Braben’s Vision and It’s Implications

[Cmnd Fulsom]

You're talking about actual meaning, while I'm talking about the perception of meaning, and even the actual meaning that can be gained simply by adding context through presentation. Take your example of flipping a system. At present, you flip a system and then at some point it flips again due to background simulation ticks.

Now imagine the game adds news articles in the system news section by the other factions about how they need to reign in your chosen faction's activities, or repair the station, or crack down on criminal activity. Suddenly changing system states or supporting your chosen faction stops being something you do to the galaxy, and becomes an ongoing struggle between persistent actors within the world of the game in which you are actively involved and capable of playing a central role.

My primary suggestion is that adding this sort of context and the feeling that the galaxy is actually populated though the tools already existing in the game is an improvement that FD can make immediately, without requiring large amounts of resources to be used in new coding, which would immediately improve player perception of and satisfaction with the game.

I think we can all agree, the more satisfied the player base, the more support they can get for future development, the more likely we are to see a more truly interactive experience especially as we begin to step out of our ships and interact with the world up close and personal.



Stay Frosty,



Cmnd Fulsom

 

[Chrysophylax]

Because, essentially, it doesn't. Braben is building a vision; we're just an enabler via funding. Anyone who remembers him talking during Kickstarter would have already seen some alarm bells, because he was, and still is, fundimentally disconnected from the actual implementation of that vision. We just help that happen, and in return, get to potter around in it.

Sandro and the entire development team, have to somehow create that vision, whilst simultaneously develop something people can actually play. Most people aren't going to be happy with essentially static set pieces. I'm pretty sure David would be chuffed without anyone playing it at all. Just this amazing universe doing it's thing entirely devoid of actual players. Because we're essentially not required for it to function.

The BGS and universe servers don't need us. We don't actually matter. This is something that is fundimentally difficult for people to grasp. It's also why people tend to pitch David against Sandro, with the whole good-cop bad-cop routine. Surely David will save us? It's the same way that Thargoids are the almost invisible threat. They too, are just set pieces in a big universe.

David, really, just doesn't care about how we do anything. He is the ideas man. The visionary. Sandro, the poor sod, has to make it happen. And he along with the entire development team cop an absolute trouncing as a consequence; and when it's something people don't like? Well David is the hero to save us all. Only that's not actually a sane thought process. Because he isn't, hasn't, and won't.

I still see this, any other week. Someone saying "But soon, David will fix all this" or "This isn't what David wanted" and I just die a little inside, because it's that sense of entirely unrealistic hope. He's not there to execute the vision, kids, the entire dev team is. And, for my money? They've done amazing things given what they have to work with. There is work to do. But it's far from unsalvageable.

Despite the occasional misstep - I believe very strongly in the entire dev team. They continue to do amazing work.



Honestly since the ship update, I'm not sure if David has stepped foot in the universe he has orchestrated; certainly not in any visible manner. I think he drove a cutter once? The most influence tends to come from external parties. The last time the developer tried anything, was the faction against the blue-haired people's princess, and I don't think the developer was quite ready for how quickly people removed that threat.

It's stood as an allegory for them I think, though, and perhaps why they just don't really take risks like that any more. The reason we don't really have any affect, why we aren't needed, is because the game, isn't essentially built for us. It's built for David. It's taken a long time for that to shift, I think, to being built for the broader community. There are signs it's changing. Which is promising.

And this is why, fundimentally, we are were we are. With so many promises. I get the impression that Sandro and the team may well want to take the game in a far more player-focused direction - I'm just uncertain if they can. I have always had hope for this game. I still do. But I have come to terms with the realisation, that this is still fundimentally David's vision, and that vision doesn't actually hinge on player action.

And will be for some time. Will it become our game at some point? Maybe. I do hope so.

Some of Sandro's recent comments, as well as the general thrust towards focusing on mechanics, suggest the notion that the player should have actual agency in the game, is incredibly important, and worth developing. Set pieces can be amazing, but they are empty without the life an entire community can give it.

Because I think when it is truley our game, Frontier and player-base alike, one we can genuinely help shape? It'll be amazing. I hope to see that. Soon. But the development team is going to need a lot of support to give us more agency in what is happening around us.

Wish I could rep you more for this.

I have a very healthy and big distrust for cults of personality*. Braben or anyone else's "vision" hardly matters past the kickstarter phase, where there's no product and only ideas. Outside that it's worthless except maybe as a talking point about hopes and dreams. But it pays to distinguish hopes and dreams and reality.

