Why not the "little" ships

[yodajedifishmaster]

not exactly power creep. WoW isnt a good example in some ways - there is a clique of players who prevent many from getting the latest loot. want latest loot? got to do the top end raids. want to do top end raids? pah your ilvl is too poor we wont accept you on the endgame raids until you got the loot. ilvl fascists we called them. its one reason i quit WoW and went to LotRo where the community is more likely to say 'oh having trouble with fornost? let me grab my level 85 hunter and we'll run through the series of instances with you.' BUT power creep isnt the issue. its the current crop of gamerz brought up well after the original of this.

they are used to pathetic complere-in-6-hours single player token offline campaigns which they play once. they then move to online and expect to shoot everything that moves. to do that they need to unlock - or buy in ELITE case - the top end gear. so they want to do that ASAP. then they expect to kill everyone and brag about their K/D being so good, before next month/2months big new game is released by another big studio when they switch and rinse and repeat. and elite just doesnt work that way.

so you get people complain about having grind, and RNG and losing their OP anaconda to a bug or something. and impatience generally - because they have never ever played a game like elite before. they dont know how to handle it. they complain about solo mode - how can they complete the game if people can 'hide' (as they see it) so they cant kill them to stop undermining - completely refusing to accept the fact there are some people defending on their side in solo. its so cheap to do that the big games companies laugh all the way to the bank. what does MP really need by way of coding? engine to be able to handle maps and players with different weapons, and some people to make the maps and player avatars and the weapons and effects look good. oh and some rather basic AI for the token SP campaign. people complain about the npcs in elite - but they are so far beyond what you get in the FPS single player campaigns they are like geniuses. i find them challenging enough and i play solo exclusively.

i agree with OP that it would be nice to have missions needign small fast ships to covertly run to small surface or orbitting outposts that only have small pads. i disagree that there is no role for small ships. then again i count my cobras as small ships and even my 2 asps arent exactly giants. one cobra is a 1st class/business class passenger transport. thats all it does, and it has no cargo space, and has just enough armament to keep my passengers alive long enough to arrive - hence its name Safe and Sound. my cobra mkiv is a mission/armed trader. it has an srv for surface missions, and so i can pick up the jadeite i sometimes see lying around on the surface for taking. my FAS is my combat ship. it can do some trade - it has less cargo space than the cobra but its a harder kill so it gets used to transport goods that might attract trouble. the only ones i dont see roles for are things like the eagle. superfast couriers maybe?

 

[Kzasch]

One thing I'm not understanding. You want to fly a "cheap" small ship, but want to take part of some big payouts. What are you going to use the money on?

 

[yodajedifishmaster]

One thing I'm not understanding. You want to fly a "cheap" small ship, but want to take part of some big payouts. What are you going to use the money on?

i need the money for....REASONS...

 

[Pyrobee]

You're playing with words here. You know perfectly what I mean. Don't tell me that a viper does a better job in a hazres than a vulture or FDL. Don't tell me that a cobra is a better tradeship than the T9 or anaconda. Call it bulk or call it whatever the hell you want, but it still doesn't change that most players care about it, and it's a perfectly valid way to play.



You're still playing with words here. Of course you don't HAVE to do anything, but this is STILL is the way the game was designed. Again, just because you don't care about progression doesn't mean other people shouldn't.

Pregression is in the eye of the beholder, been playing since release and am not elite in anything, but have ebough cash and ships that I can go around doing what I want. It took time because i play causally and have RL commitments and didn't get my Annie until after a over year of playing, when the cutter got introduced had the rank but not the cash, my progression was getting it.

You can't really comapre ships in classes anymore it really depends on who is behind the controls and how much love the pilot hasd given that ship. I can take out players in vultures in a cobra or pythons with an eagle. All ships have their strong and weak points. The main progression in the game is learning how to fly all the ships.
I climbed the ship ladder and now find myself back in the smaller ships because they are fun and have the advantage of knowing the weaknesses of the larger ships by having flown them. A player flown anaconda used to fill me with fear when I was in a viper, now I'm lining up the interdictor

 

[Madrax573]

You're playing with words here. You know perfectly what I mean. Don't tell me that a viper does a better job in a hazres than a vulture or FDL. Don't tell me that a cobra is a better tradeship than the T9 or anaconda. Call it bulk or call it whatever the hell you want, but it still doesn't change that most players care about it, and it's a perfectly valid way to play.

