NPC Wingmen (Sandro)

[Lobstris]

I have to say, although I don't have an issue with NPC Crewmen per se, I just don't get it. What advantage would you get from an NPC sitting next to you, when you can control any ship as an individual? Unless there is an expectation that including NPC crew members would increase your in-game abilities, or power. I can't get behind automating ship functions via crew, especially an Auto-Pilot. It would be the worst thing possible to create an NPC that can distribute my pips, or use my weapons as in Multi-crew.

Whilst I'm an advocate of an NPC system with static buffs (and maluses) to ship systems, based on crew skills and personality, rather than having them act as autopilot, or actively controlling pips or whatever. I think even such a 'simple' system would help flesh out the single-player game. That said, I think it's on a deeper, psychological level that NPC crew work for me - and sorry, I'm going to invoke the dreaded 'I' word... <drum roll> IMMERSION!

The big ships just feel 'wrong' and empty at present. I've grown up with Elite lore going on about navigators, gunners, co-pilots etc. in pretty much anything bigger than, and including, the Cobra. I've grown up with the buying a big ship in FFE or Frontier, then having to find and interview another 5 (or whatever) able bodies via the bulletin board, before I could fly the thing. Even if I couldn't see them, and they didn't impact on gameplay (once in place, they killed gameplay stone dead if the bulletin board didn't generate any crew adverts for that day), it felt like an added layer of depth to the ships.

And now, of course, we have the possibility for 3D proc. gen. avatars, to again help with the 'I-word'. I just want to look over my shoulder in the 'Conda, see others, and have the feeling that I'm in command of a big(ish) hunk of metal. Yeah - there'd be issues, even with purely cosmetic NPC crew, e.g. what happens to them for multicrew? Do NPC crewed ships simply not get the option for MC? How are crew deaths and survivability handled? etc. But I think these could be thrashed out.

 

[NeilF]

Hello Commanders!

This is something we still haven't reached a decision on.

The idea of NPC wingmen is totally cool, but there are some interesting issues, mainly revolving around balance. What we'd prefer to avoid is a wingman being a "no-brainer" in terms of effectiveness.

Which is why maybe just "bigger missions" with NPC wingmen already there to help you might be a nice first step?

eg: You undertake a mission to protect a ship being repaired for X minutes from pirates. On arrival there's a pair of security Vipers to help you, which you can give basic commands to (attack this, defend that).

 

[Jack Schitt]

I'm not sure I like the idea of NPCs flying our other ships. The problem, as with a great many other game aspects, will be in the balancing. Make it too cost-effective and everyone who wants to be competitive in NPC-wing-based PVP, or godlike in PVE, will feel pressured into having at least three massively engineered combat ships for their NPC wingmen. Make it too cost-prohibitive and nobody will risk it, or everyone will use cheap disposable ships that risk being easy pickings for a player-controlled wing leader or an annoyance in PVE.

I would keep things simple, as per the original DDF proposal. Until the introduction of NPC crew, all pilots whether CMDRs or NPCs were either owner-operators flying their own ship, or authority characters flying their faction's police ships or their navy's patrol craft. It should be the same for any NPC wingmen IMO; you hire the pilot and the ship, and it's the potency of both together that dictates cost, how reliably they'll perform in combat, how likely they are to willingly follow your orders or to stab you in the back etc.

Of course I also think this is all academic now, for reasons I mentioned above, and that if we end up with NPC wingmen at all it's more likely to be a tweaking of existing mechanics than a new system even remotely close to the DDF proposals, or indeed anything discussed in this thread. If we get anything at all I think it's more likely we'll pay for "wingmen" who will remain otherwise invisible and only spawn on our positions when we're attacked or interdicted, and will then behave in the same way as authority ships in a USS or allied craft in a CZ. No orders, no comms, just a re-purposing of existing code with a couple more options on the Station Services UI.

 

[Rankaze]

Can we have our AI crew sit in spare seats on our bridge please? They don't even need to do anything. Just sit there. Anythings better than an empty chair.

If that seat is needed for MC, then the NPC can just magically disappear when another player connects... Holograms 'n wotnot.

Yes, please. As noted, I'd rather have an NPC who sits in the cockpit and has no game impact than one who is useful but invisible.

