NPC Wingmen (Sandro)

Decision? Don't you mean Discussion?

Not to take anything away from those passionate posters who take the time to fill these threads with lists of great ideas, but it's disheartening to read so many of those lists, and the "Great idea!" replies that follow them, only to note that many of them are the same ideas that FD designers and equally passionate posters already hashed out in the DDF literally years ago.

I realise the nature of the game has changed much since then, but I'm left with the distinct impression that future changes to the game are going to be geared towards what can be shoehorned into what we already have with minimum disruption rather than, as I feel it should be, steering the game more towards the original vision and weathering the consequences of those disruptions.

But yeah, I know, 84er, out of touch, forumdad yadda yadda.

I just wish I hadn't wasted so much effort with the DDF, had I known how little of it was going to mean anything down the line.

Yes, I hear you.

I was a beta backer so never got involved with the DDF (I watched and read with great interest though) but for the original players it was a huge letdown when FDev abandoned the DDF and that original vision. What we then got was Powerplay, CQC and other things that were never part of that vision and were released half baked and without proper mechanics or support with much of the core gameplay idling in a semi developed state.

Still, the announcement of 3.0 and a return to the core mechanics has given me some hope that FDev will realise some of the ideas originally tabled for ED...including NPC wingmates.
 
That is fine with me, in fact in an earlier post I mention limiting the NPC wings to exactly this, one mission, escorting you to a single destination or for a single engagement. I've no issue with that and it solves the problem of balance and P2P session status as your NPC crew are strictly temporary. You then won't have a player flying permanently around with a full NPC wing and won't have to worry about their status when you log back in.

I would also like the option to be hired by an NPC to escort their ship or form part of their NPC wing to achieve a given task, once completed you pick up your fee and the wing is disbanded.

I fail to see why this is such a stumbling block for FDev.

Even in the case you mention, 'to a single destination' exceeds the temporal scope of a single P2P session. By that I don't mean a gaming session, but a single location at a single time on a single server, made up of one or more connected ED game clients online. To a single destination, reachable via a single hyperjump implies 1) origin station environs, 2) destination supercruise session, 3) destination station environs, so that's 3 P2P sessions. Once you're dealing with more than one, you have mostly solved replication for any number of sessions.

I can only guess why object persistence is so tricky for FD. My main guess is that the only variable entity that was designed to be persistent in the beginning was each player's ship, and over time other things have been made persistent (NPC hunters, mission entities) and adding to those is a faff. Judging by the arbitrary attributes (things like Heat Sink ammo) that have been reset to default values on session change in past bugs, it would seem that they have to manually assess what attributes to persist, and anything else gets set back to the default for that ship/object type on entering a new P2P session.
 
Haven't had time to read the whole thread so apologies if this is duplicative. A few months ago I suggested that when your NPC crew person gets to elite (or indeed whenever you dismiss then) it would be great if:

- you could help them spend all the money they earned with you on buying and equipping their own ship, and

- you could then wing up with them if you wanted.
 
Presumably unless there's a large cost to having an NPC wingmate, then SLF fighters are pretty pointless. (Well unless you like flying small fighters, I guess).
 
There's a whole host of questions that also need an answer too, and some of those answers require long term bugs being fixed.

Like docking and undocking.
How would you order your Wingmen to dock? NPC docking is unreliable at best. So actually being present when your wingman docks is actually lethal to him. It would be safer to order them to dock when you are not present at the station.
If docked together, would you be comfortable ordering your wingman to undock and potentially get stuck and shot down..?
Solution is, FD make NPC docking 100% reliable. But that's even more work...
 
Presumably unless there's a large cost to having an NPC wingmate, then SLF fighters are pretty pointless. (Well unless you like flying small fighters, I guess).

The bigger difference is that you won't be stuck with SLF-capable ships, nor having to equip a fighter bay.
 
Even in the case you mention, 'to a single destination' exceeds the temporal scope of a single P2P session. By that I don't mean a gaming session, but a single location at a single time on a single server, made up of one or more connected ED game clients online. To a single destination, reachable via a single hyperjump implies 1) origin station environs, 2) destination supercruise session, 3) destination station environs, so that's 3 P2P sessions. Once you're dealing with more than one, you have mostly solved replication for any number of sessions.