You're still playing with words here. Of course you don't HAVE to do anything, but this is STILL is the way the game was designed. Again, just because you don't care about progression doesn't mean other people shouldn't.

I think you must be confused. I'm not playing with words I'm asking a simple question. What is efficiency?

Yes in a HAS Res I have flown with Vultures (Which is a small ship BTW so kinda proves my point) and FDL (medium ship, again kinda proves my point) and yes in my Viper IV I kill stuff just as quick as the other guys.

Yes I can trade rares very nicely in my Cobra IV and with it's jump range over the T-9's (your pick of ship) I can get more profit from a well picked route over the same time period. The annie with it's jump range would probably pip it in terms or overall credit/hr but in a ship that costs about 100 times less I'm happy to take a bit less creds/hr.

So no I'm not playing with words I'm trying to get you to understand that efficiency is not universal. It is a pure function of task and context.

The Game was not 'designed' for you to 'progress' from small cheap ships to larger more expensive ships. It is designed so you can choose what you want as your own 'progress' and gives you the ability to follow that as you see fit.

I'm not against the big ships. I just don't see much reason to fly them over small/medium ones. I do however fancy getting myself a T9 just cos it looks so cool in some of the ED trailers!

 

[h347h]

but I also own a Cobra II

That I find hard to believe!

Jokes aside I find small combat ships and the Cobra IV very useful. But it is a matter of taste. For me the smaller ships offer up an artificial challenge mode of sorts and the Cobra IV is one of my favorite mission ships.

 

[Madrax573]

That I find hard to believe!

Jokes aside I find small combat ships and the Cobra IV very useful. But it is a matter of taste. For me the smaller ships off up an artificial challenge mode of sorts and the Cobra IV is one of my favorite mission ships.

Cobra IV is one of the most useful and versatile ships in game. I do wish they would unlock it for everyone!

 

[Cervantes01]

Cobra IV is one of the most useful and versatile ships in game. I do wish they would unlock it for everyone!

I second this, as I don't have access to it, due to have been playing on an apple mac at the time, I've since bought windows exclusively for Elite and just crave the variety of lots of different ships and their differing capabilities, whether one ship is better than another isn't actually that important to me as long as they are all good in one specific way then I am happy. That's what variety and balance is all about.

On my hitlist is of course The Krait and the Cobra MK I yes Eagles and Cobra MK III"s are clearly going to be better than these vessels in their intended roles of space superiority fighter and utility ship respectively but that doesn't matter if the Krait and the MK I can do just one thing well, whether that's power management, boost speed, turning, or simply cool running engine design so that they vary enough to feel unique and worth flying.

Also, the VIPER MK IV is an incredible ship and the true successor to the sidewinder...

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Cobra IV is one of the most useful and versatile ships in game. I do wish they would unlock it for everyone!

Sorry dude, can't rep you again. Apparently you must have said something else i liked.

It is funny though, all the crying on the forums about how rubbish the CM4 was when it was announced, and some people still claim its a bad ship (perhaps from the perspective of viewing it as a combat ship), but i think its one of the best ships in the game. A crazy amount of internals for a small ship, making it viable for a wide range of rolls, and even in combat it isn't too bad if you kit it right. Plus having ALL hardpoints on top, means you can play to that in combat quite well, compared with the horrible hardpoint placement of the small hardpoints on the CM3.

There again, people said the Dropship was a rubbish ship, but have been proven wrong, and people said the Gunship was a rubbish ship and were proven wrong.

FD might make mistakes in some areas, but they don't tend to make badly balanced ships.... although still waiting for the T9 to get a buff to its MLF.

 

[Nalessa]

Pretty sure people do combat cg's in viper mk3/4's, probably some cobra's too.

Eagles usually are used by people who want to troll interdict spam people it seems.

 

[h347h]

Cobra IV is one of the most useful and versatile ships in game. I do wish they would unlock it for everyone!

