I have been told there are many whiners on here, so I'm going to join them

[Jack Schitt]

What is your combat rating? AFAIK NPC spawns, at least when only one player is present, are "bracketed" around the player's own combat rating. So if you're Expert, you'll generally only see NPCs in the range Competent to Master, unless you have a higher rating in trade or exploration then the upper limit goes up one rating to Dangerous. So depending on your rating you may not be seeing the full range of AI tactics in the NPCs the game spawns for you.

Having said that, the "full range" isn't particularly wide either. Higher ratings are better at power management and the use of defensive hardware, but they still tend to favour face-tanking and reverse flight. In my experience (combat rating Expert) the medium-to-large ships from FAS through to Anacondas offer the largest range of flight tactics depending on their weapons loadout, from reverse face-tanking to extreme close-range circle strafing and even bugging out when their hull gets too low (I have lost many a bounty because a FAS or Python has boosted away and high waked when I didn't have enough pips in ENG to catch them). The smaller ships are mostly too gung-ho, wading straight into a barrage of fire then only peeling away when it's too late.

The other issue I have with the AI is that they rarely attack in tight wings i.e. close together and from the same direction. Instead most fights end up with one enemy ship in front of the player and his wingmates behind, registering only as hits and flashing scanner stalks. This is tactically sound, but it makes for dull gameplay especially in a well-shielded and manoeuvrable ship where the off-screen NPCs are little more than an annoyance. You just end up picking them off one at a time, rather than having to prioritise three or four targets coming from the same direction and closing the distance to split them up. But maybe that's just me.

One thing I have noticed, although I don't PVP myself, is that most apex PVP videos seem to consist of face-tanking with the occasional boom-and-zoom. In that regard the NPCs do seem to be adopting broadly the same tactics as players, but most of them don't have the hardware or tactics to extend the fight.

 

[UnhappyDev]

This reminds me of Ai in racing Sims, some games they are on rails and never make mistakes, some try to emualte human behaviour and the Ai drives erratically...and most racing sims let you adjust the Ai difficulty. God knows how FD are going to balance the Ai on a single setting to keep everyone happy (they can't it's impossible).

Well I don't think it's impossible. There kind of is a choose-able difficulty level for combat in ED ranging from Nav beacons (easiest) to CZs (hardest).

The problem for me is that it's not difficult to engineer a ship to a level that will outclass any NPC in the game - because NPCs are at best lightly modded.

 

[Jukelo]

What is your combat rating? AFAIK NPC spawns, at least when only one player is present, are "bracketed" around the player's own combat rating. So if you're Expert, you'll generally only see NPCs in the range Competent to Master, unless you have a higher rating in trade or exploration then the upper limit goes up one rating to Dangerous. So depending on your rating you may not be seeing the full range of AI tactics in the NPCs the game spawns for you.

There's a few NPCs that level with the player, namely the "The rumor was true!" pirates and "I've come a long way for your bounty" hunters, basically the NPCs the game has a chantce to spawn specifically for you after every jump to hyperspace or supercruise to add challenge to your game. All the others, NPCs just going about their business in supercruise, NPCs spawning in RES, CZ and USS, do not and simply have random ranks. However your rank will affect the behaviour of these NPCs towards you.

 

[timbero]

I have been told there are many whiners on here, so I'm going to join them

[video=youtube;WWaLxFIVX1s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWaLxFIVX1s[/video]

 

[NW3]

The problem for me is that it's not difficult to engineer a ship to a level that will outclass any NPC in the game - because NPCs are at best lightly modded.

When engineering was first available, some NPCs were heavily modded. Of course there was an outcry, so they were nerfed.

 

[Jack Schitt]

There's a few NPCs that level with the player, namely the "The rumor was true!" pirates and "I've come a long way for your bounty" hunters, basically the NPCs the game has a chantce to spawn specifically for you after every jump to hyperspace or supercruise to add challenge to your game. All the others, NPCs just going about their business in supercruise, NPCs spawning in RES, CZ and USS, do not and simply have random ranks. However your rank will affect the behaviour of these NPCs towards you.

Thanks for that clarification. I've often wondered how the game's bracketing system copes with inherently multiplayer scenarios such as CZs, and this makes perfect sense. I don't suppose you know how this applies if you're flying in a wing with a range of CMDR ratings? Not that I ever do, I'm just curious.

