NPC Wingmen (Sandro)

Hello Commanders!

This is something we still haven't reached a decision on.

The idea of NPC wingmen is totally cool, but there are some interesting issues, mainly revolving around balance. What we'd prefer to avoid is a wingman being a "no-brainer" in terms of effectiveness.

Hang on? Balance? Is it really 'balanced' to allow the lone player in open to be interdicted by wings? Surely the point of allowing NPC hires is to restore some of the balance that was lost in 1.2, and further distorted with engineers? Also, there was that idea that maltreated, or underpaid, wingmen could turn on the player that was bandied about? (Of course, actually penalising modern games in any way is always problematic).
 
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Hello Commanders!

This is something we still haven't reached a decision on.

The idea of NPC wingmen is totally cool, but there are some interesting issues, mainly revolving around balance. What we'd prefer to avoid is a wingman being a "no-brainer" in terms of effectiveness.

Yeah, this would possibly break PvP encounters. You guys should just keep improving ship launched fighters, with more variety and gameplay.
 
Sounds dangerously like player-managed fleets....

NPCs to fly your own ships, each potentially equipped with a fighter bay?

I'd welcome it, but I can also see it being used mostly by the less (in-game) financially-challenged CMDRs
 
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If you didn't allow CMDR wings mixed with NPC wings, that'd sort a few of the balancing issues out.

Like I said earlier, non-consensual PvP will always be out of whack.
For 100% balanced PvP, you have CQC.

Even in PvP enabled MMORPGs, it's quite likely you can be a lvl10 and be ganked by a party of 4 lvl 99s. Lol
Doesn't mean it's unbalanced. Just outmatched.

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead
 

verminstar

Banned
Hello Commanders!

This is something we still haven't reached a decision on.

The idea of NPC wingmen is totally cool, but there are some interesting issues, mainly revolving around balance. What we'd prefer to avoid is a wingman being a "no-brainer" in terms of effectiveness.

An official response...wow.

Im assuming the balance issues would be something to do with combat? So theres no issue with the likes of exploration and trading which doesnt even require one to be armed to reach elite in? So why not improve two out of three which should be easy when balance isnt really a huge issue, and then come to a compromise of sorts fer combat? Why should the rest of be denied what could be a very cool headline feature just because the combat becomes somewhat unbalanced...its already unbalanced as is the nature pf the beast, it will almost certainly never be balanced ^
 
Hello Commanders!

This is something we still haven't reached a decision on.

The idea of NPC wingmen is totally cool, but there are some interesting issues, mainly revolving around balance. What we'd prefer to avoid is a wingman being a "no-brainer" in terms of effectiveness.

Not sure i'd want any NPC's flying my ships. They aren't good enough and the only thing they would do is cost me more in rebuys...
 

Sandro Sammarco

Lead Designer
Frontier
Hello Commander Lobstris!

Fundamentally, if we simply allowed NPC wingmen without restraint, it might very well make the situation worse *and* make having wingmen more mandatory, which is not something we really want.

I'm not saying we've dropped the idea, just that it has a lot of ramifications that we don't want to take lightly.
 
Hello Commanders!

This is something we still haven't reached a decision on.

The idea of NPC wingmen is totally cool, but there are some interesting issues, mainly revolving around balance. What we'd prefer to avoid is a wingman being a "no-brainer" in terms of effectiveness.

Valid concerns, but i think that as long as you maintain the four heads wing limit, with hired pilots counting as an head, and being the same three pilots you can hire for slf, with the included costs of salary and ships for the npcs, i think it could be manageable, and add a new layer to the gameplay.

In open play the are already wings, and in solo play would just allow more gameplay.
 
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Hello Commander Lobstris!

Fundamentally, if we simply allowed NPC wingmen without restraint, it might very well make the situation worse *and* make having wingmen more mandatory, which is not something we really want.

I'm not saying we've dropped the idea, just that it has a lot of ramifications that we don't want to take lightly.
Understood. Thanks.
 
I think some are missing the point of what Sandro's saying. The biggest concern is that EVERYBODY flies in a wing, (i.e. it becomes the "meta"), or flying in a wing becomes the only way to survive period. Remember that wings as it stands is meant to be a driver of community/social interaction between IRL players, so you don't just drop NPC wings on the community without considering how it affects the intent of existing mechanics. All he's saying is that they are considering those things, and it's not a small balancing act to figure out (and this implies there are other, more thoroughly worked-out things they are currently developing). You might think it's as easy as "make it cost money", but what if you need a wing to stay alive and you can't afford it? What if they add this and then later want to add missions that require a wing to complete, but an NPC wing just doesn't have the AI to make it work? Sometimes you keep some cans on the shelf until you have fleshed out other aspects of the design.