In fact, I'd be willing to pay for that, if I got to customize the NPC myself (and they wouldn't die). I'd love to be able to have my second Commander riding shotgun with my first, even if it's only a cosmetic thing.

 

[Lobstris]

Of course I also think this is all academic now, for reasons I mentioned above, and that if we end up with NPC wingmen at all it's more likely to be a tweaking of existing mechanics than a new system even remotely close to the DDF proposals, or indeed anything discussed in this thread. If we get anything at all I think it's more likely we'll pay for "wingmen" who will remain otherwise invisible and only spawn on our positions when we're attacked or interdicted, and will then behave in the same way as authority ships in a USS or allied craft in a CZ. No orders, no comms, just a re-purposing of existing code with a couple more options on the Station Services UI.

That would be a sad state of affairs - to just have 'wingmen' that spawn at your location whenever you drop into an instance, rather than being actual ships that escort you in super-cruise, and respond to orders as per the already existent fighter commands (which are pretty equivalent to the simple command set discussed in the DDF). I could see an argument for having your wingmen peeling off and going 'elsewhere' once you reach a station. And I'd be happy for wingmen to be hired on a 'per run'/'short-term' basis, and have them form up on you outside of the station airspace, rather than constantly 'retained' in an instance, or requiring them to dock.

Also, how about making use of make use of NPC comms. to local space? Remember Frontier or FFE? What about the old, risky 'distress beacon' approach to potentially summon some NPC allies (or adversaries) to an instance?

 

[Leo Sagan]

I do not understand why FD keeps digging and refuses to give this space sim some half-decent NPCs ...

Honestly, what's wrong with you people ? No hostiles SRVs, no npc wings, no npc multicrew ? Really !?

NPCs existed in video games from almost the very beginning for .... a good reason you know. All you have to justify this terrible choice is a so-called "unbalance" ? Are you for real ?

Like players wings are "balanced" ? Like multi-crew is "balanced" ? Like the whole E : D game is "balanced" for that matter ?
This is beyond ridiculous TBH, this is pure game design sabotage, plain and simple.

While I admit that FD made some improvements lately story-wise, this anti-NPC obsession is totally getting old : FD wake up, open your eyes dammit, NPC programming is YOUR JOB.

SJA, please come back, they went crazy *sigh*

 

[Jack Schitt]

Also, how about making use of make use of NPC comms. to local space? Remember Frontier or FFE? What about the old, risky 'distress beacon' approach to potentially summon some NPC allies (or adversaries) to an instance?

I don't know... maybe I've just got my grumpy head on today but it always bothered me that some sort of menu-based NPC comms system wasn't baked into the game from day one. I know things were rushed once the launch date was announced, but this just seemed like such an obvious thing to have in the game. And the longer development has progressed without it making an appearance, the more concerned I've been.

Nearly all GA and military flight simulators, and many space sims, had such systems years ago. In ED such a system would have laid the foundations for any or all of the following down the road:

• Communication with NPC wingmen.
• Communication with NPC pirates.
• In-flight communication with NPC mission givers (to be fair the e-mail system handles this to some degree, but it's clunky).
• Through localisation, communication with human pilots who don't share a common language.
• Piracy declaration and communication with NPC or PC victims (see above).
• More nuanced communication with traffic controllers or Engineer bases.
• Communication with aliens?

It wouldn't even have mattered if most of these never saw the light of day; at least we'd have had a framework for possible future features, and an interface with which players would already be familiar if and when these features came.

Instead what we got was the ability to request docking through one menu, and eventually to issue orders to NPC crew through an unrelated menu in a completely different part of the UI. What a mess.

 

[Farmboy]

We already have NPC wingmen, but they can only fly our SLF, so I think a model for them already exists. In this case we pay them a percentage, and we pay for their ships when they are destroyed (ok a SLF doesn't cost much but nevertheless).

Scaling this up to allow NPC crew to fly bigger ships ought not to be impossible. There could be a couple of models for costing - you could hire them with a ship (which would cost a ship rebuy plus a hiring fee initially, and then a percentage), or you could provide your NPC crew with one of your spare ships, with the rebuy on that being taken and held in escrow until needed or ship returned to shipyard (and again paying them their percentage).