 

[yodajedifishmaster]

But they did have a survival instinct - they fled to a safe distance when their shields were taken down - and there were complaints - and it was nerfed.

The problem was, you could spend a while in battle with the NPC, it would then withdraw and recharge, and you would have to do it all over again. It sometimes took an age and it didn't always end in a satisfactory win.

i would not have minded if the npc decided 'sod this im outa here' like npcs pirates do now if you have no cargo when scanned. i dont think that escape behavious should be nerfed unless you shot out their thrusters and FSD. nor necessarily if they boost out of range to get shields back before coming back for me - the onus is on US to go after them and stop the shields coming up by destroying them. or making them wake out. BUT on the other hand if they always wake out you never win and never get your combat rank rising.

 

[Xious]

Some of the NPC's do fly off and come back and others jump out successfully.

Most fight to the death but that's ok because... It's a Game.

 

[Gully Foyle]

Okay, I have a complaint about the AI. No, it's not too hard, I can handle just about any AI ship out there. And it's not- that they're too easy per se. It's just- they don't seem to have any survival instinct. So, let me run you through the scenario I keep seeing. I get up behind my target, open up on the ship, and they'll hit the boost, gain a little distance, and as I approach, they stop, flip, and open up.

Sounds good so far, but- they don't even try to get out of my sights. The rest of the battle is then me flying around the enemy, as they- basically just sit where they are rotating along with my vertical and lateral thrusters. This kind of AI behavior bugs me. I understand it, I do, I remember the time when all the AI would do is fly defensively, and it was trivial to just stay behind them, because they weren't very good at defensive flying. But while this is more challenging for a certain values of challenge, no person fights like this. This behavior only exists because the AI's ships are expendable. They don't have rebuy costs, they don't need to work to engineer their modules, they just, pop into existence out in the sky.

The AI isn't playing to beat me, the AI is playing to cause attrition, and while fighting the AI is still fun, it would be even more enjoyable if it were better.

I wish there was a slider for AI skills.

The higher you put it to the right, the more difficult they become, with corresponding rewards.

The default would be in the middle, with all the way to the left being easy with little reward for those new to combat.

o7

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Okay, I have a complaint about the AI. No, it's not too hard, I can handle just about any AI ship out there. And it's not- that they're too easy per se. It's just- they don't seem to have any survival instinct. So, let me run you through the scenario I keep seeing. I get up behind my target, open up on the ship, and they'll hit the boost, gain a little distance, and as I approach, they stop, flip, and open up.

Sounds good so far, but- they don't even try to get out of my sights. The rest of the battle is then me flying around the enemy, as they- basically just sit where they are rotating along with my vertical and lateral thrusters. This kind of AI behavior bugs me. I understand it, I do, I remember the time when all the AI would do is fly defensively, and it was trivial to just stay behind them, because they weren't very good at defensive flying. But while this is more challenging for a certain values of challenge, no person fights like this. This behavior only exists because the AI's ships are expendable. They don't have rebuy costs, they don't need to work to engineer their modules, they just, pop into existence out in the sky.

The AI isn't playing to beat me, the AI is playing to cause attrition, and while fighting the AI is still fun, it would be even more enjoyable if it were better.

It's like flying a B-17 in WW 2. They computed the number of missions you would have to fly until you died, and did an increment over it.

 

[Morbad]

The problem was, you could spend a while in battle with the NPC, it would then withdraw and recharge, and you would have to do it all over again. It sometimes took an age and it didn't always end in a satisfactory win.

This is not really a problem unless you feel that the NPC vessels are only there to be fodder.

In any rational scenario, you'd need to bring a ship that was either faster than your prey, or that could blow it out of the sky with the first volley.

That was because they did it every single time.
I'd be fine with higher level NPC's doing that a couple times, every 10th NPC or so. But not every single NPC every single time I try to kill them.

I kinda want every NPC to place it's continued survival at the top of it's priorities. Right now it's blatantly obvious they are more concerned with my financial well being than their continued existence...which is rather hard to wrap my mind around.

What we need are AIs which are tailored to a player's skill level. That may not be feasible in Open, but it ought to be doable in Solo.

Everyone plays the same game via the BGS and other means; individual difficulty levels wouldn't work.

I'm also not fond of difficulty tailoring itself to individuals. A universal increase in difficulty to cater to my personal ability or vessel would cheapen those abilities and tools, as well as be just as implausible as everything being a push over.

