Explorers : would you consider giving up on the infinite honk for...?

[Ziggy Stardust]

The level of detail on the ADS means we already know what what kind of planet we're dealing with. With a single button press the game removes all of the decision making process, so we have nothing left to contribute except answering the soulless question: can I be bothered to scan this HMC or not? So I guess you're right it's not really press to Win, it's press to Lose.

I disagree with that. A single button press starts the decision making process. At the moment we have nothing left to contribute, so we are left with the question: scan or not, and that has to be improved. If we get new mechanics for planet inspection, you have the information to make a decision, since you are aware of the environment to make that decision.

Lets say we remove the infinite honk. At the start of a survey of a system, this new mechanic, which decisions would it provide us? Enter system -> [fill in the blank]

Because as far as I can tell, a new (ADS) mechanic won't introduce new decision making. It will place you at the start of a mechanic (mini game?). If you want to explore the system, you need to go through this mechanic, or move on. That is the only decision I can make out, and that decision is already present.

edit: decision,decision,decision,decision,decision.

 

[Obsidian Ant]

Overall though, that only really matters if you are one of those that cherry pick rather than explore properly.

There is more to exploring than finding ELW/WWs.

For the sake of clarification, could you perhaps elaborate on what you feel to "explore properly" actually is?

 

[GeneralIdea1964]

My feelings are that the honk should stay as it is. It cost 1.5 million, so it's not easy to get at first.
Where see improvements is that system map should be more vague if you've not explored the system.
Maybe if someone else has scanned it, a little more info should be provided.
So a basic 'honk' discovery gives a wire-frame graphic while
Someone else's scan maybe gives some more rough info.
When you scan it, the graphic and info can be more detailed still.
I'm not sure how many people need to scan a system to make its details public knowledge. That is if this is how it works?
And finally, I'd like to get some cash for asteroid belt items.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

I disagree with that. A single button press starts the decision making process. At the moment we have nothing left to contribute, so we are left with the question: scan or not, and that has to be improved. If we get new mechanics for planet inspection, you have the information to make a decision, since you are aware of the environment to make that decision.

Lets say we remove the infinite honk. At the start of a survey of a system, this new mechanic, which decisions would it provide us? Enter system -> [fill in the blank]

Because as far as I can tell, a new (ADS) mechanic won't introduce new decision making. It will place you at the start of a mechanic (mini game?). If you want to explore the system, you need to go through this mechanic, or move on. That is the only decision I can make out, and that decision is already present.

edit: decision,decision,decision,decision,decision.

An eloquent surmise of the proposal and its effects.

The ADS gives you a map of the play area. That's all it does. Then you decide where in the map you want to explore.

Silly proposals like removing the whole-system range of the ADS, or even stupider proposals to make the planet icons in the system map black, are the equivalent of having a map and drawing all over it with a big black felt-tip marker, the end result being that the decision-making process only has time added to it, and if any of those completely dumb proposals were implemented, I'm sure there will be huge backlash from a large part of the player base.

It's what I've been saying all along - you don't obscure the map, you add a lot more interesting things to explore within the map, and you add in a lot more interesting mechanics to explore the map. That's why proposals to obscure the map are just plain unintelligent.

In addition, given that there are 400 billion such maps, any decision to make the time taken to obtain a map take any longer than it already does, is just sheer madness.

 

[Obsidian Ant]

In addition, given that there are 400 billion such maps, any decision to make the time taken to obtain a map take any longer than it already does, is just sheer madness.

This is why I suggest the honk remains, and generates the system map we currently have.

Then new mechanics can be added so that new scanners can be used to generate a far more detailed orrery map. This new map could contain all manner of information, and then once complete become a valuable commodity.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

This is why I suggest the honk remains, and generates the system map we currently have.

Then new mechanics can be added so that new scanners can be used to generate a far more detailed orrery map. This new map could contain all manner of information, and then once complete become a valuable commodity.

Yep you completely understand the implications. It's what I've been saying in this thread and all previous threads where there's been an utterly crazy proposal to obscure 400 billion game maps, rather than expanding on what to discover within those maps and adding interesting Science! things to do within the map area.

And yeah, I like that idea of keeping the ADS exactly the way it is, but further exploration helps build up an orrery view. A complete orrery view of a system would be a rewarding thing to build up. You start off with your 2D system map as we have today with the ADS, then you do need to take the time to build up a complete orrery view, which would be more valuable to sell than a basic ADS honk. I like that!