Yeah I wish they would just add it for everyone and adjust it slightly so it would be more useful. It is hands down one of the sexiest ships in the game even with out kits I absolutely love its design.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

…
It is funny though, all the crying on the forums about how rubbish the CM4 was when it was announced, and some people still claim its a bad ship (perhaps from the perspective of viewing it as a combat ship), …

The Cobra Mk 4 is a bad ship. It's expensive compared to other ships in it's range. The speed is rubbish compared to the Cobra Mk3. The cargo space is better on the T-6 (a ship that is faster than the CM4 and only slightly more expensive).
Not going to talk about the maneuverability as it is almost as bad as the one of the keelback and the DBX.

It looks nice though.
And you can use it as a training ship for the Python. Similar flight characteristics without the price and the firepower and without the cargo space and without …

FD might make mistakes in some areas, but they don't tend to make badly balanced ships.... …

FD makes a lot of mistakes when it comes to balancing ships.
Just look at the Cutter and almost any small to medium ship - the Cutter is insanely fast. The result is, that the ship with the highest mass lock factor is faster than a lot of small ships. Ups.
Ships that got advertised as combat ships having terribly weak maneuvering thrusters - Cobra Mk4, Keelback and DBX come to mind.

FD constantly ignores or doesn't understand the "meta" of combat. I don't know why or how, because taking a ship for a spin in a RES should make the problems quite obvious.

 

[Eli Jack]

I second this, as I don't have access to it, due to have been playing on an apple mac at the time, I've since bought windows exclusively for Elite and just crave the variety of lots of different ships and their differing capabilities, whether one ship is better than another isn't actually that important to me as long as they are all good in one specific way then I am happy. That's what variety and balance is all about.

On my hitlist is of course The Krait and the Cobra MK I yes Eagles and Cobra MK III"s are clearly going to be better than these vessels in their intended roles of space superiority fighter and utility ship respectively but that doesn't matter if the Krait and the MK I can do just one thing well, whether that's power management, boost speed, turning, or simply cool running engine design so that they vary enough to feel unique and worth flying.

Also, the VIPER MK IV is an incredible ship and the true successor to the sidewinder...

I don't have access to the Cobra Mk IV either but the Viper Mk IV is just a wonderful ship and I fly it for everything except trading/mining for which I use a T6. I really don't like the Cobra's split windscreen, in fact I don't like any ship that doesn't have a central cockpit.

Tonight I spent some of my time in Asellus Primus in my Mk IV Viper. Never went below two shield rings but that wouldn't have mattered anyway as she packs around 1,750 hull (no hrp engineering yet) and I'm about the worst combat jockey there is.

I've flown every ship in the game and for me, the Viper Mk IV is the best ship there is. I just wish that you could upgrade the interior along the lines of an Eagle or Imp Eagle.

 

[Madrax573]

I don't have access to the Cobra Mk IV either but the Viper Mk IV is just a wonderful ship and I fly it for everything except trading/mining for which I use a T6. I really don't like the Cobra's split windscreen, in fact I don't like any ship that doesn't have a central cockpit.

Tonight I spent some of my time in Asellus Primus in my Mk IV Viper. Never went below two shield rings but that wouldn't have mattered anyway as she packs around 1,750 hull (no hrp engineering yet) and I'm about the worst combat jockey there is.

I've flown every ship in the game and for me, the Viper Mk IV is the best ship there is. I just wish that you could upgrade the interior along the lines of an Eagle or Imp Eagle.

IMO the Viper IV should be the MK IV that everyone should get if they can't get the Cobra MK IV.

I have them both and love them both!! The Viper is a bit more specialised but it is still one of the bets small ships in game!

 

[Madrax573]

The Cobra Mk 4 is a bad ship. It's expensive compared to other ships in it's range. The speed is rubbish compared to the Cobra Mk3. The cargo space is better on the T-6 (a ship that is faster than the CM4 and only slightly more expensive).
Not going to talk about the maneuverability as it is almost as bad as the one of the keelback and the DBX.

It looks nice though.
And you can use it as a training ship for the Python. Similar flight characteristics without the price and the firepower and without the cargo space and without …



FD makes a lot of mistakes when it comes to balancing ships.
Just look at the Cutter and almost any small to medium ship - the Cutter is insanely fast. The result is, that the ship with the highest mass lock factor is faster than a lot of small ships. Ups.
Ships that got advertised as combat ships having terribly weak maneuvering thrusters - Cobra Mk4, Keelback and DBX come to mind.

