As another PVE(open) player, I enjoy using the Engineers to improve aspects of my ships including weapons. I've never found getting the necessary materials a grind either. Most I collect incidentally while playing the game and a very small number I've specifically tracked down.
I never though I'd say this, but I'm starting to like Engineers
- Thread starter GreyAreaUK
- Start date
You're right. Increasing FSD range and normal space speed (DD5) don't add anything to PvE.
(Yes, I'm in sarcasm mode just to be clear - it's low humour time of day)
On the whole for me the positives out weigh the negatives. I'm PvE and not competing with anyone, having access to a few upgrades is a nice extra. I'm never too focused on them, and unlock and do them as and whenI want.
As I play Ironman I would like to see several different ways to unlock them though.
As I play Ironman I would like to see several different ways to unlock them though.
verminstar
Banned
Fer me it is nothing but a mad dash to get through them as fast as possible...only reason I'm doing them at all is because there aren't any casinos in colonia. Even a half decent increase would be enough, so I'm really not interested in god rolls...not even sure what a god roll is tbh.
Only here fer a few weeks, the black is calling and hard to resist. Got ganked twice yesterday in the space of an hour so really, sooner they done, sooner I get back to colonia and civilisation.
Its not a bad system, but not s great one either...the rng aspect just murders it far as I'm concerned. I don't see them as engineers, I see them as voodoo witch doctor casino dealers whose only real skill is selling luck. Makes a mockery of real engineers who rely on skill and long years of experience.
I can see why others love them, but they live in the bubble...whereas I count down the days where I get what I need and get out ASAP ^
Personally ive always liked engineers but theres a couple of things with them i dont...
The fact we can custom tailor our ships to our setups is one of the biggest positives in elite.
Collecting materials for the engineers , while i agree that there shouls be some time/cost it is the pure rng nature attatched to the mateials i dont like very much. Rng to spawn a USS , Rng with what you find in the Uss if you happen to find the correct one. This can be very quick or very long depending on lady luck which can be very tedious at times if hunting specific mats.
Id much prefer sliders but it is what it is and until FD make a change i'll just plod along with it.
The fact we can custom tailor our ships to our setups is one of the biggest positives in elite.
Collecting materials for the engineers , while i agree that there shouls be some time/cost it is the pure rng nature attatched to the mateials i dont like very much. Rng to spawn a USS , Rng with what you find in the Uss if you happen to find the correct one. This can be very quick or very long depending on lady luck which can be very tedious at times if hunting specific mats.
Id much prefer sliders but it is what it is and until FD make a change i'll just plod along with it.
That sounds really awesome - unfortunately, that's not how it would end up working out.
If we were able to use sliders, or the web that you mentioned, within a few days, someone would math out the optimal setup for each module, and most likely, for entire loadouts. As such, this is what the majority of people who Engineer would do with every modification. You might think otherwise, but consider the Reforging system from World of Warcraft. It was put into the game for the express purpose of allowing players to customize their secondary stat distributions, and build their characters in a unique way. This was the vision, but that isn't what ended up happening. Optimal Reforging was quickly mathed out for every spec of every class, and soon after, a 3rd party add-on was created that did it for you automatically. Instead of individualization, it led to cookie-cutter builds (that were, in fact, optimal). Since it didn't meet the vision (and because of stat bloat), it was removed from the game. The same thing will happen here, too. This is half of the reason that the Engineers are RNG, and why they need to be. The other half of the reason is because unicorn parts are awesome, but they can only be done using an RNG system. If you could make those on demand (no matter how many extra mats it might require), then they are not special parts, they become "standard" upgrades, which we already have in the form of A-E.
What you wrote sounds great - tell me how what I wrote sounds.
Riôt
I concur. All my exploring was done before the engineers arrived too - in fact, it was the engineers that made me decide to come back. I think I spent the first two years of the game outside the bubble in my AspX. Since I returned, I haven't really had much desire to head back out (I'm finding many enjoyable things to do in civilisation
). Engineering is completely unnecessary for exploring (though that's not to say it isn't desirable).You are right. However, you asked what benefit engineers had to PvE, and have been answered. Engineers benefit both PvE and PvP, as they benefit the ship.
I only have 3 left to unlock, I hate them. I hate them more, the more I unlock.
