Explorers : would you consider giving up on the infinite honk for...?

[Ziljan]

The one button press is ONLY PART of the overall process, I do not believe any of us are objecting to detail and interesting mechanics being ADDED to the rest of the process without taking anything we currently have away.

It seems strange to me how some seem to be ignoring that simple fact.

Currently the exploration mechanic we have is analogous to half a bite morsel of moldy bread that is mostly burned crust & fuzzy spores. What you are suggesting sounds like, if Frontier offered us a life time supply of Filet Mignon (or the vegetarian equivalent) and a date with a super model/star of our choosing, that you would reject that offer if it meant giving up even the merest crumb of your beloved moldy morsel. Am I reading you correctly?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Currently the exploration mechanic we have is analogous to half a bite morsel of moldy bread that is mostly burned crust & fuzzy spores. What you are suggesting sounds like, if Frontier offered us a life time supply of Filet Mignon (or the vegetarian equivalent) and a date with a super model/star of our choosing, that you would reject that offer if it meant giving up even the merest crumb of your beloved moldy morsel. Am I reading you correctly?

I think it's more like .... we wanted a place to party, so frontier arranged an empty barren room which now has explorers wallflowering in uncomfortable silence.

What the room needs is: filet mignon, scantly clad supermodels (of both sexes, the lady CMDRs want eye-candy too, I'm no misogynist), a fridge filled with beer, and a blues rock band playing and lots of explorers partying. Instead of replacing the room with a puddle of mud. Although the supermodels mud wrestling could provide some entertainment.

Seriously, replacing the honk with a game mechanic would have to be a game mechanic which you could do thousands of times without it becoming a chore for most CMDRs. And that is one rare beast to implement.

 

[AsukaZ]

Hello Commanders!

For what it's worth, I personally wouldn't mind removing the infinite honk, just as I'd like to see the removal of the basic stellar scan that forces you to fly close to get any data. I would like to see processes that were a little more involved (and cool looking/feeling) with regards to Commanders actually having to do something, whilst minimising uncessessary super cruise travel time. But this is just me musing. Like the karma system, exploration (and extraction) is something that we'll hopefully be getting into in some more depth in the forums.

I like the sound of this but I'm guessing it's a fair distance away.

I'd like to see the initial infinite scan remain but a different set of mechanics to reveal different levels of information, everything that can be done now but in a different way and with extensions and in a much cooler looking way.

 

[lenna]

Currently the exploration mechanic we have is analogous to half a bite morsel of moldy bread that is mostly burned crust & fuzzy spores. What you are suggesting sounds like, if Frontier offered us a life time supply of Filet Mignon (or the vegetarian equivalent) and a date with a super model/star of our choosing, that you would reject that offer if it meant giving up even the merest crumb of your beloved moldy morsel. Am I reading you correctly?

Your analogy is not even close to being in the same reality never mind the same universe...

There is not a single new feature that would justify removing/nerfing the current ADS mechanic.

 

[verminstar]

Your analogy is not even close to being in the same reality never mind the same universe...

There is not a single new feature that would justify removing/nerfing the current ADS mechanic.

Thats cos there are no new features in exploration since...well since the game launched tbh. Few little tweaks and twerks but nothing substantial...par fer the course with FD. If it doesnt have guns, they couldnt care less...working as intended ^

 

[Urbanski101]

Well it seems some of us have been 'institutionalised' by the honk.

It's like Brookes in Shawshank Redemption (not Michael), been locked up for so long that when given his freedom he kills himself rather than face being a free man in a world he doesn't understand.

We've become so used to the honk that some will fight to keep it regardless of what new mechanics are on offer.

The exploration mechanic is so anaemic and basic as to be barely worthy of being called a mechanic yet people still resist change....sad....look what you have done FDev [ugh]

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Well it seems some of us have been 'institutionalised' by the honk.

It's like Brookes in Shawshank Redemption (not Michael), been locked up for so long that when given his freedom he kills himself rather than face being a free man in a world he doesn't understand.

We've become so used to the honk that some will fight to keep it regardless of what new mechanics are on offer.

