Anti griefer CG suicide-winder interdiction units...

[Ashnak]

For those of you thinking about using couriers+iEagles to interdict and run from people, please do it! I never turn down the opportunity to collect free kills!
....

540 m/s? That's not running.
In a straight line? He had it coming.

 

[Ziljan]

Indeed, that is one slow courier build. In reality, a well flown Courier even one that only went 540 should have zero problems evading any FDL. Even a rinzler type like in the video above.

But yeah, as for the OP's plan, the idea to interdict is good, but if you are simply dying every time, then you will only slow them down maybe 10%. In these little "nothing ships", it takes them only 30 seconds to submit, kill you, and then jump back to SC. That leaves them with about 5 minutes of uninterrupted murder spree while you fiddle with the rebuy screen, and jumping back to SC and trying to reacquire a target.

Now, if you instead build a ship that can actually chain interdict the snot out of them, and also lead them on a merry chase, or even fight them until you choose to wake away, then you are tying up a nearly unlimited amount of their time, the more gaankers involved in chasing you the bigger your multiplier effect. Remember, it's important to let them think they have a chance to kill you so that they keep up the chase, so let them take a little hull as a carrot to keep them chasing you, and not someone who can't handle the heat.

There is also a strange feature of networking that will break up the ganker 8-wings as a side effect. If you create a multicrew, the netcode is so buggy that wings in the instance will break or at least fracture. Unfortunately it also breaks up Bounty Hunter police squads who are securing the area, so until Frontier fixes the net code for Multicrew, be careful when creating a MC at a popular CG.

 

[MarkAusten]

Sandro Sammarco on using the block function to counter griefers in 2014.

Quote begins :

"Hello Commanders!
In this instance, blocking the Commander might prove quite useful.
When you block somebody, a couple of things should happen.
Firstly, you will receive no communications from them.
Secondly, during any transition where matchmaking is at work (so basically, hyperspace jumps, entering and exiting super cruise) you are much less likely to be matched with the blocked Commander.
Blocking becomes weaker when it comes up against friends (and next year, player wings), because if a blocked Commander is in the same session as a friend (say, because they haven't blocked the Commander, the blocking effect is overruled by the friendship matchmaking.
Outside of this case though, blocking should work fine"

Quote ends.

Link as it's to old to be directly quoted : https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...rdicted?p=1219313&highlight=BLOCK#post1219313

So much for the consensus that it was never intended to effect instancing or that it's use is somehow against the EULA/TOS/rules, it's use seems in fact to be the go to advice the lead designer gives to players when facing griefers. Like I said I researched my purchase.

Game, set and match!

Well played Sir, well played.

 

[MarkAusten]

Indeed, that is one slow courier build. In reality, a well flown Courier even one that only went 540 should have zero problems evading any FDL. Even a rinzler type like in the video above.

But yeah, as for the OP's plan, the idea to interdict is good, but if you are simply dying every time, then you will only slow them down maybe 10%. In these little "nothing ships", it takes them only 30 seconds to submit, kill you, and then jump back to SC. That leaves them with about 5 minutes of uninterrupted murder spree while you fiddle with the rebuy screen, and jumping back to SC and trying to reacquire a target.

Now, if you instead build a ship that can actually chain interdict the snot out of them, and also lead them on a merry chase, or even fight them until you choose to wake away, then you are tying up a nearly unlimited amount of their time, the more gaankers involved in chasing you the bigger your multiplier effect. Remember, it's important to let them think they have a chance to kill you so that they keep up the chase, so let them take a little hull as a carrot to keep them chasing you, and not someone who can't handle the heat.

There is also a strange feature of networking that will break up the ganker 8-wings as a side effect. If you create a multicrew, the netcode is so buggy that wings in the instance will break or at least fracture. Unfortunately it also breaks up Bounty Hunter police squads who are securing the area, so until Frontier fixes the net code for Multicrew, be careful when creating a MC at a popular CG.

I doubt that very much.

