Karma vs PvP Piracy

[nanite2000]

The extraordinary pay for hauling "biowaste" is baffling.

You are not just being paid for the value of the cargo - you are being also paid for:

1. The distance you are hauling the cargo.
2. The 'danger' you will face on the way (i.e. chances of being interdicted, and the combat skill of the pilot who interdicts you).

 

[Ozram]

You are not just being paid for the value of the cargo - you are being also paid for:

1. The distance you are hauling the cargo.
2. The 'danger' you will face on the way (i.e. chances of being interdicted, and the combat skill of the pilot who interdicts you).

Yeah and why would anyone pay for that? Like I said, it's baffling.

 

[SuBSynk]

Only if they fly directly away from you while trying to escape, which is usually the worst way to escape, especially if your ship isn't faster than what's chasing you.



It's essentially impossible to stop someone who adamantly resists a piracy attempt without destroying them.

Even if you can get the cargo out of their ship, if they don't think you are willing to destroy them, there would be no incentive for them to let you scoop the cargo.

I have pirated for 2-3 years now and i can tell you that it is very easy to pirate someone and not kill them. They are traders, you have all the tools to disable them and remove cargo.

In order to take out drives certain tools can be used such as seekers/packhounds but mostly by then you have already partially failed. A perfect piracy interaction occurs without a shot being fired..therefore no cops and plenty of time to scoop cargo.

This tired argument about them fearing you is utter rubbish i know as a person that has pirated solidly for years that the majority will drop cargo with even a little persuasion.

My latest piracy ship is a diamondback scout and with it i managed to collect enough cargo off players at the Lave CG to hit tier 2...no commanders were killed extracting the cargo even though many ran and some even opened fire.

Piracy is one of if not the hardest professions in the game, it takes a lot of practise to pull off correctly. A pirate has to be sneaky and avoid all PvPers whilst interdicting their prey and removing small amounts of cargo before the police (or PVPers) arrive in the instance.

I understand why some people get irritated and lose patience with traders that refuse to comply etc but killing a trader is a complete fail as far as piracy go's, no cargo and less likely to ever see that particular trader in open again.

 

[nanite2000]

Yeah and why would anyone pay for that? Like I said, it's baffling.

The system economies that pay the highest for Biowaste are almost always 'Agriculture'. So, fertiliser.

Biowaste can also be used for:

* Heat (burning methane)
* Electricity generation (from heat)
* Cultivation of bacteria (used in medicine and agriculture)
* Terraforming (introduction of bacteria into previously sterile environments).

Waste has value.

Source: My girlfriend works in the waste industry.

 

[SuBSynk]

Not what you class as pirates? In what context did the pirate go on to kill their 'victim'? It's a ROBBERY not a negotiation. What happens when someone doesn't give up the loot to a robber in RL? That's right, nothing good. It has nothing to do with being historically accurate Sandro, and everything to do with the fact that a pirate's threat needs real teeth otherwise it's no good.

Many CMDRs have stated "The Code will only kill if you run or don't comply" because they know this to be true. Why? Because we make good on our threats.

I feel this was an irresponsible statement from you as the Lead Designer. Do you speak for everyone at Frontier? Did you consider the implications of such a statement? Are you saying that you don't classify CMDRs that will kill when their mark refuses to surrender the booty as 'real pirates'?

I'm sorry but to me this is not true in the slightest. Traders do not care if you are some sort of group, alone or have a "CODE". They are acting in the moment and will go down 1 of several paths to escape all of which are easily countered. Killing a trader only makes them less likely to play in open...that is all.

I have debated this with the "CODE" for over 2 years now and my theory on pushing players to trade in private/solo has been proven correct. You can talk as much rubbish about "threats must be taken seriously" as you like but killing traders when they run makes you a murderer not a pirate and frankly ruins the piracy profession for the rest of us real pirates!!

Traders expect pirates to be murderers now due to some players attempts at piracy and it is making the act more difficult than ever. Learn to pirate without killing and you can call yourself a pirate, until then its only fair you are tarred with the same brush as other ganker/griefer types by the Karma system.

 

[Ozram]

The system economies that pay the highest for Biowaste are almost always 'Agriculture'. So, fertiliser.

Biowaste can also be used for:

* Heat (burning methane)
* Electricity generation (from heat)
* Cultivation of bacteria (used in medicine and agriculture)
* Terraforming (introduction of bacteria into previously sterile environments).