The exploration mechanic is so anaemic and basic as to be barely worthy of being called a mechanic yet people still resist change....sad....look what you have done FDev [ugh]

On the other hand, I remember the parallax system like I remember a bad tooth ache. For some CMDRs it was an interesting puzzle, for me it almost meant my career as an explorer would only have lasted a few days. When I did get enough money to buy the God Honk of Infinite Wisdom (+1) I started to enjoy exploration.

I do very much understand the world people are talking about. And that's a world where you have to go through game mechanics to learn about the composition of a system. And it's a game mechanic you will use again and again and again for thousands of times. So you need to keep this in mind when discussing wanting to replace the God Honk with a game mechanic. Because my fear is, that whatever game mechanic is used, after the 1.583th time the novelty has worn off, and it has become a chore a long time ago.

Now about your last comment, people do not resist change. People resist a specific kind of change. The kind of change that makes them go through a mini game each and every system they want to know the contents of. While knowing the contents of a system isn't what I call engaging exploration. Getting up close and personal with the things you have found and digging into the specifics of it is what makes the game interesting for me.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

On the other hand, I remember the parallax system like I remember a bad tooth ache. For some CMDRs it was an interesting puzzle, for me it almost meant my career as an explorer would only have lasted a few days. When I did get enough money to buy the God Honk of Infinite Wisdom (+1) I started to enjoy exploration.

I do very much understand the world people are talking about. And that's a world where you have to go through game mechanics to learn about the composition of a system. And it's a game mechanic you will use again and again and again for thousands of times. So you need to keep this in mind when discussing wanting to replace the God Honk with a game mechanic. Because my fear is, that whatever game mechanic is used, after the 1.583th time the novelty has worn off, and it has become a chore a long time ago.

Now about your last comment, people do not resist change. People resist a specific kind of change. The kind of change that makes them go through a mini game each and every system they want to know the contents of. While knowing the contents of a system isn't what I call engaging exploration. Getting up close and personal with the things you have found and digging into the specifics of it is what makes the game interesting for me.

This^

Plus...
There are lots of different kinds of 'explorer' and they find their enjoyment in different ways - some by finding interesting places to take selfies, some by scanning every body in the system, others simply like to go places that nobody else has been. I'm mostly an astrocartographer, mapping out the galaxy without caring too much about the composition of individual bodies.

All of these different kinds of exploration are valid not all of them would become more interesting/immersive/rewarding if the 'God Honk' was removed - for an astrocartographer like me, it just adds an extra layer of pain between me and my goal.

This is why I've been advocating leaving the ADS alone, but changing the IDS so that it gives the kind of partial information that some of you are requesting for the ADS.
That way everybody wins - the 'God Honk'ers aren't inconvenience, but the 'Bring back parallax' squad get their extra gameplay.

 

[lenna]

Thats cos there are no new features in exploration since...well since the game launched tbh.

... They added SRVs for surface exploration, I would call that SUBSTANTIAL... plus the on-going Thargoid/Ancientrelated content as well.

Then there is the volcanism related features as well...

Ok, we get it you (and some others) find the current exploration system lacking but replacing the current honk/ping mechanic would not improve matters it would just add tedium/grind where none is either justified or needed.

 

[yah-ta-hey]

imho, I think that the advanced discovery scans should show the planets but NOT what type. That is the job of the detail surface scanner. Think about it as being the fog of Discovery. You know it is there but you don't know what it is until you take a closer look.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

imho, I think that the advanced discovery scans should show the planets but NOT what type. That is the job of the detail surface scanner. Think about it as being the fog of Discovery. You know it is there but you don't know what it is until you take a closer look.

Or, leave the ADS as it is and have the IDS do that instead.
Win-Win.

 

[mossfoot]

imho, I think that the advanced discovery scans should show the planets but NOT what type. That is the job of the detail surface scanner. Think about it as being the fog of Discovery. You know it is there but you don't know what it is until you take a closer look.

Well, I'd be cool with that beyond a certain range (say, 100,000ls+) but it should have the same functionality as the BDS and IDS up to that point. Plus the BDS/IBS should have a greater range beyond their current where they provide only that info as well

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Well, I'd be cool with that beyond a certain range (say, 100,000ls+) but it should have the same functionality as the BDS and IDS up to that point. Plus the BDS/IBS should have a greater range beyond their current where they provide only that info as well

I'm gonna be one of those annoying people who keeps asking the same question over and over again - maybe that way I'll get a response

Why not leave the ADS alone and have the Intermediate Discovery Scanner show full details up to a certain range, and beyond that simply indicate that a planet is present?
Those who want more 'discovery' can use the IDS and the rest of us can carry on using the ADS.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

It's obvious that exploration game play needs to be fleshed out.