A lot of the posts here touch upon the idea that people kept waiting for the game to start approaching that vision but when the game continually kept falling short of it people just kinda grew jaded. I truly believe that had people kept a healthy skepticism toward anything that a corporation's CEO has to say it wouldn't have happened.

Going back to cults of personality* a bit: maybe it's my inner communist shining through, but damn, Braben (or anyone else's vision) isn't worth as much as the work in making it come true, especially since the two usually diverge by quite a lot; the actual delivered and implemented product has things constraining it, but dreaming up ideas is easy.

​*slight hyperbole here


As regards the game's story: it moves too slowly for a piece of entertainment. I decided it wasn't worth following back in 1.3. The stated goal of having people not matter for the overall 'historical'-like story is not to me a worthy goal for a video game. I'd rather it not exist.

 

[kofeyh]

You're talking about actual meaning, while I'm talking about the perception of meaning, and even the actual meaning that can be gained simply by adding context through presentation.

Sure. But the former, is what engages people. The latter, is simply the delivery method. A universe full of vibrancy and urgency and many layers of amazing mechanics - is still essentially empty - if players aren't represented and they can't, ultimately, affect any of it. Perhaps this is the same coin, from two different sides.

It's been truely refreshing to discuss this, over the more typical fare this forum tends to cough up. [up]

 

[Quantis Trap]

I like the fact that Frontier IS responsive to it's player base and the forum and, at the same time, I like that fact that Frontier IS NOT responsive the the silly whims of the player base and this forum!

I hope that Brabon and frontier employees will continue with this game for a long long time, because, God willing, I'll be there with them.

 

[Cmnd Fulsom]

I would actually argue it's the opposite. The perception of meaning creates the engagement, having actual meaning is certainly the best, most effective and lasting measure for creating the perception of meaning, but it isn't the only one. To be clear, my suggestion is not a permanent measure and I won't pretend it is. The charm of these things will wear off eventually. But what it is, is, potentially, an immediate measure to give people the perception of meaning, and keep them happy until more robust systems of player interaction with the galaxy can be implemented.

I can certainly agree that this has been an invigorating conversation. I'd be glad to fly with you in game some time.



Stay Frosty,



Cmnd Fulsom

 

[Ziljan]

Sure. But the former, is what engages people. The latter, is simply the delivery method. A universe full of vibrancy and urgency and many layers of amazing mechanics - is still essentially empty - if players aren't represented and they can't, ultimately, affect any of it. Perhaps this is the same coin, from two different sides.

It's been truely refreshing to discuss this, over the more typical fare this forum tends to cough up. [up]

Would be great if players were given more levers and pulleys for sure. And more meaningful consequences to things like BGS actions, and better bonuses for being allied, bigger negatives for crimes committed, being in control of more systems, integrated colonization mechanics, population increases/decreases from immigration/emmigration/death/war/plague, etc. And perhaps most importantly, the ability to grow the wealth and power of a system, semi-permanently upgrade the station offerings and economics, downgrade it as well during rough times.

The current BGS system has more depth, complexity, and inputs than many people give it credit. In fact, the woven threads of the BGS create a dance that is a thing of beauty. However, the outputs are so mild that it's often hard to tell when a system in a certain state without checking the system map, or the faction status in the system info tab. I would say that the BGS definitely needs bigger more dramatic swings, and even more levers, and more outputs. I am sure it would be a huge thing to try to balance without the bubble imploding or exploding though, and I am sure there are reasons why Fdev hasn't pulled the trigger yet on a more dynamic. But, it would be amazing if we could actually help to nurture and grow our home systems.

 

[kofeyh]

I like the fact that Frontier IS responsive to it's player base and the forum and, at the same time, I like that fact that Frontier IS NOT responsive the the silly whims of the player base and this forum.

That's debatable. Frontier have in fact responded to the whims of the player base and forums on more than one occasion. To be fair if you are on the winning side of any change, you get to write the history, or the perceived degree of "whim", so..

I too have hope for the game's future; preferably one where we have the ability, however minor, to effect global change over time. It's not healthy for the future for the game to become stale. Something there is a genuine risk of.

The BGS is a frightening beast and capable of much more. Ziljan raises a great point. I think this is where a lot of player restlessness can come from. The slow realisation that nothing matters. It should. Even in the smallest sense.

It's not an easy road Frontier are on, but I am truely glad they keep trying.