Waste has value.

Source: My girlfriend works in the waste industry.

Not more value than platinum. Sorry, the numbers just don't add up.

 

[kofeyh]

It seems to me that people who insist on player vs player exchanges will find a reason to do so. Piracy is just one of those borderline role playing/ganking activities that allows a player to gank players otherwise minding their own business, and do so under the guise of emergent gameplay.

This is dangerously close to invoking hotel-california debate, which isn't really useful. Lumping piracy with 'gank', doesn't magically make it the same thing. Just like putting tea/ coffee in the same sentence doesn't automatically make them interchangeable.

Piracy is part of the game. AI or player, just as combat is part of the game. One can elect if one wishes to have Player based piracy occur (by electing solo) but it's still part of the game. There is even a Pirate PP faction:

http://elite-dangerous.wikia.com/wiki/Archon_Delaine

So, given piracy is part of the existing mechanics, the next question really isn't "does it exist?", it is "how is it improved, for all concerned?". There is no genie to be put back into the bottle; it's how does the game improve the end result. Try looking at it from the perspective of "the thing I like doing, just doesn't work very well" or "the thing others do isn't impacting me in a way I would expect", rather than the "are you sure this even exists?" perspective, which isn't very relevant and is just going to invoke hotel-california commentary.

It's a part of the game; and so much like any other part of the game, it would be good to see improvements. Piracy is complicated; it's morally challenging and yet can be quite rewarding in it's own way, when things work out. The problem is, things don't work out often enough that it's caused a lot of damage. For, imho, far too long. Frontier are, ultimately, responsible here.

So for me? I'd like to see improvements, because it's part of the fabric of the game, and really should be a more workable experience. Karma could actually be a very positive step here; but I think making pirates essentially end up the same as motive-less ganking, isn't the best solution. Instead, improving the experience would result in a far more positive outcomes.

 

[nanite2000]

Not more value than platinum. Sorry, the numbers just don't add up.

What use is platinum to a farmer? Or to a terraformer?

 

[Ozram]

What use is platinum to a farmer? Or to a terraformer?

Dude, argue it how you like. It doesn't add up. Any of the places you mention will have access to biowaste for far less and closer by. It's silly to keep up his pretence.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I'm sorry but to me this is not true in the slightest. Traders do not care if you are some sort of group, alone or have a "CODE". They are acting in the moment and will go down 1 of several paths to escape all of which are easily countered. Killing a trader only makes them less likely to play in open...that is all.

I have debated this with the "CODE" for over 2 years now and my theory on pushing players to trade in private/solo has been proven correct. You can talk as much rubbish about "threats must be taken seriously" as you like but killing traders when they run makes you a murderer not a pirate and frankly ruins the piracy profession for the rest of us real pirates!!

Traders expect pirates to be murderers now due to some players attempts at piracy and it is making the act more difficult than ever. Learn to pirate without killing and you can call yourself a pirate, until then its only fair you are tarred with the same brush as other ganker/griefer types by the Karma system.

Dang, already repped you. Stop making sensible posts please!

 

[Schmack]

This is dangerously close to invoking hotel-california debate, which isn't really useful. Lumping piracy with 'gank', doesn't magically make it the same thing. Just like putting tea/ coffee in the same sentence doesn't automatically make them interchangeable.

Piracy is part of the game. AI or player, just as combat is part of the game. One can elect if one wishes to have Player based piracy occur (by electing solo) but it's still part of the game. There is even a Pirate PP faction:

http://elite-dangerous.wikia.com/wiki/Archon_Delaine

So, given piracy is part of the existing mechanics, the next question really isn't "does it exist?", it is "how is it improved, for all concerned?". There is no genie to be put back into the bottle; it's how does the game improve the end result. Try looking at it from the perspective of "the thing I like doing, just doesn't work very well" or "the thing others do isn't impacting me in a way I would expect", rather than the "are you sure this even exists?" perspective, which isn't very relevant and is just going to invoke hotel-california commentary.

It's a part of the game; and so much like any other part of the game, it would be good to see improvements. Piracy is complicated; it's morally challenging and yet can be quite rewarding in it's own way, when things work out. The problem is, things don't work out often enough that it's caused a lot of damage. For, imho, far too long. Frontier are, ultimately, responsible here.

