I thought that was Advanced Medicines.
Imperial Slavery
- Thread starter Cmnd Fulsom
- Start date
I thought that was Advanced Medicines.
Huh. I must've missed that part of the Federation's social safety net. If so, good for them. Though hopefully, they also provide training so people can aspire to more.
I've always been down on the Feds because under Hudson, the "safety net" is mandatory conscription for anyone under 40 (and above 18, I assume). Sorry, working in mines, or a someone's indentured house servant is far better than being cannon fodder.
The real problem with Imperial slavery is we don't have enough details to know how good or bad it really is, barring the abuses that are sure to happen in some places. Is it a perpetual cycle? Or do people sell themselves into slavery for a period, pay off a debt, and then go back to normal work? It could, in fact, be both. A skilled cook might suddenly run up a huge debt (e.g. aiding family) then sell himself into slavery for a fixed period to pay off the debt. After his term is up, he might go back to work where he was before. Heck, he might end up the paid servant of the family whom he served as a slave.
I have never, and will never, say Imperial slavery is good. However, it appears to be better than regular slavery (e.g. Imp. slaves have more rights, not treated as property, not permanent, etc.) and better than forced conscription.
I'm mainly pro-Empire because the Federation is so bellicose, rife with corrupt corporations, and full of super stringent laws. I'm not a fan of the Alliance because it seems like the "Wild West" crossed with a bogged down democracy.
Yep, I've said the same thing. Imp. Slaves in the commodity market just doesn't make sense.
Well, this conversation really too off. I'm at work and on my phone, so I'll only reply to a couple of the more recent replies here. First of all. The value of slaves is labor. Secondly, I have repeatedly seen imperial slavery described as a social safety net. So, here's the deal, if you have a debt you can't pay, and declare bankruptcy by selling yourself into slavery, and live in a society where the solution to poverty is to put the poor into bondage. You've just spent however many of your remaining productive years not saving any money, not networking, not putting any money into the 3300 version of a retirement fund, and presumably you liquidated your assets to help pay your debt. How does this not end in perpetual slavery?
Thirdly, I can't actually find any reference to universal conscription in the federation, but even if there is, being a conscript is way better than being a slave. Conscripts have all of their physical needs met? And they get paid, and they get a military pension. Yeah, it's dangerous work if your in a combat role. But you're probably about as likely to be in an actual combat role as an imperial slave is to be working in the mines.
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Cmnd Fulsom
Thirdly, I can't actually find any reference to universal conscription in the federation, but even if there is, being a conscript is way better than being a slave. Conscripts have all of their physical needs met? And they get paid, and they get a military pension. Yeah, it's dangerous work if your in a combat role. But you're probably about as likely to be in an actual combat role as an imperial slave is to be working in the mines.
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Cmnd Fulsom
When you're out in the deep black light years from the nearest Imperial inspectors it seems to me that they way Imperial slaves are supposed to be treated and the reality of their existence are two quite different things.
We abolished slavery in the US quite some time ago, and indentured servitude went along with it.
Kind of.
I own a home. Part of owning a home means paying property tax.
To pay property tax, I require an income.
To obtain an income, I must work.
Thus, I am an indentured servant to the things I own.
Of course, the cost of a home is no small matter either, and to pay this cost, I require a loan.
A loan must be repaid.
To repay my loan, I must work.
And lenders charge interest - thus inflating the amount I must pay.
In a manner of speaking we are all slaves to the things we own, or have the illusion of owning, as they're not really ours until the debt is paid.
And then, to top that all off, we've created a system of debt that ensures we will nearly always have debt of some kind.
It's quite the vicious circle we've made.
And it's not really all that different in most other places as well, just there are different and funny names for it.
Kind of.
I own a home. Part of owning a home means paying property tax.
To pay property tax, I require an income.
To obtain an income, I must work.
Thus, I am an indentured servant to the things I own.
Of course, the cost of a home is no small matter either, and to pay this cost, I require a loan.
A loan must be repaid.
To repay my loan, I must work.
And lenders charge interest - thus inflating the amount I must pay.
In a manner of speaking we are all slaves to the things we own, or have the illusion of owning, as they're not really ours until the debt is paid.
And then, to top that all off, we've created a system of debt that ensures we will nearly always have debt of some kind.
It's quite the vicious circle we've made.
And it's not really all that different in most other places as well, just there are different and funny names for it.
In the core worlds (100ly around Achenar) the system works - and outside that there is simply too little tradition, pride, persistent vision or simple benevolence for everything not to be utterly corrupted. Mind you being part of an empire with vital functions corroded by corruption is not quite the same thing as literally being the corruption itself.
I would observe at this point that the fact that there's an anti-iSlavery lobby at the heart of the empire, as evidenced by the smurf princess herself, would just go to show that the system doesn't work as designed anywhere any more. Perhaps it never did.
I've not looked, but how far from Achenar is the Prism system?
I've not looked, but how far from Achenar is the Prism system?