 

[andrak]

Braben's idea of what he has created is entirely at odds with what his team have actually created.

Concessions could be made about depth when the game would actually abide by it's own rules. Not now, after RNGineers casino, mario cart SRV mat collection and arcade gunner mode.

Elite doesn't know what it's trying to be.

 

[Cmnd Fulsom]

But, it would be amazing if we could actually help to nurture and grow our home systems.

I'm going to home in on this bit, because this is, to me, the most interesting idea put forward. In some ways, nothing needs to change in terms of how we interact with the game for this to happen, what needs to change is how the background simulation handles stations, economies, and states to create more consistent states such as "growth" and "recession" and allow outposts to grow larger over time during consistent periods of growth (I would love to see large stations that are very clearly small stations that have been built onto over time, like how some cities are unplanned and end up with crazy road layouts while others are planned and have, mostly, roads that intersect at perfect 90 degree angles) and large stations and outposts which can completely lose services with times of recession (with outposts being more vulnerable depending on size).

That's a large enough undertaking all on it's own, with many layers of changes needed for it to happen. But similarly, I'd love to see more mechanics for players to directly build up systems and maybe turn a profit in the process. For instance, I'd love to have the ability to start a company on a station, and have the business that brings contribute to the growth of the station over time. It would also provide another way for players to interact. If, for instance you were to start Ziljan's Sprockets having players come though and sell raw materials, either to you or to the station, would increase your output, profitability, and your effect on system growth. It also means that now as a person with a supply line you care about, system security and more importantly player piracy is now something you care about. Not as a forum user, or as a victimized trader, but as CEO of Zijan's Sprockets. a concerned businessman whose business is now directly effected by criminals in the world.



Stay Frosty



Cmnd Fulsom

 

[Falkenherz]

I couldn´t care less about Brabens vision. I still play Elite because it is the only "real galaxy" simulation you can fly in about. If I could decide, Elite would long have a campaign, roleplay characters, and lots of player-built things so that sandbox finally becomes true. And much bigger and more "realistic spaceships" and not the bobblehead-cockpit-versions we have right now. Right now, it is barebone rng missions coupled with said fantastic galaxy and a rather unimmersive galactic-civilisation background frame.

Therefore, I am hoping towards 2.5 and improved core gameplay. I am hoping for chained missions and attached memorable characters, not just one scetchy Professor Palin. I want to feel like I did with the new revamped first tutorial mission, which felt like a totally different game! Therefore, I couldn´t care less about Thargoids; without campaign and roleplay opportunities, their appearance will be rather bland.

And, then, finally, as a crowning achievement, atmospheric planets and elite legs.

 

[Aashenfox]

Hm, post about the future of elite with no mention of meaningful multiplayer pve content or fleshing out piracy to be a career as rewarding as bounty hunting....I've got nothing to say here except that.

 

[Cmnd Fulsom]

I have to know, what, exactly, would be meaningful multiplayer pve content? Surely killing AI ships alone would be exactly as meaningful or less than killing AI ships with friends. And this is from someone who is primarily a bounty hunter who finds the AI kind of disappointingly predictable. As for making piracy a viable career (if not more/less/equivalently profitable as any other career) sure. Feel free to make suggestions, if they're good I'll gladly get behind them.



Stay Frosty,



Cmnd Fulsom

 

[Aashenfox]

I have to know, what, exactly, would be meaningful multiplayer pve content? Surely killing AI ships alone would be exactly as meaningful or less than killing AI ships with friends. And this is from someone who is primarily a bounty hunter who finds the AI kind of disappointingly predictable. As for making piracy a viable career (if not more/less/equivalently profitable as any other career) sure. Feel free to make suggestions, if they're good I'll gladly get behind them.



Stay Frosty,



Cmnd Fulsom

You must have missed my megapost on this subject. Are you familiar with boss encounters in other MMOs? That require coordinated tactics to defeat, every player performing their dance steps to perfection while maximising DPS on target and being aware of what's going on around them? The skill required is immense, and the satisfaction palpable when you win. Essentially, most people who have been playing space games since the 80s, salivate at the thought of getting 9 other players together in a fleet and going and taking out an enemy fleet of 30 ships in a glorious tactical battle where the big tanky ships stay in the melee and highly optimised smaller ships lay down the pain, before proceeding to the 'boss' (let's say a station), which can be downed/destroyed using clever strategy against insurmountable odds.