So for me? I'd like to see improvements, because it's part of the fabric of the game, and really should be a more workable experience. Karma could actually be a very positive step here; but I think making pirates essentially end up the same as motive-less ganking, isn't the best solution. Instead, improving the experience would result in a far more positive outcomes.

Outside of Powerplay, where do pirates fit in? Unless you think that non-Powerplay players should also be subjected to the same things that PP folks are by other PP folks, how do you make an exception for pirating?

I have ships from PP leaders scan me all the time, never had one attack me. When I was pledged they'd attack. How does that jive with pirates? Does playing in open automatically sign you up for anything goes?

 

[Schmack]

You are not just being paid for the value of the cargo - you are being also paid for:

1. The distance you are hauling the cargo.
2. The 'danger' you will face on the way (i.e. chances of being interdicted, and the combat skill of the pilot who interdicts you).

Not really. I'm hauling something like 11 Ly, and about 170Ls from the star. Those who do give chase are often cobras or vipers, no match for an engineered Python or Anaconda. I usually just avoid their attempt, not worth it and I lose more if I don't make the added time bonuses than I'd make on the kill payout.

Being selective, you can net 20K per ton per 1 way run, and 500K on the return for this or that (tea right now). So with 428 or so tons on the Annie, you can do pretty well if you Tetris the missions in there, avoiding the lower payout, higher tonnage requests.

Regardless, the delivery missions never make sense on a cost per ton at the market basis. They instead seem a bit random. The same faction will ask for 6 tons and offer almost 500K to deliver, and a mission just below asking for 138 tons for something like 450K. Obviously you take as many of those 6 ton missions as you can, up to 20.

 

[babelfisch]

As I said earlier in this thread, it takes two to pirate. One being the pirate and the other playing a long, doing you a favour. Yes, piracy is a valid option, yes, the game is a sand box. However, this only works if I allow you to pirate me. Stop expecting you have a right to pirate people. You have a right to play the game, if there are people who are nice enough to play the victim consider yourself lucky. There doesn't need to be a lever to force piracy upon players (ship destruction), I already agreed with playing cops and robbers or pirates and traders when I joined open. What the game needs are good game mechanics, unpunishable murder is not among them. Stop acting like a punishment for murder would harm your pirate career. Me telling you I don't want to play with you anymore will hurt your pirate career. My mother always told me don't play with the filthy kids (she didn't..). That's you.

I pretty much agree with lots of suggestions on how to improve piracy, like a declare piracy option or the tether device. But let's see if we can find a pattern here:

Pirates complain that shooting the cargo hatch is too difficult: FDEV adds cargo hatch breakers
Pirates complain that ships blow up when you destroy the drives: FDEV removes ship destruction for drives
Pirates complain that destroying shields is too difficult: FDEV adds shield breaking cargo hatch limpets
Pirates complain about traders escaping: FDEV adds FSD disruptor missiles.
Pirates complain about ships with disabled thrusters drifting away: Sandro talks about adding a tethering device

Players complain about there being literally no consequence for ship destruction: Pirates complain this would destroy their playstyle.
Seriously?
And this with all the talk about care bears and people wanting easy mode? Is there really no honour amongst thieves? Don't you think this gets a little bit ridiculous? How about you ask FDEV to send someone over to my house so he can force me to play your victim? Apparently everything else is too difficult for you. My advice: Git gud.

 

[Truesilver]

Lastly? I strongly believe very negative karma should result in considerable bounties. Bearing in mind this now means some AI may be worth a packet, so cruising SC, hunting for bounties, or new in-game ways for commanders to get APBs for those that are quite notorious (AI and Commander alike, this really needs to be a global thing) may be far more effective than simply farming res sites. It also means the very best PVP gankers will have a real challenge to gain & retain mammoth bounties, that a lot of commanders will want to come collect.

Capping the PF bounty, if it comes to that, 100% will make it just as ineffectual as the existing bounty system. Let's try to learn from that mistake, to make the stick actually mean something.

I'm afraid that I don't think we'll ever return to the days when Derath and Bangfish had 100 million credit player-recoverable bounties. Frontier capped PvP bounty recovery at 1,000,000 for good reason: player group sharing and credit farming.

If the PvP bounty recovery was raised to 100 million, all new members of PvP player groups would be gifted 100 million after their first week. Farmers will literally kill a stream of buddies coming out of a station, one after the other, respawning, until 100 player kills are met and negative karma maximised, then let the new guy kill them.