FD constantly ignores or doesn't understand the "meta" of combat. I don't know why or how, because taking a ship for a spin in a RES should make the problems quite obvious.

The only thing 'bad' about the Cobra IV is the speed/agility of it. The extra cost is quite simply because it is sooo much better at most things.
Hardpoint placement smashes the Cobra III and 5 hardpoints instead of 4.
The internals also smash the MK III.

As for the agility/maneuverability Yes it's like the keelback (also a bloody good ship) but so what?! I can happily stick around in a HAZRes in either the Cobra IV or KB and murder stuff until all my mats are gone for reloads....And the DBE?!?!? Really? Come one a well fit/flown DBE is a monster in any RES site you want to take it into!
Sounds like you listen to a lot of misinformed drivel if that is your opinion of those ships.

FD in general do have very well balance ships. Yes they make some mistakes but a couple of mistakes does not detract from the fact that every ship in the game can be useful in a variety of roles and effective enough that you don't HAVE TO HAVE one particular ship to do a specific task.

As for the 'meta' of combat. Well it's like the weather. It's one thing for a while then someone comes along and blasts it to bits then it changes to something else for a while. That is the nature of multiplayer games. FD should NOT design stuff to the current 'meta' as it will just lead to stagnation of the game and the railroading that ED avoids so well so far.

Sorry dude, can't rep you again. Apparently you must have said something else i liked.

It is funny though, all the crying on the forums about how rubbish the CM4 was when it was announced, and some people still claim its a bad ship (perhaps from the perspective of viewing it as a combat ship), but i think its one of the best ships in the game. A crazy amount of internals for a small ship, making it viable for a wide range of rolls, and even in combat it isn't too bad if you kit it right. Plus having ALL hardpoints on top, means you can play to that in combat quite well, compared with the horrible hardpoint placement of the small hardpoints on the CM3.

There again, people said the Dropship was a rubbish ship, but have been proven wrong, and people said the Gunship was a rubbish ship and were proven wrong.

FD might make mistakes in some areas, but they don't tend to make badly balanced ships.... although still waiting for the T9 to get a buff to its MLF.

Spot on AA! Also stop saying stuff that I like as I can't rep you again!

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

The only thing 'bad' about the Cobra IV is the speed/agility of it. The extra cost is quite simply because it is sooo much better at most things. …

The T-6 costs roughly the same with good modules and is faster, has more cargo space and better jump range. CM4 has better defenses.
Outside of combat the T-6 can do everything the CM4 can just better.
And for combat a lot of cheaper ships are better.

If it makes you happy then replace "bad ship" with "not a good ship compared to other similar ships". For me if all other ship options are better, then I consider that ship "bad".

Sounds like you listen to a lot of misinformed drivel if that is your opinion of those ships.
…

I have theses ships and I have tested them. My opinion about the ships I mentioned is based on my own experience with those ships.

 

[Madrax573]

If you've flown them then your opinion is perfectly fine. I was merely commenting on the statements that everyone uses to describe how 'bad' the ship is.

I also think the T-6 is an excellent ship. I completed my first multi Klyr trip in one. However the T-6 is almost 1.3x price of the Cobra IV. So the 'extra' that the T-6 has over the Cobra IV would be justified IMO. Again I think it is an excellent ship but given the combat side of things then you surely would have to admit that the Cobra IV is indeed more flexible than a T-6?

This is also a very good thing that similar 'range' ships can compete at doing similar tasks as this also allows for pilots to have a 'feel' for what they like. e.g a lot of people I know don't like lakon ships full stop. Same for other ship makers. This allows a lot of diversity in ED so that not everyone is flying the same ship as everyone else.

As for your description of a 'bad' ship I would struggle to find any ship in the game that doesn't have things that a lot of other ships can do better. That is good design or once again everyone would be in that one ship that can do everything better than every other ship.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

…
This is also a very good thing that similar 'range' ships can compete at doing similar tasks as this also allows for pilots to have a 'feel' for what they like. e.g a lot of people I know don't like lakon ships full stop. Same for other ship makers. This allows a lot of diversity in ED so that not everyone is flying the same ship as everyone else.
…

I absolutely agree with you on that "feel" for the ship. Some ships just don't feel right for me, others do feel right but are objectively not the best choice for what I use them.