Some potential downsides for flying in a wing - firstly, and stealth based missions are going to be seriously harder. Your signal footprint to get interdicted (i.e. spawn rate of interdicting NPCs) is going to go way up. And I suspect your NPC crew is going to be less competent at evading interdictions than a player would be, so probably you have to drop in a wing beacons to bail them out, or suffer a risk of having to pay their ship rebuy - so even passenger missions and cargo missions might be more lively than doing them solo. Indeed some missions might not be accessible to players in any sort of wing, if the passenger is secretive, or the cargo is being smuggled. (this possibly should apply to SLF NPC crew too in some cases, if implemented). There may be other downsides to a big wing which other can think of which ought to make it a more nuanced choice rather than a default action.

The flip side is that a greater range of mission strengths can be generated and be accessible not just by solo ships with serious engineering, but also buy a solo player with some NPC wingmates. I see potential here.

 

[Lobstris]

Nearly all GA and military flight simulators, and many space sims, had such systems years ago.

<Looks at ARMA, Falcon 4, Janes-F15, F/A18, DCS, EE:AH/CH on the shelf> Yep. Unfortunately I don't believe I can rep you again so soon. To this day I'll never understand why requesting docking requires looking at a side panel, rather than being a single keypress, or at most, one layer into a context menu (press '4' for space traffic control channel, then '1' to request a landing pad).

 

[LKx]

you hire the pilot and the ship, and it's the potency of both together that dictates cost, how reliably they'll perform in combat, how likely they are to willingly follow your orders or to stab you in the back etc.

I agree, they either are bought with their ship, or we buy a preset NPC ship for them, it would be overcomplicated to make them flight our ships, probably AI wouldn't know what to do with them anyway.
Keep it simple and efficient.

 

[Saxon Kili]

Hey Sandro,

Will I ever be able to put one of my spare NPC pilots into one of my spare ships? Not asking for an ETA or guarantee, just a yeah or nay to the concept. It's a QoL thing I'd like to see.

I'd love to put my NPC pilot into my Vulture to cover my butt in the T-9 when trading. I'd like to have a couple of NPC piloted Viper MK III's helping me with base assaults, or cargo recovery. The enemy is dropping into the USS in a Wing to stop me. Why can't I form my own for protection?

I love SLF's, but they do have limits. I have ships in storage doing nothing. If I can cover the rebuy, why not use them.

Cheers mate and keep up the good work.

Your friendly neighbourhood shadragon.

Yes! Would be nice to have NPC wingmen and some specific wing mission content. Attack, defend, trade, explore. Some AI that talks to you.

 

[wstephenson]

• Piracy declaration and communication with NPC or PC victims (see above).
• More nuanced communication with traffic controllers or Engineer bases.

I know this is pretty far from where ED is now, but I'd dream of having something like the Versu engine behind NPC AIs and driving interactions with them. This would allow for multiple choice dialogue, as well as nuanced NPC reactions based on non-verbal communication. ("Deploy hardpoints - are you threatening me?"). NPC role archetypes could be modified by major faction and minor faction type, and some random wrinkles. I went as far as to contact Emily Short directly about it, in the hope that I could hack together a proof of concept transform an Edwardian dinner party simulation into a scenario three System Authority Vessels, one Commander and a cluster of hot contraband floating in space, and see what outcomes would arise. However the IP still resides with Linden Labs, and they EOL'ed it, and I didn't pursue it further.

 

[Commander_Brucitor]

Totally agree, it would be nice to see them sitting there or at least have the option. However I'm sure that would create issues with multicrew, and probably helps frontier avoid other technical issues. But yeah that's on my wish list lol.

 

[Commander_Brucitor]

I agree with the commentator and most everyone on here. AI wing man would be a blast and more effective than SLF ... Well hopefully lol. What might help with balance issues are only allowing them under certain conditions. For example certain mission types , community goals, etc. Then put restrictions on them for example they will leave you or attack you if you commit a crime. That would actually work against you if a player were to manipulate them to help them attack other players. Having some assistance while hauling in open for a community goal would be immensely reassuring as 9/10 times I am pulled out of super cruise and turned into space dust. I think there are even more situations here that could be useful however I understand why FD wouldn't want to everyone to use them as a bit of a crutch. But there is alot that can be gained by using them. And alot of new game play mechanics that make the trade off worth the risk of implementing them.