But it's easy to blame FD and the net code for things like this rather than the more likely culprit, the Internet.

 

[Ziljan]

I doubt that very much.

But it's easy to blame FD and the net code for things like this rather than the more likely culprit, the Internet.

This has been the case for a long while now, and was uncovered during the Salome event. It's pretty well documented. Denying it won't speed up the fix either

 

[Jason Lightning]

Indeed, that is one slow courier build. In reality, a well flown Courier even one that only went 540 should have zero problems evading any FDL. Even a rinzler type like in the video above.

But yeah, as for the OP's plan, the idea to interdict is good, but if you are simply dying every time, then you will only slow them down maybe 10%. In these little "nothing ships", it takes them only 30 seconds to submit, kill you, and then jump back to SC. That leaves them with about 5 minutes of uninterrupted murder spree while you fiddle with the rebuy screen, and jumping back to SC and trying to reacquire a target.

Now, if you instead build a ship that can actually chain interdict the snot out of them, and also lead them on a merry chase, or even fight them until you choose to wake away, then you are tying up a nearly unlimited amount of their time, the more gaankers involved in chasing you the bigger your multiplier effect. Remember, it's important to let them think they have a chance to kill you so that they keep up the chase, so let them take a little hull as a carrot to keep them chasing you, and not someone who can't handle the heat.

There is also a strange feature of networking that will break up the ganker 8-wings as a side effect. If you create a multicrew, the netcode is so buggy that wings in the instance will break or at least fracture. Unfortunately it also breaks up Bounty Hunter police squads who are securing the area, so until Frontier fixes the net code for Multicrew, be careful when creating a MC at a popular CG.

Weaponizing multicrew like that skirts the exploit line far too much, especially since the intent is less about using multicrew and more about altering instancing.

 

[MarkAusten]

This has been the case for a long while now, and was uncovered during the Salome event. It's pretty well documented. Denying it won't speed up the fix either

And totally blaming the code and not the network, which has also been shown to be the cause of many of the cases of instancing errors and the like, also well documented recently, is still no reason to suggest that the net code is "so buggy" as you are accusing.

Do you even understand the complexities of interfacing with other computers over the Internet in such a way as required by Elite? Few commanders do.

I would suggest that the net code is remarkably free from bugs and a pretty stable piece of code given the interface issues that it has to deal with. If it were as buggy as you imply, the entire game would not work or at least not half as well as it does and instancing problems would be considerably more widespread than appears to be the case.

As for the Salomé event, well anything will break given enough stress and that was a considerable amount of stress, probably exceeding the design requirement of the net code that you so easily slag off.

 

[Morbad]

Cobblers the wishful thinking and whiney entitled demands were that it would never effect instancing because of immersion or something equally vacuous, but that was always just noise from the usual suspects and never FDEV policy. The only big important forum "expert" point you've made is that you seem to have confused some of that three year old theory crafting with reality.

The block function finally works as it was always originally supposed to (I know I've tested it), I can and will use it however I like. It's probably best that you learn to live with that, and the fact that I'll be telling people all about it every chance I get since it's a very easy fix to some problems that are as old as the game and isn't being used or talked about as much as it should.

Your recollection of the history of the block feature has largely been accurate.

I used to have about 60-70 people on my block list from the days when it only blocked comms, but once I realized it was working the way it was originally announced, and thus harming both my experience and that of others, I stripped the list bare.

I'm hopeful that Frontier will come to realize that blocking affecting instancing is a far more severe issue than anything it was ever intended to solve and alter the feature to only block comms, friend requests, and the like, or at the very least adjust the weighing of the block vs other factors and add a separate block for comms.

Interestingly, the only way that players could initially be blocked was after friending them

This isn't true. No one ever on my block list was ever on my friends list, and I had blocked people before launch. They just needed to be in an instance with you at the time of the block.

It was also clearly not working as an instancing prioritization feature, or at least not as well, until relatively recently.

