Possible to have HARD elite NPCs at CNBs/HazRez/HighCZ/piratelords?

[Tarman]

One of the issues I have with the baddies that interdict you (pirates, bounty hunters etc) is that they are tailored (mostly) to your combat rank. I'm Combat Elite & only ever get interdicted by Elite NPCs (caveat: I have been exploring since before Christmas), and I guess you never get interdicted by Elites. You might enjoy a higher ranked opponent for the challenge without farming (as I did when ranking up), whereas I have mostly lost interest in combat & would prefer a little variety.

For the stuff that does come to the player, I'm not convinced the player's combat rank is a useful KPI, or at least not that alone.

I wonder if a 'rolling last 50 NPC kills' average rank could be used to better represent the players desire for stronger (or weaker) opponents. Use the Karma system to track their recent behaviour & model around that.

You can actually change that for me to "I never get interdicted unless I want to be". That's a whole other kettle of fish.

And yeah, the combat ranking is soooooo skewed it makes a poor marker for gauging true combat prowess to make an interesting event for any given pilot skill. What about players who are 2000+ hours on the stick, who then re-roll their CMDR? That's gotta be a really soft re-start for them going up against a wet piece of cake till they re-top their ranking.

I'm up for any type of more dynamically-reading combat evaluation on the part of the game, to throw more believable and useful encounters at the right players.

 

[Zeeman]

I get wrecked by AI in my cutter above expert. Dont know why you would want them harder

Because I take out 3 Elite anythings in my Vulture with relative ease. There is a scale of difficulty, the ranking system is it.

Now, you've discovered that anything above expert wrecks you - that won't last long. With experience, you'll have no problem taking them out, even at Elite.

However, I do understand that the current AI is too difficult for some folk. What we need is to have greater dynamic range between the Harmless and Elite AI. Ideally, Elite AI would be at the level of the Beta 4 AI from 2.0(?) .

Harmless should be as easy as the easiest Harmless AI we've ever had since Gamma (minus spit roast bug), and then the rest spread out between. Throw a 0.5% roll for lower ranks to act as 3 or 4 ranks higher, to simulate the rare naturally talented pilot, and that would result in a good spread.

We need AI to cater to all levels, but those with less combat skill should not be expecting to take out higher ranked ships, even AI. Highly skilled players should also not be expecting a challenge from lower ranked AI.

Z...

 

[WreckWren]

HAZ RES should be HAZardous. Hazardous does not mean an 100 ants, it means 2 lions. Make the AI less numerous and harder.

Also, unique boss ships would be ace. It won't happen tho, takes work.

 

[Surprised Brony]

HAZ RES should be HAZardous. Hazardous does not mean an 100 ants, it means 2 lions. Make the AI less numerous and harder.

Also, unique boss ships would be ace. It won't happen tho, takes work.

I fought a pirate in a Haz res the other day. It was an elite Anaconda with two elite Cobra Mk III escorts. I brought my Corvette with sub-G5 shields, no SCBs and a hardpoint loadout that wasn't meant for large ships. Just needed to test my thrusters. Needless to say, I won, but it was a challenge. I had only 1 ring of shields left in the end. I think having a chance for unique pirate bosses like that but geared toward G5 ships would be a good thing.

 

[ShinyDewott]

I get wrecked by AI in my cutter above expert. Dont know why you would want them harder

Did you even bother to upgrade the thing?

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

HAZ RES should be HAZardous. Hazardous does not mean an 100 ants, it means 2 lions. Make the AI less numerous and harder.

Also, unique boss ships would be ace. It won't happen tho, takes work.

I actually find fighting multiple 'good' opponents better than fighting just 1 'ace'.
Shooting at an ace still only requires you to point and click really.
Taking on wings means you need to watch your scanner more, change targets to deal with the one damaging you the most, fly more defensively, etc.

Not saying a "boss" wouldn't be cool. But bosses aren't cool if you fight one every 2 minutes, they just become the average.

 

[UnhappyDev]

I hate to say it, but Elder Scrolls Online has the right idea. There are 'world bosses' dotted about the map. These are uber-tough NPCs that are extremely difficult to solo kill, you must team up with other players to destroy them.

Agree with the OP, I wish ED had something similar e.g. a 'Pirate Lord' signal source, you can then choose to jump in and have a very tough fight. ATM we have 'threat levels' attached to signal sources but these aren't very engaging or threatening.

 

[sollisb]

I totally agree with the OP!

Even with guns I never used before I can take down Elite NPCs in FDLs, Condas and such stuff.