Don't think that they care about being locked out of stations or whatever because these would be second accounts.

It's already normal in player groups to give the 1,000,000 capped bounties to newbie members as regularly as possible. That would just become 100 million. Nobody cares about rebuys because creds are infinite. I know a guy who made 2 billion creds in one night.

Also, gold farmers would sell online for RL cash.

Sorry but this is why we can't have nice things.

 

[Riverside]

Sorry but this is why we can't have nice things.

I agree with your logic Truesilver, however I do think carrying your bounty with pride & living with the consequences should be a thing. I keep coming back to the idea of taking the bounty from the player's account when it's paid out.

As you say bounties can already be gifted to a friend, with just the cost of a sidewinder for the one with the bounty. How would it work if exactly the same situation applied as it does now but the player also has that bounty cost removed from their bank balance?

ETA the amount removed from the player's account would not need to be capped at 1mil Cr, it could be the full amount.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Pilots Federation members never get murdered, they instead jettison in the escape pod. Last time I checked murder requires people to die.

.... that's why there were inverted commas around "murderer" - murder is what the bounty associated with the destruction of a ship is called, after all....

 

[Riverside]

.... that's why there were inverted commas around "murderer" - murder is what the bounty associated with the destruction of a ship is called, after all....

I agree, and I don't think arguing over semantics like this furthers the debate. We all know what 'murder' means in the context of the ED universe. NPCs die, Cmdrs respawn.

 

[Truesilver]

I agree with your logic Truesilver, however I do think carrying your bounty with pride & living with the consequences should be a thing. I keep coming back to the idea of taking the bounty from the player's account when it's paid out.

As you say bounties can already be gifted to a friend, with just the cost of a sidewinder for the one with the bounty. How would it work if exactly the same situation applied as it does now but the player also has that bounty cost removed from their bank balance?

I'm afraid that it would just amount to instant direct credit transfer, and that's the problem.

I know of players with well over 10 billion assets who positively want to give billions to fellow player group members but have no current means of doing so beyond cargo transfer, which is impractical.

High bounty acquisition and distribution circumvents the game's time constraints because it makes transferable creds out of thin air. The murder makes the creds transferable instantly.

All serious player groups have guys who play more than 12 hours/day and gold farmers have employees or family members to do it. Time and base creds mean nothing to them.

But for the regular player it works like this: gold farmer or buddy donator sits in FAS shooting stream of buddies in shieldless stock Sidewinders, getting a kill every few seconds, then donates 100 million bounty instantly to customer/friend.

Then during downtime returns to 50 to 100 mil/Cr/hour credit generation.

So even if the full bounty came out of the FAS guys' account, for 10 hours of replenishment he's able near instantly to effect a one billion credit transfer to another player.

I'm afraid I don't think FDev will ever permit that.

 

[StiTch]

Learn to pirate without killing and you can call yourself a pirate, until then its only fair you are tarred with the same brush as other ganker/griefer types by the Karma system.

Good to see the nonsense parade is still at large

Sorry but this argument will never be a leg to stand on. What are the only grounds for complaints about murder? That it is interfering with your game. It doesn't make the attacker a bad person IRL, it doesn't affect anyone outside that. It simply hurts the feelings of the person that was attacked if they cannot take it well.

But off the back of that, it's entirely acceptable to tell someone they aren't allowed their own playstyle because of this hysteria? Lol. If a player wants to play as a pirate, and that pirate resorts to violence when a target refuses to co-operate, then you have no right to dismiss that as valid RP. And don't forget you had two other game modes/Mobius to place yourself in.

Murder without trying to extract cargo is, well, just murder. But if a pirate isn't cheating, and has asked someone to drop cargo, then the consequences aren't for the trader to argue with. And the pirate should make a call between whether relatively peaceful disabling, more aggressive disabling, or outright murder is the best course of action between the current situation and future reputation.

But it's still the pirates decision. And something tells me that no matter how any pirate acts, these forums will still break down at the mention of it as with any non-peaceful player interaction. Just glad folks in-game aren't quite so bad.

In any case...stop trying to stop others play their way

 

[Robert Maynard]

High bounty acquisition and distribution circumvents the game's time constraints because it makes transferable creds out of thin air. The murder makes the creds transferable instantly.

It would seem then that Frontier's mention of increased rebuy costs for a player with poor karma would be one way to go - as the player that destroys the poor karma player does not see any of that.