They would be in stasis. Does anyone know what happened to the smuggling missions freeing regular slaves? Seems strange for FD to remove them.
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It's a game, players make choices to run slaves or not. I don't.
Also don't smuggle drugs. Personal choice.
It's interesting that slavery in-game is neutral as to race and origin, which apparently serves as a screen against criticism. I find in-game slavery at a minimum, distasteful, however profitable it may be.
Just one CMNDR'S opinion.
Also don't smuggle drugs. Personal choice.
It's interesting that slavery in-game is neutral as to race and origin, which apparently serves as a screen against criticism. I find in-game slavery at a minimum, distasteful, however profitable it may be.
Just one CMNDR'S opinion.
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Imperial Slavery, when the law is followed, is a completely voluntary way of avoiding going into debt. The holder of your debt is expected to pay for room, board, medical expenses, and to respect your rights as an Imperial Citizen, including the right to bear arms. While it is true some unscrupulous individuals do take advantage of the system to ship Imperial Slaves out of Imperial space and into genuine slavery, this is an aberration, and is also illegal.
The employee of a Corporate State of the Federation, when the law is followed, is completely at the mercy of their employer. They have no rights beyond what their employer gives them, and is often in perpetual debt due to overpriced food, shelter, and medical debt. This is including the medical debt acquired during their birth. Their employer also employs the local police force, who have the right to use lethal force to quell any hint of a union. Some unscrupulous corporate executives even sell their employees into genuine slavery, but this is an aberration, and also illegal.
But at least the entertainment is free, and top notch.
There are many horrific institutions in the game. Unregulated slavery is at the top of the list, for obvious reasons, but when I look at the major distinctions between the Empire of Achenar and the Federation of Star Systems, Imperial Slavery for the Empire, and the Corporate State for the Federation, I find the idea of the latter to be much more horrifying.
Imperial Slavery, at least, is completely voluntary and heavily regulated. The Corporate State, on the other hand, turns a practice that should've died in the 19th century, and cranks it up to a planetary or system-wide level. It matches Elite's general dystopian themes (we're all members of a criminal cartel, after all), which is why corporate oligarchy that rules the Federation seems far more sinister to me. Which, considering how the openly corrupt the Empire is, really says something.
The employee of a Corporate State of the Federation, when the law is followed, is completely at the mercy of their employer. They have no rights beyond what their employer gives them, and is often in perpetual debt due to overpriced food, shelter, and medical debt. This is including the medical debt acquired during their birth. Their employer also employs the local police force, who have the right to use lethal force to quell any hint of a union. Some unscrupulous corporate executives even sell their employees into genuine slavery, but this is an aberration, and also illegal.
But at least the entertainment is free, and top notch.
There are many horrific institutions in the game. Unregulated slavery is at the top of the list, for obvious reasons, but when I look at the major distinctions between the Empire of Achenar and the Federation of Star Systems, Imperial Slavery for the Empire, and the Corporate State for the Federation, I find the idea of the latter to be much more horrifying.
Imperial Slavery, at least, is completely voluntary and heavily regulated. The Corporate State, on the other hand, turns a practice that should've died in the 19th century, and cranks it up to a planetary or system-wide level. It matches Elite's general dystopian themes (we're all members of a criminal cartel, after all), which is why corporate oligarchy that rules the Federation seems far more sinister to me. Which, considering how the openly corrupt the Empire is, really says something.
Okay, I just want to be totally sure I'm clear on your position. Is it your conceit that a system under which every person has a vote and is free to chose their affiliations. Is less free and open than one in which the poor have the entirely uncoerced choice between starvation in a state with no real social safety nets and an effective lifetime of actual slavery.
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Cmnd Fulsom
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Cmnd Fulsom
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And this does not even address the real problem - every imperial slave takes away a job from a free citizen. Why pay someone if you can use a slave for free? And the free citizen left jobless will likely have no option than to sell himself into slavery, taking away another job, and so on. And this is the real reason slavery was abolished IRL - it is a death spiral for economy, incompatible with a free enterprise system.
I mean, it's not like I condemn anyone, this is, after all, a fake galaxy full of fake people, and all the events that happen are not real. But I do find it interesting, plus it's good practice for debating people who actually do unironically argue for oligarchy and slavery and against capitalist liberal democracies using... really similar verbiage. Which I guess means FD did a good job setting up the lore.
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Cmnd Fulsom
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Cmnd Fulsom
This is certainly an accurate appraisal of the situation in the empire. However historically it was never a problem because historically you don't draw slaves from your general population. Usually you take them as prisoners of war, sometimes draw them from convict populations. The actual reason slavery was abolished in the west, is primarily because Britain decided they were going to end it and put a lot of resources into making slave trading unprofitable.
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Cmnd Fulsom
Foreign slaves take away local jobs all the same. Rome had to constantly expand to feed its 100% jobless population. Britain did not abolish slavery because they were kind of heart, they abolished it because once you go the industrial capitalism route, you need paid workers, not slaves - otherwise who's going to buy the goods you produce?
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