When NPCs were stupidly easier, we complained.
When NPCs were stupidly harder, we complained.
Now we still complain.

Because we don't have both, and the difficulty that is delivered is delivered via the wrong means.

The difficulty I foresee though is that you are effectively altering the difficulty level of the AI. So someone with it set to lobotamised npc's will rank up quicker than someone playing a much harder AI style. This would need to be rewarded in both credits and rank points...

People would also set the lower difficulty to change faction influence and undermine in powerplay. It would force everyone with any interest at all in these segments of the game to select the lowest difficulty level to compete.

You could litteraly fly for a 15 min with a one eagle. You probably don't even understand what are you asking for.

I'm asking for AI that does everything a CMDR of similar rank, who wants nothing more than to survive would do (withing the rules, of course...though an NPC scrambling for the ethernet cable or power strip would be occasionally ironic).

I expect them to run for their proverbial lives and high-wake at the drop of a hat, if they are able. Or kite me around for two hours while a swarm of police trickle in, then high-wake, if I let them.

The only way combat as a whole will ever be suitably balanced is if the limits of what's possible in the system are faced by everyone on a semi-regular basis.

Most fight to the death but that's ok because... It's a Game.

It's a game that breaks the forth wall and revels in it's gaminess a little too blatantly.

This is the game I was sold on:

https://youtu.be/EM0Gcl7iUM8?t=244

https://youtu.be/wQaK-j1n8co?t=194

Braben is/was clearly someone who valued a high degree of verisimilitude and this is what was heavily pushed early on as a major part of Frontier's vision.

 

[MrFailfactory]

Be careful what you ask for, because the results may not be what you had in mind. As an example, way back in Jump to Lightspeed, there was a fairly lengthy discussion regarding how uninspired the AI flying was. Part of that discussion turned to what was known then as "The Bumblebee Effect," which results in AI that do indeed fly much better, but are incredibly difficult to hit. It was deemed that most would find this to be less rewarding, and more frustrating, in the end. I happen to agree.

Also, even in Solo, this is not a single player game. As such, there simply cannot be a difficulty toggle on the player end. I would much prefer that Frontier set the bar(s) to match their vision, and leave it at that.

I think on the lower NPC tiers, Frontier pretty much has it right. A new Commander can get exploded by low ranking NPC's if they engage them incorrectly, and/or don't learn from mistakes, but most people should be able to defeat them fairly easily, most of the time. That said, I feel that Frontier has erred on the side of caution with the upper ranked NPC's, and this is where the adjustments need to be applied. If they make the higher-ranked NPC's more challenging, then the problem should be fixed (perhaps with a slight change in how player rank is gained at our upper levels), and the difficulty is then already baked in. You choose your level of challenge/risk with every encounter, perhaps with some random (small) surprises thrown in for spice.

Riôt

 

[Kaltern]

Not being a Combat Commander, I am ignorant in one specific area of NPC - and that's the named NPC's in missions. Are these guys any harder to defeat than your typical pirate, or just more of the same? I would like to see missions where you start of hunting the usual NPC goons, but they lead you to another mission which has you attacking another NPC.. and you might do this 3-4 times perhaps, and then finally you end up facing off against Dread Pirate Lord Ken. Who, while soloable, is much more difficult than your standard NPC fodder.

Is this already a thing, or am I just wishing a bit too much. I just think adding these 'optional bosses' would go some way to appeasing the combat commanders who crave a lot more challenge without affecting us lowly trader/scientists.

 

[insanephoton]

But they did have a survival instinct - they fled to a safe distance when their shields were taken down - and there were complaints - and it was nerfed.

The problem was, you could spend a while in battle with the NPC, it would then withdraw and recharge, and you would have to do it all over again. It sometimes took an age and it didn't always end in a satisfactory win.

I remember how tedious it was if you got interdicted while flying something relatively slow. Battles could last a long time especially as system security was less likely to drop in back then.

 

[Jack Schitt]

I kinda want every NPC to place it's continued survival at the top of it's priorities. Right now it's blatantly obvious they are more concerned with my financial well being than their continued existence...which is rather hard to wrap my mind around.