Having the current ships "interpreted" by the various manufacturers would be cool. Taking the concept of the ship and "interpret" it according to the design philosophy of the manufacturer.
For example: a Gutamaya Cobra Mk3, a Lakon Cobra Mk3, a Core Dynamics Cobra Mk3… Not the shape of the Cobra Mk3, but the statistic of it with slight variations to make them feel like ships of the different manufacturers. Obviously with different names.

Next could be strange specialized ships with their own unique strengths and quirks (weaknesses). SLF with FSD would be cool - mostly useless but really cool.

 

[Zeeman]

FAS, FDL, Conda for combat? Come and meet me in my Vulture OP, I'll give you some funny times

It's not always about the ship size. A small ship can give you a really hard time if equipped and flown right, and maybe even send you to the rebuy screen

To this day, no matter how much engineering and time I spend on the FDL, I still kill more, and last longer in a CZ in my Vulture than my FDL.

I absolutely agree with you on that "feel" for the ship. Some ships just don't feel right for me, others do feel right but are objectively not the best choice for what I use them.

Having the current ships "interpreted" by the various manufacturers would be cool. Taking the concept of the ship and "interpret" it according to the design philosophy of the manufacturer.
For example: a Gutamaya Cobra Mk3, a Lakon Cobra Mk3, a Core Dynamics Cobra Mk3… Not the shape of the Cobra Mk3, but the statistic of it with slight variations to make them feel like ships of the different manufacturers. Obviously with different names.

Next could be strange specialized ships with their own unique strengths and quirks (weaknesses). SLF with FSD would be cool - mostly useless but really cool.

SLF, where you could dismiss your mothership, would be awesome for exploration builds.

Z...

 

[Lobey]

not exactly power creep. WoW isnt a good example in some ways - there is a clique of players who prevent many from getting the latest loot. want latest loot? got to do the top end raids. want to do top end raids? pah your ilvl is too poor we wont accept you on the endgame raids until you got the loot. ilvl fascists we called them. its one reason i quit WoW and went to LotRo where the community is more likely to say 'oh having trouble with fornost? let me grab my level 85 hunter and we'll run through the series of instances with you.' BUT power creep isnt the issue. its the current crop of gamerz brought up well after the original of this.

they are used to pathetic complere-in-6-hours single player token offline campaigns which they play once. they then move to online and expect to shoot everything that moves. to do that they need to unlock - or buy in ELITE case - the top end gear. so they want to do that ASAP. then they expect to kill everyone and brag about their K/D being so good, before next month/2months big new game is released by another big studio when they switch and rinse and repeat. and elite just doesnt work that way.

so you get people complain about having grind, and RNG and losing their OP anaconda to a bug or something. and impatience generally - because they have never ever played a game like elite before. they dont know how to handle it. they complain about solo mode - how can they complete the game if people can 'hide' (as they see it) so they cant kill them to stop undermining - completely refusing to accept the fact there are some people defending on their side in solo. its so cheap to do that the big games companies laugh all the way to the bank. what does MP really need by way of coding? engine to be able to handle maps and players with different weapons, and some people to make the maps and player avatars and the weapons and effects look good. oh and some rather basic AI for the token SP campaign. people complain about the npcs in elite - but they are so far beyond what you get in the FPS single player campaigns they are like geniuses. i find them challenging enough and i play solo exclusively.

i agree with OP that it would be nice to have missions needign small fast ships to covertly run to small surface or orbitting outposts that only have small pads. i disagree that there is no role for small ships. then again i count my cobras as small ships and even my 2 asps arent exactly giants. one cobra is a 1st class/business class passenger transport. thats all it does, and it has no cargo space, and has just enough armament to keep my passengers alive long enough to arrive - hence its name Safe and Sound. my cobra mkiv is a mission/armed trader. it has an srv for surface missions, and so i can pick up the jadeite i sometimes see lying around on the surface for taking. my FAS is my combat ship. it can do some trade - it has less cargo space than the cobra but its a harder kill so it gets used to transport goods that might attract trouble. the only ones i dont see roles for are things like the eagle. superfast couriers maybe?

This pretty much bangs the nail on the head - should stick this post on the first page of elites website so folk have an idea what they are getting into.