I can only guess why object persistence is so tricky for FD. My main guess is that the only variable entity that was designed to be persistent in the beginning was each player's ship, and over time other things have been made persistent (NPC hunters, mission entities) and adding to those is a faff. Judging by the arbitrary attributes (things like Heat Sink ammo) that have been reset to default values on session change in past bugs, it would seem that they have to manually assess what attributes to persist, and anything else gets set back to the default for that ship/object type on entering a new P2P session.

Erm...ok

Pretty sure I got all that, so don't have them escort you to a destination, just have them present for a single mission, start small and scale it up as they solve the persistence issues.
 
Even if NPC wingmen were nothing more than some helpful NPCs in more interesting combat scenarios/missions to start with?

eg: Undertake a mission to protect a ship being repaired, while under attack from hostiles... and when you arrive there's 2 (friendly) NPC Vipers there who you can then give simple commands to (attack this, defend that).

Even this would be a start!
 
Like docking and undocking.
How would you order your Wingmen to dock?
The same way SLF are ordered to dock.

An NPC as wingmate does not invalidate SLF. It lets a transport carry all cargo instead of an SLF hangar and make a trip more profitable. SLF are still a (cheaper) option.

I get Sandros concern for balance. Two Federal Corvettes side-by-side would be formidable. If you limit NPC wingmen to just single seat craft, you end up with:

Diamondback Explorer
Diamondback Scout
Dolphin
Eagle
Hauler
Imperial Courier
Imperial Eagle
Keelback
Sidewinder
Type-6 Transporter
Type-7 Transporter
Viper Mk III
Viper Mk IV

Of which, half wouldn't be used frequently. Brings up another wrinkle. Can the escort ships carry cargo as well? Would make CG's more interesting.
 
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Stuff gets harder for FDEV to implement in Elite when it leaves the temporal scope of a single P2P session, because state has to be preserved between that session and the next one(s). We've seen it before in Wings, Horizons, Guardians and Multicrew. Think of SRVs being magically repaired, MC turret weapons being rearmed, Wings seeing the wrong state of wingmen, etc. The current NPC SLF implementation doesn't have to deal with that, because it is forcibly limited to a single P2P session. Once you have persistent independent wingmen to deal with, you have a bunch of new state to keep replicated properly, as well as needing supercruise AI for followers, rules to determine what happens when they are immobilised and the leader player flies 10km away, AI wing behaviour around stations and docking and matchmaking questions (since NPC ships count towards the bandwidth imposed limit of ships per session).

So I would almost put money on it that FD will limit the initial temporal scope of it to a single instance, by making them Wingmen As A Service, who you call in for a single engagement, they hyperspace in, fight, take their pay and leave.

Sure, even if i'd consider it a core enhancement feature, and i realy like to see it someday, it's not easy task to implement it in a solid way, a lot of work would be needed (even a lot of interface to handle hired pilots and their ships), so even if they agree to do that, i wouldn't expect it anytime soon, even if they keep rules simple.
 
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FD, if you're reading, any chance of a dev livestream (or Q&A thread, if this is too niche) about the replication and persistence systems in the game? Can we tempt Howard onto camera? Some of us get all gooey talking about distributed systems stuff.
 
I just want a crew to look at Sandro. I hate empty seats in my ship, but do not want to open up to multicrew...

This has probably been stated already in the multiple pages since the start of the thread, but all I really care about is being able to look over my shoulder and see my bridge on my Vette being full of NPC personnel (at least in the other seats). I don't care if they start of doing nothing more than they already do (i.e. my fighter NPC speaks when she goes out on a mission or when I do) Just give me some bodies to fill the seats. I will pay them the wages of the NPC crew just to sit on my bridge and look pretty, I just feel very alone on that bridge. I have even started using a few of the third party NPC readers for NPC contacts in game and the non NPC traffic simulation on the G19 plugin by Magicmau to help alleviate it. Hell I even went back to open for the occasional "yo" or "o7" to and from my fellow commanders, but it is still so barren on that bridge. So I am begging Sandro, please. I will buy you a pint of your favorite if you can make this happen for us. Anything else is a bonus.
Thanks in advance... [yesnod]
 
Everyone can afford hiring wingmen. So there is your balance. Just keep wingmen as smaller fighter sized ships. Cobra as the largest. The larger ships you can only hire 1 - because they require 4 crew etc.

All you need to take into account is the cost of hire, the reward percentage, term of their contract, and whether or not they have their own insurance in case they die.
 