Here's my megapost, I admit I'll be impressed if you read it all, but you can skip the narrative bits if you want, they are just to show that I have my mind in the Elite universe, not in other MMOs. In any case, I won't deny that I'd appreciate the bump.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...-the-kettle-on-hope-some-will-enjoy-the-read)

 

[Vorxian]

I know I'm opening a real can of worms with this.. but maybe ED does need to get a tad more cliche. I don't mean REALLY cliche, but, a little more.

Bring out the MMO dark side.

For me, there's no better multiplayer content than... yes.. I know.. I'm about to say it.. A DUNGEON! I don't really mean gloomy cellar type dungeon, but, the kind of multi player instanced session that allows a group of players to join up to defeat a challenge that any of them may not be able to accomplish by themselves.. I say may not.. perhaps for the likes of o7o7, stitch, morbad etc... that could probably solo this (note the name and fame, not name and shame!)

Back on track: For the rest of us.. to be able to team up.. and actually be able to present a team to face a challenge would be great. The cliche part is ship to ship support. Do you take a heavily tanked cutter.. do you take ships sacrificing damage for healing beams.. do you have ships sacrificing all for all out DPS, incorporating multicrew.. Unfortunately it's nothing but cliche... but alas it can sometimes be the most engaging.

I cannot help feel there's not enough engaging group tasks available... most, if not all things in ED are quite lonesome endeavors.. A little spice up would be a great addition.

EDIT: no sooner posted... Aashenfox above me beat me to it wish I could rep, but i need to spread more around first.

 

[Aashenfox]

I know I'm opening a real can of worms with this.. but maybe ED does need to get a tad more cliche. I don't mean REALLY cliche, but, a little more.

Bring out the MMO dark side.

For me, there's no better multiplayer content than... yes.. I know.. I'm about to say it.. A DUNGEON! I don't really mean gloomy cellar type dungeon, but, the kind of multi player instanced session that allows a group of players to join up to defeat a challenge that any of them may not be able to accomplish.. I say may not.. perhaps for the likes of o7o7, stitch, morbad etc... that could probably solo this (not the name and fame, not name and shame!)

Back on track: For the rest of us.. to be able to team up.. and actually be able to present a team to face a challenge would be great. The cliche part is ship to ship support. Do you take a heavily tanked cutter.. do you take ships sacrificing damage for healing beams.. do you have ships sacrificing all for all out DPS, incorporating multicrew.. Unfortunately it's nothing but cliche... but alas it can sometimes be the most engaging.

I cannot help feel there's not enough engaging group tasks available... most, if not all things in ED are quite lonesome endeavors.. A little spice up would be a great addition.

I love you. Read the post I linked above if you haven't already, and give me a bump!!

 

[Vorxian]

I love you. Read the post I linked above if you haven't already, and give me a bump!!

Think we might have posted the same thing at the same time... you cheeky dawg!

virtual rep applied +1

 

[Sitoutumaton]

The first is for our expectations , both with respect for development and content. In terms of development, it seems the lions share of effort is given over to the galaxy’s physical environment and its fidelity to science, visual beauty, and immersive audio. Perhaps understandably, the gaming elements and social tools are taking a tad longer to build out. It also means the gaming content is not likely to ever be comparable to linear, storyline games. Even so, Frontier has much more to do outside of combat (e.g. exploration, trading, mining, crafting) so that pilots with different interests can truly chart their own way.

A description and complaint rendered upon Frontier: Elite II and Frontier First Encounters too. The scale and complexity of the simulation is now larger and prettier, and I recognize the effort and beauty in them. However, from business and consumer perspective I would be more interested in the interactive aspects. Compare to a similar megaproject of intricate simulation, if I was pitched Dwarf Fortress as a medieval fantasy world simulator first for 60 euros, with adventure mode a year later for another 60, and fortress mode in distant future behind another purchase, I wouldn't be leaping in to make the purchases.

The second is the importance of the community to developing an infrastructure for the social environment. One aspect of Elite that is heavily criticized is its absence of quality tools for organizing pilots and finding information. The community’s response has been to create a set of extraordinary “social tools” — think Coriolis, Elite Trade Net, EDDB, Inara, and the like. This is an opportunity for Frontier to build out its social environment in direct collaboration with the community. I hope the Third Party Strike is proving productive in this respect.

