoric rather than simply making the effort to produce considered reasons why a C&P (karma) mechanic applying to anarchy system produces any game play issues at all that are not fair and reasonable.
And/or indeed why reining in and holding CMDRs accountable for psychotic behaviour no matter where is a bad thing...
But good try... Some of your pointless sarcasm was almost entertaining...
If you want to actually point out any issues with the proposal I'd love to hear them. The empty sarcasm... Less so...
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I'm perplexed and vaguely amused by the vocal few who seem to feel that in game actions should not have in game consequences.
If I was playing as a murderous pirate I would expect, and even want, my notoriety to spread through the galaxy. So, being 'excluded' from high security sectors makes perfect sense, even to the extent that docking requests get routinely refused.
If I was playing as a murderous pirate I would expect, and even want, my notoriety to spread through the galaxy. So, being 'excluded' from high security sectors makes perfect sense, even to the extent that docking requests get routinely refused.
But not from anarchy systems, which is the issue you missed over adding C&P to them as well.
What? Define how we've now got to this "easy game mode"? Let me define an easy mode for you. I fly to an alien ruin in my fully engineered combat ship. Any explorer I see I blow up for the lolz and log off. A couple of hours later I log on... If I see any more victims I blow them up and log off... Repeat. Now that to me seems like an "easy mode". The game makes no effort at all to hold me accountable for the pointless seal clubbing. It makes no effort to inform any other CMDRs of my pointless vapid antics.
Now, onto your other points:-
"C&P will mean I either have to give up Piracy" - WHY? It's almost like you're not reason my responses, because I carefully addressed this very point. Why would the C&P (karma) mechanic I've mentioned require a single change of behaviour for you? Pirate away as much as you like, where ever you like. The C&P (karma) mechanic won't care. It's only if you start regularly illegally start destroying CMDRs it would care. And this would be your choice to make, along with the fair negative outcomes than would ensue.
"there isn't an NPC around that worries me in the slightest" - What's that got to do with C&P?
"but arranged duels with PvPers can lead to death and those new heightened rebuys" - Not with report crimes turned off as surely such meeting would ask for? If you're having an arranged PvP duel, why fly all the way to some specific system (eg: an anarchy one). Just go where ever is nearest and turn "Report Crimes" off?
Again, you seem to be throwing up issues that are not valid ones? I've yet to see you raise a single issue where applying a C&P (karma) mechanic to anarchy systes results in any real negative gameplay outcome...
(Irrespective of system type) Illegally destroy a few other CMDRs, no issue. Start making a habit out of it, and you'll get some low level penalties. May a full time occupation out of it, the penalties ramp up accoringly. The problem?
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Explorers on the move are far less likely to meet anyone, anywhere.
I'm thinking Explorers in terms of the Thargoid sites and Alien Ruins sites .... not very far away, and they are regularly trawled by seal clubbers because so many explorer commanders visit them together in Open (because of the need to work together and for the camaraderie).
Edit Add : - A Marshall NPC would track a highly offending (and offensive) player wherever he fled, even in Anarchy space. That's what Marshalls do.
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