I very much want to see NPC wingmen. With regard to balance the first shift was the introduction of Wings of players only. NPC wings would only help shift that back to a lone wolf player, and like others have mentioned, don't allow mixed NPC & Player wingmen. With regard to things like instancing in supercruise, they don't really need to be there anyway, they could be tied to your ship, and appear with you when you drop from supercruise. Granted it would be better to have them in supercruise but if it's not doable, to me it's not a really big deal, as long as it just shows that you're in a wing when you are targeted (it already happens like this with NPC's quite a bit anyway).

I think the better option is to use crew with OUR ships, that way the risk is greater, as we are the ones who pay should the ship be destroyed, if they had their own ships already there is very little risk. If that risk doesn't seem high enough, there could be things like NPC's aren't covered by insurance, so there is an excess amounting +x% of the ship value to be able to re-buy the ship (and it could also be supplied at the last docked station so you now have to either go back or transfer the ship). This could end up being very costly if you're wing is decimated along with yourself depending on what ships you let them fly but it also enables an element of control via decisions as opposed to hire NPC with ship already determined via RNG and risk is whatever cost it was because if they die, they die so what, it was just some stock ship and generic single use NPC anyway. Also a side thought, if it was hired crew, and they do get the ship destroyed, unlike if they were regular crew, they would have an escape pod, but you'd better scoop it up before you leave if you want them to survive.

NPC wings also allows for more challenging scenarios, FD could scale some encounters based on numbers in the wing, so it could actually be safer to be alone sometimes than in a wing. Police might take longer to arrive if you're in a wing and are attacked, and like others have said they might just not be willing to attack other clean players, and naturally you would be responsible for any bounties & fines they accrue while under your employ, and they accrue them the same as you do, hence a single 400 assault becomes 800 (but still split so time is same as 400), which upon death, are contractually passed on to you (with relevant time increases based on new amount). Should you have an NPC wingman and you accrue a Pilot Federation bounty (assuming they become a thing and are only awarded for clean player destruction) then the wingman might simply desert you (with your ship, as ransom till you pay there fines so they are clean again, or perhaps with your ship as payment) until that time in a non-consensual PvP, they could hang around not firing but still be able to launch limpets (hatch breakers, collecters), scoop cargo do scans etc. Meaning they would be liability in a non-consensual PvP encounter where you are the instigator and your goal is to destroy and not rob someone. Attacking clean NPC's could be different as there wouldn't be a risk of getting a Pilot Federation bounty so they could attack (again if PF Bounties become a thing but I'm simply saying it this way to illustrate that NPC's aren't meant to be used for non-consensual PvP fighting, but could be used as support for pirating, and used for defending against wanted commanders).

If it was consensual PvP, they couldn't be used with this rule-set but why would consensual PvPr's even want to use them ? (it could be tweaked to give them god-like knowing abilities of if report crimes is on or off, or that setting could be made known to players avoiding the god-like knowing powers part, but it could be done if there was actually a demand for it). But in essences they won't fire weapons if they risk reducing their employers proposed "karma", which should always be on a Player not on an NPC).

If a system like this is used I don't think NPC wingmen would really need to be limited to certain ships, as they theoretically couldn't be used as offensive firepower in a PvP encounter, only as defensive firepower. PvP oriented players would just have to use Player wings instead like they already have been and do (but I'm sure some will still think it's suddenly more unfair somehow). I think the biggest issue with NPC wings with the current set up is the orders aspect, and it already exists with SLF's i.e. can't get them to do scans, launch limpets, that kind of thing, but nothing that couldn't be fixed.
 
This is another "must be" in Elite but..........Eh Devs are you there?

This.

I can not believe that it is not on the roadmap because of balancing concerns. Why should it cause more "unbalance" than the coop-wing feature?

And what about engineers and balancing ? [haha]

Or is it maybe not on the agenda because it would cause more balance? ;)


ps: sad that is doesn't seem to be one of the core feature improvements which were announced...
 
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So much good stuff, and so many positive things in this thread. Let's make Elite: Dangerous great again! :)
(Not that it wasn't great to start with... but, y'know. :D )
 
I have to say, although I don't have an issue with NPC Crewmen per se, I just don't get it. What advantage would you get from an NPC sitting next to you, when you can control any ship as an individual? Unless there is an expectation that including NPC crew members would increase your in-game abilities, or power. I can't get behind automating ship functions via crew, especially an Auto-Pilot. It would be the worst thing possible to create an NPC that can distribute my pips, or use my weapons as in Multi-crew.
 
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