The problem with the new C&P improvements

[PiLhEaD]

But not from anarchy systems, which is the issue you missed over adding C&P to them as well.

Nope, didn't miss that. That's why I specifically said high security sectors.

The level of restriction and police action should be directly proportionate to the security level of the system. Anarchy systems have no police and no restrictions by their very nature.

Seems sensible to me at least.

E. And +1 to Lightspeed for the Marshalls twist. If I was playing as a notorious criminal, that's exactly what I'd want!

 

[NeilF]

To be fair, the sarcasm was mild, and close to my actual opinion.

Give me an alternative to being a member of the PF and I won't care at all.

I'm nearly always a legal kill anyway.

Why the need for non-PF membership? Just give me a reason why a C&P (karma) mechanic that holds you accountable for habitual illegal destruction (to CMDRs and NPCs), even in anarchy systems, is not sensible, and would negatively impact on the game?

Because as I've said, I've not had a single one brought to my attention yet

 

[Jason Lightning]

What? Define how we've now got to this "easy game mode"? Let me define an easy mode for you. I fly to an alien ruin in my fully engineered combat ship. Any explorer I see I blow up for the lolz and log off. A couple of hours later I log on... If I see any more victims I blow them up and log off... Repeat. Now that to me seems like an "easy mode". The game makes no effort at all to hold me accountable for the pointless seal clubbing. It makes no effort to inform any other CMDRs of my pointless vapid antics.


Now, onto your other points:-

"C&P will mean I either have to give up Piracy" - WHY? It's almost like you're not reason my responses, because I carefully addressed this very point. Why would the C&P (karma) mechanic I've mentioned require a single change of behaviour for you? Pirate away as much as you like, where ever you like. The C&P (karma) mechanic won't care. It's only if you start regularly illegally start destroying CMDRs it would care. And this would be your choice to make, along with the fair negative outcomes than would ensue.

"there isn't an NPC around that worries me in the slightest" - What's that got to do with C&P?

"but arranged duels with PvPers can lead to death and those new heightened rebuys" - Not with report crimes turned off as surely such meeting would ask for? If you're having an arranged PvP duel, why fly all the way to some specific system (eg: an anarchy one). Just go where ever is nearest and turn "Report Crimes" off?


Again, you seem to be throwing up issues that are not valid ones? I've yet to see you raise a single issue where applying a C&P (karma) mechanic to anarchy systes results in any real negative gameplay outcome...

(Irrespective of system type) Illegally destroy a few other CMDRs, no issue. Start making a habit out of it, and you'll get some low level penalties. May a full time occupation out of it, the penalties ramp up accoringly. The problem?

For someone who claims to be using 'rheotoric' you seem to be rather selective in what you take away from my posts. When I say 'easy mode' I refer to everything not involving other players, and even most players frankly, bad ship build FDLs are rather common among Bounty hunter players. I also don't seal club, so I don't see what your point has to do with my motivations on what constitutes 'easy mode'. As a pirate my mercy rule on not killing traders and using an AspX is part of the challenge, it's harder to disable than kill, moreso in a non traditional combat ship. If I wanted to sealclub I'd just kill the traders, but I don't because it's too easy, most do not properly build even though they would lose a small amount of cargo space to be nigh immune to gankers or pirates.

Now in a PvP duel, which by default has no crimes on obviously, I still have to pay the C&P of all my previous pirating activity, which according to some suggestions adds up considerably. If I know I won't die pirating, then clearly my concern is the rebuy incurred from Dueling. A CQC arena that lets me use my personal ship and arrange duels would fix this issue, but we don't have something like that now do we?

 

[NeilF]

As a pirate my mercy rule on not killing traders and using an AspX is part of the challenge, it's harder to disable than kill, moreso in a non traditional combat ship. If I wanted to sealclub I'd just kill the traders, but I don't because it's too easy, most do not properly build even though they would lose a small amount of cargo space to be nigh immune to gankers or pirates.

Same here. I've very rarely destroyed a victim during piracy. I'd also say, I think piracy is a mess at the moment, even with recent changes such as the hatch break now going through shields as making a poorly balanced area of the game, even worse. It should need you to at least reduce the victim's shields down to 1 bar. Anyhoo...


I recall winging up with some other pirates once, who at the slightest issue took great delight in showing any victim the rebuy screenn. I hated this rather toxic approach to piracy and quickly unwinged. Personally I think it shows yet another reason why illegal destruction needs to be held accountable. ie: These guys should have been facing more negative outcomes for their blaze attitude to the habitual destruction of other CMDRs.