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I've not seen anything that suggests replacing that mechanism with something other than:

Honk, time-comsuming activity, check, move on

Time consuming activities are fine, as long as they are fun and you enjoy it.

Or...

Honk, check part of system and ignore the unknown bits, move on.

I don't think we can get rid of the initial honk, but I have certainly suggested something else.

My idea is that you get your standard honk, but the details you get may be a bit different to give reasons to scan these planets.

So you decide to explore the system, you then send out probes to some of the planets to do detailed scans while you head to one to scan yourself, this will drastically cut down on the time taken to scan a whole system which is a good thing and is needed. We could have a limit on how many probes we have, maybe 3 for a large ships, 2 for a medium and 1 for a small, or base it on something else or cargo space (these things will be heavy so will reduce your jump range). These will do a DSS scan on the planets and send back the data on a tight beam communication to your ship, so you have a live feed of whats going on.

Using DSS or probes to scan the planets which will then show up any stuff that is important, anamolies in specific areas, geological activity, habitation etc etc with rough areas for you to go and investigate if you want to. Then replace the blue POI circle to something like the wave scanner on the SRV on the ship, so there is a bit of skill involved in finding stuff.

This will need an orrery map of the systems though so you can programme your probes to go to different areas. You could also see their progress from planet to planet. It certainly would make things far more interesting, with a bit of management involved as well.

 

[RandomGun]

Silly proposals... even stupider proposals... completely dumb proposals

utterly crazy proposal

Bad day? Lack of good arguments?

Since we sell our data to Cartographers I say the original intention is that we are map makers and not just automatically generated map users. Other exploration naturally follows that map making.

I wish that the map making process would have more and different gameplay than it now has. I also wish that the map data could be bought from stations and shared with other pilots.

 

[space voyager]

I too think the original honk should remain. It could give additional info though like that an anomaly is present. Speaking about new additional content. Then it is up to you to decide and use additional scanning to find what sou have been notified about.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Bad day? Lack of good arguments?

Since we sell our data to Cartographers I say the original intention is that we are map makers and not just automatically generated map users. Other exploration naturally follows that map making.

I wish that the map making process would have more and different gameplay than it now has. I also wish that the map data could be bought from stations and shared with other pilots.

When you selectively cut out all the good arguments and leave just the snark, you've created a strawman to knock down. Well done. Included within the pointing out the idiocy of obscuring 400 billion maps for no good reason at all, was precisely WHY it's idiocy. Cutting out the reasoning doesn't invalidate what I said.

Bad day? Lack of good arguments?

Since we sell our data to Cartographers I say the original intention is that we are map makers and not just automatically generated map users. Other exploration naturally follows that map making.

I wish that the map making process would have more and different gameplay than it now has. I also wish that the map data could be bought from stations and shared with other pilots.

Also, you forgot to mention the basic ADS map isn't worth much, compared to doing a more detailed survey of said map via the surface scanners, further invalidating your post.

 

[Mengy]

So you decide to explore the system, you then send out probes to some of the planets to do detailed scans while you head to one to scan yourself, this will drastically cut down on the time taken to scan a whole system which is a good thing and is needed. We could have a limit on how many probes we have, maybe 3 for a large ships, 2 for a medium and 1 for a small, or base it on something else or cargo space (these things will be heavy so will reduce your jump range). These will do a DSS scan on the planets and send back the data on a tight beam communication to your ship, so you have a live feed of whats going on.

Using DSS or probes to scan the planets which will then show up any stuff that is important, anamolies in specific areas, geological activity, habitation etc etc with rough areas for you to go and investigate if you want to. Then replace the blue POI circle to something like the wave scanner on the SRV on the ship, so there is a bit of skill involved in finding stuff.

This will need an orrery map of the systems though so you can programme your probes to go to different areas. You could also see their progress from planet to planet. It certainly would make things far more interesting, with a bit of management involved as well.

This is an interesting idea, make exploring a system like a mini RTS (Real Time Strategy) game? You send out your supercruise probes and task them to scan various planets in the Orrery map, the strategy and decision making comes in where you send them to most effeciently hop from planet to planet in order to scan the system as quickly as you can. Send one probe out to a cluster of gas giants, send the other to a second M star with a few planets a ways out, while also flying your ship out to that K star with planets which is 200,000ls distant. Scanning then becomes a mini strategy game.

With regards to how many probes you can field at one time, that could be dictated by a probe controller module, similar to a collector or survey limpet controller for mining, but this type would make supercruise probes for exploring. Different sized probe modules could control varying numbers of probes simultaneously. And with limpet sythethis coming in 2.4 that would allow explorers to keep making probes indefinitely in deep space, with occasionally needing to land on planets to collect more mats to make more probes.