I see when RNG is good and when it is bad, some of the mat RNG is good; like rare military ones come from combat ships and war-zones. Other mat RNG is bad; such as wake scan data for FSD upgrades? ?
I also see how imbalanced they are, it's fine to make them more powerful than un-modified ships, but ham-stringing G1 and 2 mods with unexplained negative effects is just stupid. Realistic expectations? What if you want go for a lower grade effect? Guess what: you fkn can't. You are encouraged to grind more and more on G5's until you get something godly.
The way it is, everyone is gestured to aim for god tier mods - powerful mods which must be locked behind RNG to ensure scarcity - even though anyone with time and tolerance of the mind-numbing grind will achieve anyway.
The idea that the game-play is passable; just as long as you don't play it too much, is moronic.
That is already happening though, this cookie cutter monotony is exactly what already happens - minus the apps. You are also forgetting, that if player's have access to the perfect build, then they will also have access to the perfect counter build and so on. On top of that, the game already has hundreds of builds required for different in game activities - it is impractical for anyone to fly around in a "cookie cutter" unbeatable ship, because that ship is full of hull reinforcements anyway. Even if cookie cutter builds became the normal daily activity ship (which they never would, think about it) then my god, at least it would be balanced!
These points against sliders do not stack up.
I see when RNG is good and when it is bad, some of the mat RNG is good; like rare military ones come from combat ships and war-zones. Other mat RNG is bad; such as wake scan data for FSD upgrades? ?
I also see how imbalanced they are, it's fine to make them more powerful than un-modified ships, but ham-stringing G1 and 2 mods with unexplained negative effects is just stupid. Realistic expectations? What if you want go for a lower grade effect? Guess what: you fkn can't. You are encouraged to grind more and more on G5's until you get something godly.
The way it is, everyone is gestured to aim for god tier mods - powerful mods which must be locked behind RNG to ensure scarcity - even though anyone with time and tolerance of the mind-numbing grind will achieve anyway.
The idea that the game-play is passable; just as long as you don't play it too much, is moronic.
That is already happening though, this cookie cutter monotony is exactly what already happens - minus the apps. You are also forgetting, that if player's have access to the perfect build, then they will also have access to the perfect counter build and so on. On top of that, the game already has hundreds of builds required for different in game activities - it is impractical for anyone to fly around in a "cookie cutter" unbeatable ship, because that ship is full of hull reinforcements anyway. Even if cookie cutter builds became the normal daily activity ship (which they never would, think about it) then my god, at least it would be balanced!
These points against sliders do not stack up.
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There are 3 changes i would like to see applied to engineers, which would i think go someway to alleviate the most common (and justified imo) complaints.
1) Remove secondaries. Some mods can have a huge increase over the maximum roll via a secondary effect. And i say that as someone who has a 'god roll' due to this.
2) Solve/fix the CIF gate, either by changing blueprints or the CIF drop rate. CIF is used in 3 of the most important mods, G5 charge enhanced PD, DirtyDrives G5 and G5 longrange. CIF is a huge bane to many people particuarly PvPers (DWE is also a pita to everyone, but at least only 1 essential mod uses it).
3) HD shield boosters need adjustment. They are far to powerful in there current state.
ymmv on these points.
In the main i have enjoyed engineering my fleet, it has kept me occupied for some time now.
1) Remove secondaries. Some mods can have a huge increase over the maximum roll via a secondary effect. And i say that as someone who has a 'god roll' due to this.
2) Solve/fix the CIF gate, either by changing blueprints or the CIF drop rate. CIF is used in 3 of the most important mods, G5 charge enhanced PD, DirtyDrives G5 and G5 longrange. CIF is a huge bane to many people particuarly PvPers (DWE is also a pita to everyone, but at least only 1 essential mod uses it).
3) HD shield boosters need adjustment. They are far to powerful in there current state.
ymmv on these points.
In the main i have enjoyed engineering my fleet, it has kept me occupied for some time now.
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I've just bought my first Anaconda. Holy heck this thing is HUGE! I'd unlocked Farseer a while back, so I took her in for a could of rolls on FSD and engines/scanners. Jump range hitting 38LY now, which is pretty acceptable for something that big. I'm sure it can go further, but as a start, it's amazing. It's a beast of a ship, and I don't think I would have been happy to use it in stock config, so Engineers definitely have their uses!