Now, with all of that said I do wish FD would drop some features on the community and let the community itself guide where it goes. MVP/pivoting and all that. I know that's not their M.O. but I think it would be good fun and lead down some interesting roads. I also realize that some would say that the game has been precisely this from day one, but eh... no. FD likes to keep a tight hold on the feature set, that much is clear.
 
Hello Commanders!

This is something we still haven't reached a decision on.

The idea of NPC wingmen is totally cool, but there are some interesting issues, mainly revolving around balance. What we'd prefer to avoid is a wingman being a "no-brainer" in terms of effectiveness.

50% profit sharing!
 
Hello Commander Lobstris!

Fundamentally, if we simply allowed NPC wingmen without restraint, it might very well make the situation worse *and* make having wingmen more mandatory, which is not something we really want.

I'm not saying we've dropped the idea, just that it has a lot of ramifications that we don't want to take lightly.

Fair enough. I can completely see the point that wingmen shouldn't be a de facto mandatory solution for the solo pilot with enough cash, and shouldn't exacerbate existing problems. As CMDR_Cosmicspacehead says, personally I'd limit player wings to be unable to hire NPCs (irrespective of the 4 ship wing limit). Not sure about where MC ships fit in to the equation though? :/ It would also make general PvE encounters pretty easy for anyone in a half-decent combat ship, without amping up interdictions (e.g. more NPC wing interdictions).

I'm just too used to playing combat flight sims with mobile "extra weapons racks" in tow. :D
 
Hmm... How about we set up a rule list to see what others think?

I'll start!

  • 1 NPC Wingman per CMDR.
  • Can be mixed with NPC crew.
  • Can NOT be mixed with CMDR wings.
  • Can NOT be mixed with Multicrew.
  • Wingmen Have Ethical Codes and could have Major Faction/PowerPlay loyalties. Pirate Wingmen are rare, and always Wanted, and will attract NPC bounty hunters and security. Clean Wingmen are common, but won't attack clean ships, will KWS in anarchy, no bounties found, no kill.
  • Wingman are lost on ship destruction, but will attempt to flee if heavily damaged.
  • CMDR probably needs to pay *something* when wingman dies. Otherwise you'd kill them at the end of their shift to avoid paying them. Lol
  • NPC Wingmen come with a ship, not one of yours. More money they earn, the better they, and their ship becomes.

Thoughts?

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead
 
Hello Commander Lobstris!

Fundamentally, if we simply allowed NPC wingmen without restraint, it might very well make the situation worse *and* make having wingmen more mandatory, which is not something we really want.

I'm not saying we've dropped the idea, just that it has a lot of ramifications that we don't want to take lightly.

Speaking about balance... PVP is Poker. When you have a pair and see the opposite throwing in an Anaconda with a FDL wingman, you fold. This is how it's like today, and that's how it will be with NPC wingmans added on top. You can fight if you think your hand suited, or your fold and high-wake.
 
I think some are missing the point of what Sandro's saying. The biggest concern is that EVERYBODY flies in a wing, (i.e. it becomes the "meta"), or flying in a wing becomes the only way to survive period.

My point is, we've had exactly that unbalanced situation since wings was introduced, made worse by allowing stacking of boosters and SCBs, that then made even worse by engineers, and also by 'extra-pip' multi-crew ships. IMHO everything is stacked against the solo-in-open player already.

Crime and punishment changes and further differentiation between security in core vs. fringe worlds may mitigate against this - e.g. Do I need to go to the expense of hiring wingmen, if I know a competent system authority has my back? Should wingmen have 'personality' - e.g. reputable types won't sign on to support players with low karma?

I agree it's 'not a small balancing act', but TBH, I'd imagine I'm not alone in expecting hiring NPC wingmen to have arrived long before something like PowerPlay or CQC was considered? But anyway... we are where we are. :)

PS. Sandro. NPC crew. I don't want to beg, because that would be embarrassing for all conce... Aww Heck, I'll beg... Please? Pleeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaasse? Pretty Please? :)
 
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