Now in a PvP duel, which by default has no crimes on obviously, I still have to pay the C&P of all my previous pirating activity, which according to some suggestions adds up considerably. If I know I won't die pirating, then clearly my concern is the rebuy incurred from Dueling. A CQC arena that lets me use my personal ship and arrange duels would fix this issue, but we don't have something like that now do we?

I can't comment on how FD's C&P (karma) mechanic will work, or indeed how many roulette wheel mechanics will be involved. But in the system I've discussed, your piracy would not register on it as you've decided not to destroy your (innocent) victims, so there would be no alteration to your rebuy. If you had decided to destroy loads of them, then you've made your choice, and there would be penalties...

 

[NeilF]

If the PF had issues with my behavior that lead them to label me a problem to be exterminated on sight, I'm not OK with being forced into PF membership.

An alternative organization to cover criminal activities would be needed.

It would be nice if we had that now.

And if the behaviour in question was not really being penalised because of the Pilots Federation, but in reality for the best outcome of the community in OPEN. ie: Prevent habitual illegal psychotic destruction? That would sound nice if we had that now.

 

[Zannry]

I'll be honest and state I haven't read the entirety of this thread so if I'm off base ignore me and I'll be on my way.

From what I've read, the main concerns about the C&P system revolve around PvP duels and potential abuse of mid combat toggling. Couldn't FD develop a duel invitation using the existing wing/multi crew framework that when accepted overrides crime reporting? This Duel couldn't be dismissed but ends upon ship destruction or when both players are no longer in the same instance (Low, Hi Wake).

 

[NeilF]

Now I'm just confused.

It's not illegal to destroy another CMDR's ship in an anarchy system. Even if done habitually.

How would changing that possibly be a positive thing for the game?

I get that you want it to be your way or no way, but to claim that it's because of your concern for the community is disingenuous at best.

How would that change be a negative thing?

I'm still waiting for a single considered answer to this question... If we invoked a C&P mechanic such that habitual illegal destruction of CMDRs (& NPCs) was penalised (no matter what the system), can you explain why this doesn't make sense from a game play point of view and or what constructive/useful element of gameplay is negatively affected?

Ultimately every CMDR has to the choice whether to illegally destroy another CMDR. If they do, and do so habitually, and start therefore incurring more and more penalties, the problem is?


As for you saying this C&P suggestion is not serving the the community, can you explain why you'd seemingly continue to support the ability for gankers to continue their activity in anarchy systems with not a single negative outcome? What's noble about groups of engineered combat ships destroying individual, out-gunned CMDRs? OVer and over? What's the problem that if they habitually destroy CMDRs over and over they start getting penalised? The problem is?

It's almost as if these gankers want the game entirely stacked their way or no way...


ps: I went through quite a lengthy example in post #590 - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...improvements?p=5674362&viewfull=1#post5674362 which strangely was then the end of the discussion on that front... Feel free to use that post as a reference point. Infact here it is for you to comment on if it helps you raise an issue:-

OK... Let's go through your issues with a C&P (karma) mechanic being across the board (ie: all system types including Anarchy).

Let's go though a scenario to see how it relates to these issues?

I'm pirate and I threaten a couple of victims, who not only don't comply, but even fight back. I'm not in a good mood so I end up blowing them both up. The C&P (karma) outcome? It's not negative to such a significant degree to cause me any implications/penalties.

So, how does this relate to your concerns?

Let's carry on... I now go to an alien site and destroy a few explorers for the lolz. This does push my C&P (karma) reputation into a negative enough position such that high security stations now deny me docking.

So, how does this relate to your concerns?

Let's carry on... I log back into the game and now destroy a dozen more explorers at an alien site. This well and truly pushes my C&P (karma) reputation into a a very negative position. Not only are more stations now denying me docking. Some high security systems won't even give me a permit to jump there. Also, I now have a Pilots Federation bounty on me no matter where I am. I'm a target no matter where I go, and indeed other CMDRs can see I'm a complete psycho.

So, how does this relate to your concerns?


I'd suggest what we witness above is an entirely fair and sensible treatment of someone's illegal destruction of other CMDRs. Do it sometimes, no problem. Make a habit out of it, then start facing more and more negative outcomes. And the problem? I'm still waiting to hear any! Instead I just get emotive rhetoric...

 

[sb413197]

Interdiction needs to cause a bounty. Small one maybe, but a bounty.

 

[yodajedifishmaster]

Yeah, new C&P improvements, all nice.

But this is all extremly easy to abuse against other players. Dishonorable PVPers who will interdict you asking for a duel, but turn crimes ON when they start losing, or people who lure you into shooting first. You will become wanted and all of these C&P improvements will punish YOU even though you're not the one who started a fight. We've also seen fights where the enemy wing had crimes OFF but they had a healer with them who had crimes ON. Shooting the healer made you wanted, even though they started the fight and all of them were wanted except the healer.