But you don't do that by turning body discovery into some time-consuming thing - that would worsen the game for everyone, not just explorers. No. You keep the body discovery honk because there is no compelling gameplay idea which would not increase the amount of time, just to find all the spinning balls in a system. None.

The real gains would be made in the body surveying and exploration mechanics - currently, this amounts to pointing your ship at a body and the surface scanner chews over the aforementioned for a bit, then you get data. This is the bit that needs expanded into all sorts of new and interesting gameplay.

Then there're all sorts of things you could add to exploring on a planet's surface - hopefully using more than just the Mk.1 Eyeball, hopefully including adding QoL stuff like just being able to mark a waypoint on a planet, for example.

But what you don't do, is mess around with the ADS - it's not just for explorers - there are so many other player types this would affect, and anything other than instant honk and discovery-of-spinning-balls would only be satisfactory to a very small minority of explorers, and would be insufferable to the rest of the playerbase who finds the current ADS necessary for their gameplay.

 

[Trickylion]

Yes but there is an improvement to the current mechanic.
If a body is non landable, the type is listed in the hud E.g
Earth like world, if it is landable, then the altimeter/speed meter appears and it is a pain to have to open the system map to see what type of planet it is. I suggest the aktimeter speed meter could open later when closer to the. Body itself. Also if terraformable can that be listed in the hud description too?
Opening sys map all the time is awkward when trying to keep within the 7 sec rule.

 

[smegunit]

My biggest problem is actually with the surface scanner.

You fly up to a planet
You reduce speed and aim in the vague direction of the planet.
And then you wait 20 seconds while hearing a sound...

That's twenty seconds of doing nothing
Over and over again
Just let me press a button....something that reminds me that I'm playing a game.

There was something earlier in the thread about different types of surface scans you can do, that would be great
But I'd settle for pressing a button.
You know the absolute basics of gameplay: Press button -> stuff happens.

 

[Godsailsaqueen]

My biggest problem is actually with the surface scanner.

You fly up to a planet
You reduce speed and aim in the vague direction of the planet.
And then you wait 20 seconds while hearing a sound...

That's twenty seconds of doing nothing
Over and over again
Just let me press a button....something that reminds me that I'm playing a game.

There was something earlier in the thread about different types of surface scans you can do, that would be great
But I'd settle for pressing a button.
You know the absolute basics of gameplay: Press button -> stuff happens.

and this surface scanner sound...
Slowly rising in frequency... Sloooooowllllyyyy... reminding you how looooong it takes.... How it will never end... How you'd better not touch the controls for fear of dropping your current scan and having to restart from 0...

Suffering.

 

[Urbanski101]

Another part of this to consider is the time sink, if FDev make it too long and complicated to scan a system and detail scan the planets/bodies therein it could take forever to get anywhere. It's already taken me an age to get to the core and i'm just honking most of the way with occasional stops to check out more interesting stuff.

Hmmm, how to make exploring more rewarding but also not tedious and dare I say it fun? Glad better minds are going to be working on this

 

[mossfoot]

I'm gonna be one of those annoying people who keeps asking the same question over and over again - maybe that way I'll get a response

Why not leave the ADS alone and have the Intermediate Discovery Scanner show full details up to a certain range, and beyond that simply indicate that a planet is present?
Those who want more 'discovery' can use the IDS and the rest of us can carry on using the ADS.

Because I see no downside in providing only mass information on planets beyond, say, 100,000LS, but I do see an upside in having and element of the unknown left even with an infinite ADS honk. An element of mystery.

Be honest, just how many treks have you made to explore things 100,000LS away? 200,000? 500,000? Do you do it every single time? Just how many explorers do you think bother with that? And remember the vast majority of binary/trinary systems have the second/third/etc well within 100,000LS.

How many more systems could you have honked in the time it took you to get out that far? The amount of viable "stuff" you're losing for the rare ultra-far binaries is minuscule, the only thing being upset is some "gotta catch em all" mindset.