Bounty hunting get's dull after a while. I really hope the Thargoids will crank it up a notch.

Try doing it a non-engineered ship?

Everyone engineers their ship to have meta max shields and weapons etc and then come to the boards complaining that the AI is too easy?

I guarantee, that if FD ups the NPC ships to have equal engineering, all you internet warriors will be crying like babies.

If you want to 'crank up the notch', remove all mods and come back and tell us how easy it was?

 

[StiTch]

Op....just...run before you get clobbered by the anti-sense brigade.

Seriously though, this is an insane topic. I have many times offered that NPCs should be more extreme in their difficulty spread. Not "extreme" in that the difficulty is ramped up per se, but that there are greater difficulty increases per rank.

At present basically everything up to the top half of ranks fight like an idiot, everything from about halfway up to Dangerous fights the same, and Dangerous to Elite all fight the same. But it's not like you're stuck with any given difficulty; you can find enemies of pretty much any rank at will. Having difficult Elite AI doesn't stop you getting in a ruck if something of pretty much handpicked difficulty, depending on the label attached to it.

So if players can basically choose what they engage...why don't Elite NPCs fight like the most advanced combatants in the galaxy? Why are the Elite not Elite?

Rep will be awarded to any reasonable answer that isn't "because hard AI hurts the feelings of God Mode players in over-engineered ships that break down if they can't melt half the galaxy's criminals before lunch time". The answer isn't false, but already known

I get wrecked by AI in my cutter above expert. Dont know why you would want them harder

...you should surely fight at an "expert" level to reign victorious?

Try doing it a non-engineered ship?

Everyone engineers their ship to have meta max shields and weapons etc and then come to the boards complaining that the AI is too easy?

I guarantee, that if FD ups the NPC ships to have equal engineering, all you internet warriors will be crying like babies.

If you want to 'crank up the notch', remove all mods and come back and tell us how easy it was?

So to summarise, FD gave us full-blown warships and the ability to engineer them (which may I remind you cost us as part of the season), so we could be told that we aren't allowed to use them if we want challenge?

Fail...so much for "playing your way".

Try explaining why you're entitled to cry-baby mode Elite AI. Does it hurt your little feelings if you're shooting at an enemy that has a Competent label instead of an Elite one?

 

[Kaa Mchorror]

Try doing it a non-engineered ship?

Everyone engineers their ship to have meta max shields and weapons etc and then come to the boards complaining that the AI is too easy?

I guarantee, that if FD ups the NPC ships to have equal engineering, all you internet warriors will be crying like babies.

If you want to 'crank up the notch', remove all mods and come back and tell us how easy it was?

You are late to the party. Your bad argument was shot down on page 1 or 2.

 

[Jon flint]

If you want to 'crank up the notch', remove all mods and come back and tell us how easy it was?

Done that, still easy.

Sure I can drop down to a smaller ship, I have tried an unmodded vulture vs NPCs, and yes, that was quite fun and challenging to take down big ships.

But after all the grind to get a big (and rank locked) ship, and fully engineering it, it's a bitter pill to swallow to have to ditch it in order to have some fun.

Surely a better option is a higher level enemy in restricted areas that'll give these big powerful warships a proper workout.

 

[Dogeh]

I agreed with someone's suggestion that the AI should be more difficult in some systems.
For example, Shinrarta is supposed to be an Elite system so every NPC there should be Elite!
Anarchy systems should have the odd crazy modded ship, as long as it follows the heat rules, not like the multicannon PA bug!

 

[Stigbob]

Done that, still easy.

Sure I can drop down to a smaller ship, I have tried an unmodded vulture vs NPCs, and yes, that was quite fun and challenging to take down big ships.

But after all the grind to get a big (and rank locked) ship, and fully engineering it, it's a bitter pill to swallow to have to ditch it in order to have some fun.

Surely a better option is a higher level enemy in restricted areas that'll give these big powerful warships a proper workout.

The thing with space sandboxes is that improving your ship to the point you are effectively indestructible is the end game, it's what a lot of players regard as the win. You can downgrade for the challenge or reset or get into the BGS (some even kill noobs) but in the words of Plutarch "When Alexander saw the breadth of his domain he wept, for there were no more worlds to conquer".

I've reset twice already, if the game gets stale again then it's time.

 

[Cmdr. Numa]

I am one of those players who are most happy when they can shred NPCs with any ship.