There has to be a clear way of telling who has crimes ON and who has them OFF. This way we can also tell who's looking for a fight and thus not waste time on PVEers. The option should be locked during fights to prevent switching and luring too.[alien]

welcome to the human race. sometimes people just have to be (spits) PEOPLE.... (look of disgust and contempt on face). and they wont change no matter what system is put in place. nothing exists to force people to grow the F&^* up.

 

[NeilF]

You go on and on about this, but you consistently gloss over the main flaw in your argument.

Killing your fellow CMDRs in anarchy systems is not illegal.



Making broad generalizations in bold type won't change the fact that it's you pushing an agenda here.



Yeah... more of the same.

Push your play-style down everyone else's throat, then claim it's "for the good of the community". What a load of nonsense.

So... You couldn't and didn't bring a single example or reason to bear? Count me as not surprised

You instead make sweeping statements, indeed basically some personal comments, but when asked to simply explain what the problem is with the proposal... You don't.


I'll address the one point you make - "Killing your fellow CMDRs in anarchy systems is not illegal". Under my (& other posters) proposed C&P mechanic, if you have no bounty (eg: A PF bounty) it would be counted as illegal (in an anarchy system). If you have a problem with the gameplay outcome of this by all means bring it to the table and explain it.

Indeed to not include anarchy systems in a C&P (karma) mechanic renders it almost pointless as the existing toxic ganking will only be amplified.

So just drop the pointless rhetoric and just discuss specifics. ie: Describe an actual gameplay example of an issue, if you feel you can (with a C&P mechanic "considering" illegal destruction no matter where is occurs, to CMDR or NPC).


SO again... PLEASE, just give some explicit example of why a C&P mechanic across the board in all systems would be counter productive to gameplay?:-
- Want to pirate? You can!
- Want to destroy some CMDRs while pirating? You can!
- Start destroying too many CMDRs? You get minor penalties.
- Start acting like a psycho? Your penalties are ramped up...

The problem is...?

 

[NeilF]

I gave you the single most glaring, in-your-face example of why you are wrong.

But the rules of the actual game we both purchased and play don't seem to matter to you.

The problem is you, NeilF...

The problem is you.

So I gave you a fairly simple example of the resultant gameplay if a C&P (karma) mechanic simply ramped up penalties as you illegally destroy more and more CMDRs (or NPCs) over say a given period (no matter the system type).

I then just asked if you could just explain how you thought this mechanic would result in a negative outcome in actual gameplay. You can't (or won't).

Instead you just continue with the personal comments again. Fair enough... So it seems after repeated attempts to engage you, you don't really have a constructive point. Just an agenda


I'm still willing to discuss the matter if you can actually describe a negative gameplay outcome you perceive, and just have any questions... But I would ask you drop the personal banter you feel compelled to include in your posts.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

I'm still willing to discuss the matter if you can actually describe a negative gameplay outcome you perceive, and any questions...

I confess that I haven't read the entire argument contained in this thread, so forgive me if there's some level of repetition of points that are already discussed.

Anarchy systems not being policed allows two gameplay choices:

Players can experience an extra element of risk by visiting areas which are outside the 'jurisdiction' of the Pilots Federation and where normal rules do not apply.
Players who wish to operate outside of the constraints of sociability have somewhere where they can play the game they way they wish.

I fail to see what is gained by NOT excluding Anarchy systems from the C&P/Karma system.

 

[Riverside]

I fail to see what is gained by NOT excluding Anarchy systems from the C&P/Karma system.

I believe we are looking for a way to allow PvP players to 'get a room' by jumping to a nearby Anarchy, and there appears to be some issue over the fact that this may affect their 'karma', despite the 'karma' system being intended to capture patterns of undesirable behaviour, and organised PvP is not undesirable.

If a player cynically uses the lack of law enforcement in an Anarchy system to pop newbies or the terminally naive personally I don't have a problem with it but I can see how that behaviour could usefully be tracked & taken into account on the players' 'karma' scoresheet.

Whether a PF bounty is applied or not seems moot, it's only money and I can see logic either way. It's the bad karma that is presumably the issue, to which again I don't have a problem.

A lack of self restraint is no fun for those around that player, it seems sensible to me to promote enjoyable PvP whilst discouraging toxic behaviour. I would include going into a known hotspot & complaining about getting attacked as toxic behaviour just as much as those seeking to wind up the meek.