Sounds like you're talking about minmaxers and metagamers, which are unstoppable in any game ever because that's part of their game as players. It's irrelevant as to what system you implement if the overarching protocol is "utilize any given system to its fullest advantages" or "seek the currently-iterated pinnacle from which to rain death upon your enemies". These are independent of any game system. The kind of math you're talking about already exists for these players in Elite, except it's just super obnoxious to accomplish, not impossible.
If they made engineers another layer of ship upgrades that's pretty much what I want; a large field of ship modifications and modules and tweaks that can be approached from a number of angles. I don't want any unicorn parts, I want a system where the build options take some effort to achieve the better they are, but are still equally accessible to any pilot who wants to put in X amount of effort into the system. That's not any different than Gran Turismo gameplay; that's the kind of parameter-affecting detail level I'm looking for. You could build two cars exactly the same and still tweak the parts for different performance aspects.
Agree with the OP. The fact there is no ceiling is great because I will always have something more to do to improve my ships. And tbh, I actually enjoy the SRV based shenanigans required to get the mats. The Mario Cart race tracks on various g and traction surfaces with wildly different elevation mapping are a blast. Prospecting on exotic ice moons at the foot of a back lit translucent ice mountain is downright dreamy.
The only parts I don't care much for are passively waiting around in Supercruise for a High Grade Signal Source or watching a hundred hours of mat grinding being gobbled up in a few seconds on the slot machine alter of RNGjesus. Mostly though it's the idling around in SC that is the most dull part of engineers.
The only parts I don't care much for are passively waiting around in Supercruise for a High Grade Signal Source or watching a hundred hours of mat grinding being gobbled up in a few seconds on the slot machine alter of RNGjesus. Mostly though it's the idling around in SC that is the most dull part of engineers.
No - what I'm talking about is you going to Coriolis/Inara, telling their new tool (which will for sure get built) what your desired outcome is, and then it shows you exactly how to set the sliders/web to achieve that. Additionally, there will be an Optimal Settings option, which will show you how to set up your entire ship. This is what sliders/webs become, and in very short order. There are people who think that they won't utilize a tool like that, but once they realize that the tool does indeed provide the optimal results, they will start using it as well. And they should, to be perfectly honest. There are some who enjoy handicapping themselves, but most people will go for the best result they can get.
You keep mentioning Gran Turismo - I don't know about that game, but I do know Forza Motorsport, and back when I was playing it a lot, I could go grab one of Davyskills' setups. It was eye-opening how much better the car performed when it was set up optimally, instead of using the standard, or what I thought might be "better." Your vision seems to be you tinkering with your ship (which I also like, by the way), but the reality is that either someone else is going to tell you how to tinker, or you will come to the same conclusion(s) on your own in a longer period of time. Either way, you end up in the same place (like the optimal setups for each track/car combination).
Once you are there, and have that knowledge, then you aren't really tinkering anymore, are you? That's one of the points that I'm trying to make, without saying it explicitly earlier. It just becomes another layer of standard upgrades, which is not what the Engineers should be. They are supposed to be able to work wonders, so to speak, but the only way those wonders can be achieved is with RNG.
Also - everyone who uses the Engineers does have the same chance on every roll, and they are equally accessible to every Horizons-enabled pilot who wants to put in X amount of effort into the system.
Riôt
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This is how I go about it. It stops it being a grind and I rarely get disapointed with an upgrade.
Grind with engineers seems to be a playstyle choice.
I am not against customisation, I just think the mechanics to achieve it could be way better.
You're right. Increasing FSD range and normal space speed (DD5) don't add anything to PvE.
You missed the point (no sarcasm intended).
PS
Just saw your second post, well you got the point
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My point was that any other design/mechanic where you get increased stats would also benefit PvP and PvE. The RNG casino doesn't add anything to the game that couldn't be achieved with other, better mechanics.
Its exactly this part which is my main issue with the current design, when hunting for materials then all the other activities are engaging to do. Srv hunting for mats (while im not really a fan of srv's) has you actively reading scanners and chasing down those rare pings, all the while having to navigate sometimes very rough terrain.
Ship found materials also is engaging gameplay with having to locate your ship and the fun element of making it pop, although the rng again comes in when they pop i can live with it as the gameplay around it is engaging.
But and heres the but ... simply waiting in SC watching the screen for random USS to pop up isnt at all engaging enough to be enjoyable for me. It can be very very tedious at times.