It is true that the new CMDR log also makes the feature a lot easier to use and abuse.

Now, if you instead build a ship that can actually chain interdict the snot out of them, and also lead them on a merry chase, or even fight them until you choose to wake away, then you are tying up a nearly unlimited amount of their time, the more gaankers involved in chasing you the bigger your multiplier effect. Remember, it's important to let them think they have a chance to kill you so that they keep up the chase, so let them take a little hull as a carrot to keep them chasing you, and not someone who can't handle the heat.

That might actually be entertaining for the target, which is what these chain interdictors want to avoid at all costs.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I'm hopeful that Frontier will come to realize that blocking affecting instancing is a far more severe issue than anything it was ever intended to solve and alter the feature to only block comms, friend requests, and the like, or at the very least adjust the weighing of the block vs other factors and add a separate block for comms.

Given that Frontier drew our attention to the blocking system in the Multi-Crew Beta stream (when explaining the revised Comms HUD panel), I'd expect that facilitating blocking was on their agenda - and, as Adam advised that blocking had not changed, it would seem that reduced likelihood of being instanced with a blocked player has been the intention from the outset (see the quote from Sandro above).

This isn't true. No one ever on my block list was ever on my friends list, and I had blocked people before launch. They just needed to be in an instance with you at the time of the block.

Interesting, my recollection may be inaccurate then. What did you use to block them, i.e. which sequence of UI interactions? I still can't find a way of blocking a player from the Main Menu (for non friends, that is).

It was also clearly not working as an instancing prioritization feature, or at least not as well, until relatively recently.

.... probably because, before the in-game UI block capability, people had blocked players on their friends lists which works against

 

[Stigbob]

Interesting, my recollection may be inaccurate then. What did you use to block them, i.e. which sequence of UI interactions? I still can't find a way of blocking a player from the Main Menu (for non friends, that is).

No you are right it was like that back at launch, then you just needed to have them targeted around the time of the speed limit introduction, now you can pick them out of your contacts panel but you have to have been instanced with them to get them onto your contacts.

 

[Morbad]

Given that Frontier drew our attention to the blocking system in the Multi-Crew Beta stream (when explaining the revised Comms HUD panel), I'd expect that facilitating blocking was on their agenda - and, as Adam advised that blocking had not changed, it would seem that reduced likelihood of being instanced with a blocked player has been the intention from the outset (see the quote from Sandro above).

We know it was the intention, but I highly doubt they've fully grasped how it's being abused now that it really works and is easy to access. With enough time and enough Stigbobs out there, Open is going to be barely functional as Open, for anyone. I fully expect it to eventually be reduced to a collection of small private groups, with only the newest of CMDRs not having been blocked by enough people to be reliably instanced with those not on their friends lists.

This will take a while of course, but since they've added the networking page to settings my average rate of successful connections (which I check at the end of most sessions) has declined from 60% to 40% and my CMDR hasn't bad mouthed anyone, attacked anyone without provocation, or even so much as equipped an interdictor in that time. I'm also encountering some malefactors far more commonly than before at CGs, probably because as a player I refuse to block them, even if my CMDR despises them, while many others are all too ready to do so.

Interesting, my recollection may be inaccurate then. What did you use to block them, i.e. which sequence of UI interactions? I still can't find a way of blocking a player from the Main Menu (for non friends, that is).

Still can't block people from the main menu (unless they are your friends), but you've always been able to block people from the comms panel -> contact tab.

Here, this is a screen cap I took from a video I made (for an exploit report) back in March 2015, and I know that block option has been there in some form much longer cause I had been using it since the 2014 betas:

.... probably because, before the in-game UI block capability, people had blocked players on their friends lists which works against

There is more to it than this. Tests were done with blocking people that weren't friended. It never even occurred to me to friend someone to block them; I didn't even know that was a thing until reading it here more than a year after the fact.