 

[Shields Offline]

I can't wait for someone to find a CMDR's Cutter in a RES and drift in front of their target it in a shieldless Sidewinder - with crimes on, of course - and then suicide into them at full speed, thereby giving them a full Cutter rebuy next time they die in any ship.

It's a good thing the new karma system isn't at all vulnerable to trolling!

 

[Riverside]

I can't wait for someone to find a CMDR's Cutter in a RES and drift in front of their target it in a shieldless Sidewinder - with crimes on, of course - and then suicide into them at full speed, thereby giving them a full Cutter rebuy next time they die in any ship.

It's a good thing the new karma system isn't at all vulnerable to trolling!

I think maybe you miss the point of the proposed Karma system. If the Sidewinder pilot habitually gets themselves killed by Cmdrs who do not habitually kill sidewinders... can you see where this is going?

 

[Shields Offline]

That's my bad, I didn't mean the karma system, I meant the C&P added-rebuy-cost thing.

 

[Riverside]

That's my bad, I didn't mean the karma system, I meant the C&P added-rebuy-cost thing.

I don't think the PF (Pilots Federation) bounty is intended to be gank-proof, just a step in the right direction. The inattentive Cutter pilot may learn to be more careful next time

 

[Shields Offline]

It's absolutely nice to see FD taking steps in the right direction, and anything that encourages skill (even if it's just watching your radar for fuzzy signatures and keeping an eye on small ships relative to your line of fire) is good. However, it's only a matter of time before a troll op is put into effect and PVEers in expensive ships find themselves with expensive, unclearable rebuy bounties.

Also, this will have a chilling effect on legitimate PVP. Any PvPer who has ever killed another CMDR will now find themselves facing an unavoidable expensive rebuy should they wish to do some pre-arranged PvP. e.g. player gets a bounty while flying an FDL. Player then wants to do a 2v2 with friends in small ships to mess about. Player will now have to pay an FDL rebuy instead of a small ship rebuy. Instead, the player can just keep killing things in his FDL.
Following on from that, it discourages PVPers from flying anything but the largest ship they got a bounty in. Want to shoot players in an FDL? That's fine. Want to mess about shooting players in a Viper (an inherently more vulnerable ship with higher chances of dying)? Why bother if you have to pay an FDL rebuy for that, might as well keep flying your biggest, baddest ship.

FD have taken steps, but they're poorly thought out. Again.

 

[jasonbarron]

It's absolutely nice to see FD taking steps in the right direction, and anything that encourages skill (even if it's just watching your radar for fuzzy signatures and keeping an eye on small ships relative to your line of fire) is good. However, it's only a matter of time before a troll op is put into effect and PVEers in expensive ships find themselves with expensive, unclearable rebuy bounties.

Also, this will have a chilling effect on legitimate PVP. Any PvPer who has ever killed another CMDR will now find themselves facing an unavoidable expensive rebuy should they wish to do some pre-arranged PvP. e.g. player gets a bounty while flying an FDL. Player then wants to do a 2v2 with friends in small ships to mess about. Player will now have to pay an FDL rebuy instead of a small ship rebuy. Instead, the player can just keep killing things in his FDL.
Following on from that, it discourages PVPers from flying anything but the largest ship they got a bounty in. Want to shoot players in an FDL? That's fine. Want to mess about shooting players in a Viper (an inherently more vulnerable ship with higher chances of dying)? Why bother if you have to pay an FDL rebuy for that, might as well keep flying your biggest, baddest ship.

FD have taken steps, but they're poorly thought out. Again.

I'm just going to put this on the record right now: I predict this new system won't even make it through a beta test before being tabled indefinitely, similar to the several shield rebalance & gimballed tracking proposals.

 

[Lightspeed]

I confess that I haven't read the entire argument contained in this thread, so forgive me if there's some level of repetition of points that are already discussed.

Anarchy systems not being policed allows two gameplay choices:

Players can experience an extra element of risk by visiting areas which are outside the 'jurisdiction' of the Pilots Federation and where normal rules do not apply.
Players who wish to operate outside of the constraints of sociability have somewhere where they can play the game they way they wish.

I fail to see what is gained by NOT excluding Anarchy systems from the C&P/Karma system.

Unfortunately, it is in the Anarchy systems that the Thargoid bases and Ancient Ruins are found, where non-combative commanders gather to co-operate and enjoy one anothers' company. It is here that much of the absurd seal clubbing takes place. This has to be addressed in a C&P system.

My own preference is where the offenders against commanders (not NPCs) gather negative rep, a criminal record for attacking commanders who are not labelled as wanted. They should be hunted down by NPCs in Anarchy in a similar way to US Marshalls hunting criminals anywhere. It's the only way to deal with the problem, as far as I can see.