I felt 2.1 as a thorough shock. There was no gentle learning curve, I was combat elite, and the game immediately threw the best it had at my yet unengineered ships. My Corvette and FdL held up, barely, but those were full combat spec. My trade Cutter suddenly needed to run from Elite condas. Lesser non combat ships were hopeless to even try with. Mines helped, but were truly boring. Meanwhile My Cutter is an engineered monster with 2,4k highly resistant shields, quad packhounds and triple long range high yield cannons. Fighting those same Elite Condas is a joy again.

 

[TheNavvie]

I'm far from the best pilot, probably no better than average, and I think the spread of abilities shown by NPCs is too narrow. The difference between a Harmless or Elite NPC seems to mostly be how big their bounty is. Elite ranked NPCs should be so good at combat that CMDRs like me run from an encounter after dropping whatever cargo they've demanded.

I'd also like to see Anarchy systems be genuinely dangerous - like they were in Elite 84 - systems where CMDRs like me think twice before entering or accepting missions into where you run a high chance of multiple interdictions on your way to the station, not just somewhere to go where you won't get fined for murdering Type-9s for their materials.

 

[Riverside]

I am one of those players who are most happy when they can shred NPCs with any ship.

I felt 2.1 as a thorough shock. There was no gentle learning curve, I was combat elite, and the game immediately threw the best it had at my yet unengineered ships. My Corvette and FdL held up, barely, but those were full combat spec. My trade Cutter suddenly needed to run from Elite condas. Lesser non combat ships were hopeless to even try with. Mines helped, but were truly boring. Meanwhile My Cutter is an engineered monster with 2,4k highly resistant shields, quad packhounds and triple long range high yield cannons. Fighting those same Elite Condas is a joy again.

Makes a change to read that compared to the more typical 'bring it on' bravado

I didn't play the game (pre 2.1) to feel like a badass but it felt pretty good. By the time I reached Elite I no longer expected to struggle, and for a year or so I enjoyed focusing on the rest of the game. Like many others on this thread have said, 2.1 beta4's AI was good fun I thought, but the rank based interdictions in the live release severely reduced my enjoyment of the game.

I like a challenge, I revel in planning out & achieving really massive goals (I'm triple Elite, I'm currently circumnavigating the galaxy in a Corvette), I anticipate & deal with obstacles but the 2.1 AI change was way too much in a single step, and then the insipid scaled interdictions on top spoiled my favourite parts of the game (returning to the smaller ships & activities). The solution I found was to stop using my multi-role fun ships & just go big.

I use the Corvette for just about everything now & have done for the last year or so. It's still the best game out there but it's not the game it was, and NPC interaction now just makes me cringe because before they were pretty rubbish but I could just look past that, 2.1 shoved that 'THIS IS RUBBISH' in my face.

I'll be back in the bubble in probably another 6 months or so, I'm looking forward to experiencing a much improved, and more believable AI, and hopefully a really big meaty challenge I can work on with the Thargoids.

 

[shadragon]

+1 to the idea of "Extremely hazardous" RES sites. Something to give fully G5 rated PVE Vettes a challenge.

And when their massively engineered and OP ships go BOOM all the time with 40 mil rebuys, how long do you think it will be before people complain?

 

[Stigbob]

And when their massively engineered and OP ships go BOOM all the time with 40 mil rebuys, how long do you think it will be before people complain?

As a rule of thumb people generally start complaining long before things get implemented.

 

[Vasco Sapien]

I've seen a couple posts recently asking for harder AI. I understand that there is a "serious" AI that was developed but was withdrawn due to players complaining about getting beaten...I could understand that frustration, but it seems that a middle ground has been missed.

I personally would love to experience this, even if it were only available in VERY specific circumstances unlikely to irritate most of the player base - for example elite NPCs at CNBs/HazRez/HighCZ/piratelords. Even make it REALLY fun and give them engineered weapons, and crank the rewards sky high to deal with the risk (in the millions maybe). Nobody would have to fight them unless they went looking, and it could provide an interesting challenge for those that were interested - it would require planning and strategy to take one down.

(My apologies if this idea precisely as written has been presented already - I hadn't seen it, but I don't catch every thread!)

I think there should be a new HazRez level. (Extreme).

Low - High - Hazardous - Extreme.

Extreme is full of Elite+ pilots and million credit rewards.

 

[GilliganTX]

Take cargo into a haz rez.

The quality of the NPC's won't really however it's the quantity that makes the challenge.


I made about 5 million credits in 20 minutes yesterday with one wingmate in a haz rez. I was full of engineering commodities, and the entire radar was red. Constantly fighting anywhere from 3-8 ships at once. Biggest challenge Goliad and I have faced in a while.