 

[Doolittle]

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1461411552/elite-dangerous

Somewhere in one of those vids Braben like Murray is telling us all the cool stuff that will not be there but will be. Still waiting. NPC encounters on foot I believe was one of them. So there was no question that they would make it in game. Something dramatically happened to cancel all the stuff Braben said would be but isn't in game.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

With some of the faces I've seen, I'd rather not.

I hire the pretty ones, until they can own their own Sidewinder.

+1

The fun gameplay possibilities that lone wolf players, traders, miners, and explorers can gain by hiring wingmen to run escort, patrol, and exploration related tasks surely outweigh the combat balance issues in a game where combat balance died forever when engineers were added.

Duly +1'd

How about linking it to the karma system? If you have a poor rating, no NPC wing men for you.

Duly +1'd

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Or just really untrustworthy, back-stabby wingmen.

Drat! Out of rep to give.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

I do not understand why FD keeps digging and refuses to give this space sim some half-decent NPCs ...

Honestly, what's wrong with you people ? No hostiles SRVs, no npc wings, no npc multicrew ? Really !?

NPCs existed in video games from almost the very beginning for .... a good reason you know. All you have to justify this terrible choice is a so-called "unbalance" ? Are you for real ?

Like players wings are "balanced" ? Like multi-crew is "balanced" ? Like the whole E : D game is "balanced" for that matter ?
This is beyond ridiculous TBH, this is pure game design sabotage, plain and simple.

While I admit that FD made some improvements lately story-wise, this anti-NPC obsession is totally getting old : FD wake up, open your eyes dammit, NPC programming is YOUR JOB.

SJA, please come back, they went crazy *sigh*

Leo, the balance they are looking for is on the *financial* balance sheet. They want you to buy extra slots.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1461411552/elite-dangerous

Somewhere in one of those vids Braben like Murray is telling us all the cool stuff that will not be there but will be. Still waiting. NPC encounters on foot I believe was one of them. So there was no question that they would make it in game. Something dramatically happened to cancel all the stuff Braben said would be but isn't in game.

Money. Consoles.

 

[VR Mr Teatime]

<Looks at ARMA, Falcon 4, Janes-F15, F/A18, DCS, EE:AH/CH on the shelf> Yep. Unfortunately I don't believe I can rep you again so soon. To this day I'll never understand why requesting docking requires looking at a side panel, rather than being a single keypress, or at most, one layer into a context menu (press '4' for space traffic control channel, then '1' to request a landing pad).

Its probably worth pointing out and some people here with Virtual Squadron avatars should also know better, it took over 12 years to develop a stable functioning version of AI wingmen operating in Falcon4's dynamic campaign environment. So its not the triviality people think it is.

 

[BlackSpaceCowboy]

I do not understand why FD keeps digging and refuses to give this space sim some half-decent NPCs ...

Honestly, what's wrong with you people ? No hostiles SRVs, no npc wings, no npc multicrew ? Really !?

NPCs existed in video games from almost the very beginning for .... a good reason you know. All you have to justify this terrible choice is a so-called "unbalance" ? Are you for real ?

Like players wings are "balanced" ? Like multi-crew is "balanced" ? Like the whole E : D game is "balanced" for that matter ?
This is beyond ridiculous TBH, this is pure game design sabotage, plain and simple.

While I admit that FD made some improvements lately story-wise, this anti-NPC obsession is totally getting old : FD wake up, open your eyes dammit, NPC programming is YOUR JOB.

SJA, please come back, they went crazy *sigh*

I think you're confused. It's still 1985. There is very little AI or NPC interaction.

I feel your frustration. Currently, there is no balance in PvP due to engineers and in solo there is no challenge/danger just grind. AI wingmen, hostile NPC SRVs, missions with wingmen, etc could save this game. It would add more content.

I would argue NPC wingmen would balance the game. We have a lot of traders who complain when the AI pirates become to aggressive so the game right now is totally nerfed. But if they could hire NPC wingmen, they wouldn't be so upset about strong AI pirates.

NPC wingmen would allow weaker players to balance the game out by hiring support. Stronger players wouldn't need the help and could save money.