Honestly, I'd be MORE likely to travel out 100,000+LS to honk a system, just out of my own curiosity. With an ADS I honk, look at the system map, see there isn't an Earthlike, and move on. But if I've already gone 100,000LS just to get in range for another honk and only then notice there are no Earth Like worlds, well, I still might go the rest of the way to pick up on any high metal content worlds to make the trip worth my while.


Now, if you're asking why don't I just hamstring myself and take a lesser scanner, well, why don't football players all hop on one leg? It would make things more challenging, wouldn't it? We make the most of what we have, but we also set up rules and boundaries within that. Telling people to handicap themselves beyond that established boundary is anathema to human nature. If Elite NPCs are too easy in combat, the solution shouldn't have to be "fly an unshielded sidewinder" You want to push the limits of yourself and your ship.

 

[Gypsy12]

Full idea:

I propose: The BDS, IDS and ADS, all have Detail drop off points. Example:

BDS @ 1000 Ls,
IDS @ 6000 Ls
And ADS @ 60,000 Ls.

After this distance detail is dramatically reduced. Up to twice the rated range, planet colours are visible. At three times the range, they are dark.

At longer distances, only stars or other massive objects can be discerned. Perhaps a graph of some kind could indicate the rough amount of objects surrounding the companion star in the system map until they are scanned within range.

The point of this is to give a quick scan opportunity for players. And the graph analysis indicates whether to bother or not. There should be a bonus for objects more distant to the arrival star.

---------------------------------------------

Regarding detail within the drop off range, planets have a surface map.

This is then successively blurred towards the drop off point. A re-honk nearby will be necessary to clarify the local surface maps. By using a very simple blurring technique, players still have the ability to see if something is interesting or not.

I find this might strike a balance with those who complained about having to time consumingly DDS scan each Planet for a surface map, - those who wanted full surface map coverage of the entire system - and those who wanted everything blacked out.

It should be easy to implement, and as long as covering the extra distance is rewarded financially, it should add gameplay to the very basic idea of the honk itself.

(Side note: As the system works at the moment, with a ADS we can see all the planets surface maps from long range. This is very simplistic and somewhat defeats the purpose of scanning with the DDS. If this idea is kept it would, be nice at minimum to have them be accurate, as often they are not. But we don't want that do we? We are here for bigger fish!)

----------------------------------------------

Once a full system scan is complete, the player should then be rewarded for that. In real life...halfway doesn't mean too much. The intrinsic value of scanning a complete system should take precedence here. We are looking for a somewhat realistic simulation of life here...life in the future. Think of... the Weyland-Yutani corporation from Aliens. (was that the name?) Anyhow: What possible value is scanning a single rock in a system going to do for them? They require - if they should choose to colonize it, every last detail of every last rock in the system, so they can plan accordingly with such a massive and dangerous venture.

Normally, one would obviously say systems next to the bubble would have extreme value. However, you could pass that off as already having been done secretively by the big corporations amongst themselves. However... by the likes of Colonia? Big money indeed. And big incentive...

The aim here is to industrialize exploration, slow down somewhat the exploration of the Galaxy (Which should be in FDEVs favour so they have time to fiddle and create more content) - and produce professional explorers.

And you are all probably going to hate me for saying this! What use is it to sell exploration data to a lonely, disadvantaged outpost in the middle of nowhere? Im talking about the long rangers here. The guys who spend months out in the black. No outpost in its right mind would want to buy details of stellar systems from the other side of the Galaxy. This data... realistically should be only able to be sold with the core systems. The longer the range, the greater the bonus. When explorers sell this data to lonely stations, their bonuses should be forfeited, unless it is a government base way out in the black.

You could even perhaps add a 20% reduction to any craft purchased by that player within a timeframe by that goverment. Give them some fame!

----------------------------------------------

I have so much more to say, but for this evening, ill leave it alone. Im tired. I hope I contributed! All the best,

Gyp.

I know. I reposted. Think about this idea. For all intents and purposes NOTHING changes. The ADS is still there. The one honk solution. So many players couldn't give a rats what is orbiting distant companion stars. But for the peeps who want that little bit extra... The distance could be extended naturally.... Finding a neutral distance would be good.