 

[Stigbob]

We know it was the intention, but I highly doubt they've fully grasped how it's being abused now that it really works and is easy to access. With enough time and enough Stigbobs out there, Open is going to be barely functional as Open, for anyone. I fully expect it to eventually be reduced to a collection of small private groups, with only the newest of CMDRs not having been blocked by enough people to be reliably instanced with those not on their friends lists.

This will take a while of course, but since they've added the networking page to settings my average rate of successful connections (which I check at the end of most sessions) has declined from 60% to 40% and my CMDR hasn't bad mouthed anyone, attacked anyone without provocation, or even so much as equipped an interdictor in that time. I'm also encountering some malefactors far more commonly than before at CGs, probably because as a player I refuse to block them, even if my CMDR despises them, while many others are all too ready to do so.



Still can't block people from the main menu (unless they are your friends), but you've always been able to block people from the comms panel -> contact tab.

Here, this is a screen cap I took from a video I made (for an exploit report) back in March 2015, and I know that block option has been there in some form much longer cause I had been using it since the 2014 betas:

http://i.imgur.com/N5Qi2Ol.jpg





There is more to it than this. Tests were done with blocking people that weren't friended. It never even occurred to me to friend someone to block them; I didn't even know that was a thing until reading it here more than a year after the fact.

Just accept that you are wrong with good grace. After spending 15 pages whining about the EULA, game ownership, trying to convince people blocking was against the rules, telling me you were done communicating with me 3 times in a week, you've now revealed you have (or had) more than 4 times the number of blockee's I've ever had.

Stop hypocritically clutching your pearls about what I do with my menu.

Thanks for giving me the incentive to find Sandro's original post on the matter, I'll pop off now and start a new thread just about that so it gets maximum exposure.

 

[Perseus]

Sandro Sammarco on using the block function to counter griefers in 2014.

Quote begins :

"Hello Commanders!
In this instance, blocking the Commander might prove quite useful.
When you block somebody, a couple of things should happen.
Firstly, you will receive no communications from them.
Secondly, during any transition where matchmaking is at work (so basically, hyperspace jumps, entering and exiting super cruise) you are much less likely to be matched with the blocked Commander.
Blocking becomes weaker when it comes up against friends (and next year, player wings), because if a blocked Commander is in the same session as a friend (say, because they haven't blocked the Commander, the blocking effect is overruled by the friendship matchmaking.
Outside of this case though, blocking should work fine"

Quote ends.

Link as it's to old to be directly quoted : https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...rdicted?p=1219313&highlight=BLOCK#post1219313

So much for the consensus that it was never intended to effect instancing or that it's use is somehow against the EULA/TOS/rules, it's use seems in fact to be the go to advice the lead designer gives to players when facing griefers. Like I said I researched my purchase.

I have to apologize then.

 

[Stigbob]

I have to apologize then.

Accepted, have rep.

 

[Marshall...]

No you are right it was like that back at launch, then you just needed to have them targeted around the time of the speed limit introduction, now you can pick them out of your contacts panel but you have to have been instanced with them to get them onto your contacts.

Blimey, interesting necro quote from Sandro!!

 

[Morbad]

Just accept that you are wrong with good grace. After spending 15 pages whining about the EULA, game ownership, trying to convince people blocking was against the rules, telling me you were done communicating with me 3 times in a week, you've now revealed you have (or had) more than 4 times the number of blockee's I've ever had.

I never claimed blocking was against the rules.

I never claimed to be done communicating with you.

I revealed the extensiveness of my former block list months ago in the the other thread that had tests revealing the feature was now working to harm instancing, where I expressed a fair amount of outrage at having to remove a bunch of people from my list. In all cases, I explicitly stated that I only blocked anyone except the most overt of cheaters because I though the feature was only blocking comms. As soon as I learned otherwise, I removed nearly everyone from my block list. Go ahead, read my posts in this thread: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...-Another-Player-Stop-Them-Instancing-With-You

I'm going to say no.

Being able to select who you can and cannot encounter, in Open, is against the spirit of the mode.