I wonder if we wouldn't have this problem had FD implemented escape pods for NPC ships. So you'd see an escape pod leaving, which would either jump away after a second or so (one of the DDF suggestions and relatively easy to implement) or remain around to be blown up, collected as salvage or collected as slaves (similar to randomly spawned USS pods, but possibly more difficult to implement).

The NPC's decision to fight to the last pip would immediately be more believable, and if the pods were collectable it would add further gameplay wrinkles.

Of course I can already imagine the whining in response to either of these if implemented, because we had preview screenings going back as far as the Kickstarter. "Why are escape pods indestructible?" "Why can't my ship have the same instant FSD?" "Why don't enemy CMDRs have to eject?" "Why can't I scoop other players and sell them as slaves?"

Maybe this is why we can't have nice believable things.

(+1 for the rest of the post, too. I agreed with pretty much every word.)​

 

[tafkabb]

Not being a Combat Commander, I am ignorant in one specific area of NPC - and that's the named NPC's in missions. Are these guys any harder to defeat than your typical pirate, or just more of the same?

The same; NPC ability is rank-based. Although mission targets tend to fly in wings though, making them harder.

 

[CMDR Dreamstate]

The only major complaint I have about the AI is their 6th sense ability to avoid any fixed weapons if they are 1KM+... Eagles of any rank are the worst offenders - they fly and act like a creature that has 360 degree field of vision and can read every input of your controls within 1ms to determine the best outcome to avoid anything you shoot them with.

 

[Cmnd Fulsom]

Well, this drew some good replies while I was asleep. I'd like to just reiterate, this is not a call for increased difficulty in the AI insomuch as I don't really think the AI needs to be harder or easier. I think the actual skill and ability of the AI is a good compromise between just after the engineers were implemented, and back when the AI would just sort of... fly around in wide circles and just let you stick behind them and blast them out of the sky. My specific complaint is that I never see enemies try to dogfight anymore. Even the constant jousting of just post 2.1 was way better because while the AI still didn't do anything to avoid your fire it was at least quite dynamic and if you were good enough you could stay behind them. It felt rewarding to fight them and keep in their blind spots.

I'm sure I'll get better at fighting the AI as time goes on, and learn more about how to keep them from just flipping in front of me. But I I would really rather fighting the AI be more varied. Even if we never get an AI that can say I am flying x ship the enemy is flying y ship, initiate protocol 2 or whatever. Even if there were just 3 distinct flight characteristics that the AI was assigned at random when it spawned in it would be an improvement.


Stay Frosty


Cmnd Fulsom

 

[Ian Skippy]

That was because they did it every single time.
I'd be fine with higher level NPC's doing that a couple times, every 10th NPC or so. But not every single NPC every single time I try to kill them.

Do you flee once every ten times your shield goes down? No? Then why should NPCs restrict themselves in such a silly way? Because its more convenient and easier?

Thats what the OP is complaining about.

I'm asking for AI that does everything a CMDR of similar rank, who wants nothing more than to survive would do (withing the rules, of course...though an NPC scrambling for the ethernet cable or power strip would be occasionally ironic).

But who would stroke my ego after grinding to elite status and a tooled-up Corvette if NPCs wouldn't mindlessly thrown themselves before my guns? Dont make my choices have consequences, please!

 

[Cmnd Fulsom]

Actually, now that you mention it, I almost never run just because my shields have gone down. I either run immediately because I don't feel like fighting, or run because my cockpit gets knocked out and I don't have time to finish the fight and make it back to a station. Generally it's not losing shields that will do it. Maybe if my hull is getting down to critical levels, or there are obviously just too many to fight. But generally I wouldn't actually find the AI continuing to fight on even after shields have dropped to be unrealistic. If only because that's more or less how I fly.

Also, this is a game, not everything actually needs to be totally true to life. I don't mind AI standing and fighting to the last breath, I don't mind the AI running away if things look bad, I don't even really mind the AI reverse face tanking me constantly. I just want to see variety in AI flight characteristics. Really, if the AI just had scripts it could randomly choose from either at the beginning of combat, or when it spawns in, maybe when it drops below a certain health threshold, with different weights based upon the ship it's in, maybe shield and hull health. That would be great. I would be amazing to get a verity of AI behaviors, from the immediate escape, to the extremely aggressive face tanking and even the passive defensive flight of yesteryear, the more different behaviors we can see, the better the game will be for it.


Stay Frosty



Cmnd Fulsom