For sake of longevity, purpose and enjoyment, community management tools built into the game must come at some point, and the sooner the better. We can do a number of things as a lone commander, or ie. playing solo mode. For some this is all they ask of the game, and it's fine with me that they've met their needs. But for those who grow tired of solo, the options are to put off the game until they feel the need to go solo again, or find purpose in community efforts.

Right now, the community exists outside the game. We have multicrew for up to three players, wings for up to four ships (or more players if all are multicrewing), and that's the extent of letting players work together right now. Then there's friends list, but you can't categorize your friends nor put up messages that persist (Message of the day, standing orders, news etc.), something which communities need to organize and communicate. In-game tools are lacking to non-existent. To find, join and organize these communities of players, we must resort to third party platforms like Inara, Discord, TeamSpeak and multitude of forums.

That an important portion of the game experience lies outside the game, and necessitating energy and time to be used outside the game is detrimental in my opinion. I need to install what now? I need to register where? So I have to learn a new system to administrate with? This time and energy could be used instead within the game with tools provided by it.

Tangentially as guilds and PMFs are hairy in context of Elite, not to mention Brett C and the engineers responsible for injecting player minor factions go through. Two forms to register with, outside the game, to be interpreted, error-checked and then implemented by whichever manual pathway they have set up. This takes time, and errors still can happen. It's not efficient, and that there are no ready tools for the task suggest this wasn't thought of before the need materialized.

If the original vision was that we are to be lone commanders who interact by chance of instancing without networking together, then we shouldn't be given multicrew, or wings, or megaships and minor factions since that already implies teaming up and forming communities to work for them and be used by them. We have them, so the vision must have community interaction in it. Bringing in-game community tools should be a priority.

TL;DR - Community organizing tools should complement existing in-game tools, not compensate lack of them in my opinion.

No comments on the third point of original post.

 

[Kaltern]

I do wish people would stop talking about space legs and atmospheric planets, as the solution to all problems.

None of this will fix anything. It will just create more empty space for insignificant things to not happen.

It's time to consider a player economy. Allow players to make and sell stuff. Do something with module classes so only players can make the better stuff. Remove engineers completely, and let players do it instead with some provisos.

I bet goldfarming has nothing to do with the decision to not include this, and more to do with Frontier simply not wanting to get their fingers dirty. Braben's vision is great, but it's not what makes a good game great. Making some of the gameworld belong to a player - thats what makes it great.

I don't expect a warm reception to the suggestion, because too many closedminded people equate player economy with that.. other 'space' game. It doesn't need to be like that at all. Just opened up a little. Let us do something meaningful with all these minerals and metals we've mined.

 

[A D]

I read the Rolling Stone interview and the OP is a reasonable summary. I was left with no doubt that David Braben is passionate about ED and would like see it continue to evolve for so long as it has the support of the player community.

That being said, IMO (and I stress, just my opinion) the life of ED will probably be measured in financial terms, not popularity. When you read the interview, David Braben plainly has reservations about the current pricing model and thinks a subscription model would have been a better choice. I suspect this is because diminishing returns are inevitable with a fixed pricing model and FD will face increasing pressure from what must be significant recurring costs associated with delivering a global MMO that is also evolving. Porting the game to consoles may delay this process, but a move away from the fixed pricing model will be needed if we are talking about an MMO with ongoing development for (say) the next 10 years.

 

[Eymerich]

I do wish people would stop talking about space legs and atmospheric planets, as the solution to all problems.

None of this will fix anything. It will just create more empty space for insignificant things to not happen.

It's time to consider a player economy. Allow players to make and sell stuff. Do something with module classes so only players can make the better stuff. Remove engineers completely, and let players do it instead with some provisos.

I bet goldfarming has nothing to do with the decision to not include this, and more to do with Frontier simply not wanting to get their fingers dirty. Braben's vision is great, but it's not what makes a good game great. Making some of the gameworld belong to a player - thats what makes it great.

I don't expect a warm reception to the suggestion, because too many closedminded people equate player economy with that.. other 'space' game. It doesn't need to be like that at all. Just opened up a little. Let us do something meaningful with all these minerals and metals we've mined.

Last thing Elite needs is a player drived economy just like eve, where kids who has no life can pass 27/24 hours at day ruling over a virtual world making it unaccessable to Others.

Stop this nonsense please...


*** EDIT Added Content ***

About Op, I have tasted that vision and gameplay are 2 very different things in a videogame.

Unfortunatly for Braben, Elite - as it is now - it's miles away from his vision.

I hope he'll consider this...

Before 10 years would be better