I like it.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

This is an interesting idea, make exploring a system like a mini RTS (Real Time Strategy) game? You send out your supercruise probes and task them to scan various planets in the Orrery map, the strategy and decision making comes in where you send them to most effeciently hop from planet to planet in order to scan the system as quickly as you can. Send one probe out to a cluster of gas giants, send the other to a second M star with a few planets a ways out, while also flying your ship out to that K star with planets which is 200,000ls distant. Scanning then becomes a mini strategy game.

With regards to how many probes you can field at one time, that could be dictated by a probe controller module, similar to a collector or survey limpet controller for mining, but this type would make supercruise probes for exploring. Different sized probe modules could control varying numbers of probes simultaneously. And with limpet sythethis coming in 2.4 that would allow explorers to keep making probes indefinitely in deep space, with occasionally needing to land on planets to collect more mats to make more probes.

I like it.

I like the expansion of my idea here. I think explorer type ships should get 1 or 2 scanning slots that can only be filled with certain parts otherwise we may end up making the DBX irrelevant again.

Lets say the DBX gets 1 type 1 slot for scanners only, the AspX gets 2 type 1 slots for scanners only. The annaconda isn't a dedicated exploration vessel, so doesn't get any, but has enough slots anyway for it to not make much difference.

 

[RandomGun]

Cutting out the reasoning doesn't invalidate what I said.

Well, I didn't invalidate your opinions. You don't like the thought of mapping systems in the game because there are so many maps to make. I'm fine with that.

Also, you forgot to mention the basic ADS map isn't worth much, compared to doing a more detailed survey of said map via the surface scanners, further invalidating your post.

How does that invalidate my point? We map systems and get money from Cartographers and not from Planetologists. Map making has three different tools: BDS, IDS and ADS. I think it is obvious that map making was intended to be a distinct part of the gameplay. And it is, but it just isn't very good gameplay -- and ADS ruined it.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

... and ADS ruined it.

Other scanner options are available.

 

[RandomGun]

Other scanner options are available.

Do you think they are better?

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Do you think they are better?

If you don't like the information that the ADS gives you, don't use the ADS

Personally, I think that the scanner mechanism needs reworking, but that the current level of information provided by the ADS for the initial query (honk, or other action) remains the same as we currently have.
If somebody feels that the ADS-level scanner provides too much information, then they can use the BDS or IDS. There are plenty of suggestions for what level of information would be appropriate to each of these scanners.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Allow me to predict the answer to your question: "you can always shoot into your foot if you think the game is lacking pain!"

Some people play Iron-man
Some people don't use engineers
Some people roleplay limitations to their activities
Some people fly to Beagle Point in Sidewinders

Some people refuse to consider not using the best available equipment and are happy to force their interpretation of gameplay onto other people.

 

[Oktusha]

Me personally would love to see the solar system map remade completely to more accurately show the system you are in. Then drop probes sort of like you had to do in Eve a long while back before it was made stupid easy... However, that is just me... lol...

 

[Pinchsmokey]

Hello Commanders!

For what it's worth, I personally wouldn't mind removing the infinite honk, just as I'd like to see the removal of the basic stellar scan that forces you to fly close to get any data. I would like to see processes that were a little more involved (and cool looking/feeling) with regards to Commanders actually having to do something, whilst minimising uncessessary super cruise travel time. But this is just me musing. Like the karma system, exploration (and extraction) is something that we'll hopefully be getting into in some more depth in the forums.

Yes please. Hey, a new system! Bong, im done. Ummmm. Fun? Engaging? Nope. 50% of the system is 200k ls away, lets go and scan each body! Nope.

This coming from someone who wants to explore. The tools just are lacking.

I would envision slowing down after jump in, the main star automatically regestering and sending probes to throughout the system.
Want a basic scan as you pass through? Drop 1 probe, ping, get the basics as we get from the current honk, move along.
Want every detail? Drop half a dozen, send them to specific bodies. Have various kinds of probes for different jobs, although that could turn into a pita with management.
But you get the gist.

 

[Kestril]

I can't get behind RTS probing. It completely breaks verisimilitude for me. Everything in elite is done from the cockpit. I think exploring should be no exception.

Furthermore, waiting for probes to travel is functionally equivalent to waiting for your ship to travel in supercruise.

It's a strong "no" from me.