I've got quite a few people on my block list because I find them to be offensive, annoying, or generally despicable. Now I've got to remove most of them from that list and listen to their drivel if I encounter them, because most of them aren't actually cheaters and aren't breaking any rules. The whole reason I'm in Open is so that I can experience the full spectrum of legitimate CMDR interaction.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ing-With-You?p=5170594&viewfull=1#post5170594

I most certainly do not believe I'm wrong about any statements I've made in this thread, or that any of my statements have been hypocritical.

I am however, somewhat confused about your gross misinterpretation of my statements, all of which have been exceedingly literal.

 

[EvE4evah]

Well after reading Sandro's words, I wonder if everybody at FDev is in sync with his thoughts about gameplay. Even more, I wonder if he still thinks the same. Anyway, regardless of what he thinks, I, as a player, expect different. IMHO Open shouldn't be like that. And just like me, many other CMDRs disagree. So, it's really a matter of, FDev's attention can't really cater to both, group's desires at the same time. I wonder then, which do they prioritize: the active player count, or the buyer count, or their vision regardless. Anyway, I wonder if, by removing Block, will they lose active players, or will they gain more players.

 

[Robert Maynard]

We know it was the intention, but I highly doubt they've fully grasped how it's being abused now that it really works and is easy to access.

Whether it is abuse or a side effect encountered from it working as intended is a matter of opinion.

With enough time and enough Stigbobs out there, Open is going to be barely functional as Open, for anyone. I fully expect it to eventually be reduced to a collection of small private groups, with only the newest of CMDRs not having been blocked by enough people to be reliably instanced with those not on their friends lists.

The game already makes matches for instancing based on some set of criteria - if a player is in a Wing with the player, a friend of the player or blocked by the player (or some combination of these) are just more criteria to be taken into consideration by the matchmaking system.

This will take a while of course, but since they've added the networking page to settings my average rate of successful connections (which I check at the end of most sessions) has declined from 60% to 40% and my CMDR hasn't bad mouthed anyone, attacked anyone without provocation, or even so much as equipped an interdictor in that time. I'm also encountering some malefactors far more commonly than before at CGs, probably because as a player I refuse to block them, even if my CMDR despises them, while many others are all too ready to do so.

The reasons for this decline cannot be determined without doubt (without other information to which we are not privy).

Still can't block people from the main menu (unless they are your friends), but you've always been able to block people from the comms panel -> contact tab.

Here, this is a screen cap I took from a video I made (for an exploit report) back in March 2015, and I know that block option has been there in some form much longer cause I had been using it since the 2014 betas:

http://i.imgur.com/N5Qi2Ol.jpg

Thanks for that.

The difference now is that the player no longer needs to be in the current instance - the recent contacts tab stores historical contacts - useful in the event that one has already left an instance with the player to be blocked, i.e. after a rebuy for instance.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Well after reading Sandro's words, I wonder if everybody at FDev is in sync with his thoughts about gameplay. Even more, I wonder if he still thinks the same. Anyway, regardless of what he thinks, I, as a player, expect different. IMHO Open shouldn't be like that. And just like me, many other CMDRs disagree. So, it's really a matter of, FDev's attention can't really cater to both, group's desires at the same time. I wonder then, which do they prioritize: the active player count, or the buyer count, or their vision regardless. Anyway, I wonder if, by removing Block, will they lose active players, or will they gain more players.

I'd expect that the population of Open is one of their internal metrics (not that they share that information) - and the measures either already in place or soon to be put in place would seem to be designed to make more players want to play there.

I doubt that the block feature would be removed this long after launch....

 

[Morbad]

Whether it is abuse or a side effect encountered from it working as intended is a matter of opinion.

The intent was clearly to reduce the odds of being paired with certain habitually disruptive individuals. The use that many people have been putting it to goes far beyond that, with the preemptive blocking of large numbers of CMDRs with only hearsay and paranoia as rationales.

If Frontier doesn't consider that abuse, the game has worse problems that I feared.