Spacefaring lifeforms, rare and random encounters...
- Thread starter Aashenfox
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We have animals that can produce light, others that produce electricity. Why not animals that can produce other forms of energy that exist in the game, such as force fields or even FSD fields. Such creatures would be more likely to develop on a planet than in space, but an innate force field might enable some creatures to survive their planet's atmosphere or even survive a meteor strike that blasted some individuals into space, so creating one or more species of spacefaring creatures.
Indeed.
Not quite.
The biggest problem would be: How did they evolve so far that the question of movement even has to be considered ...?
In space, there is simply no possibility to initiate life.
Even if not carbon based, you would need some molecules to meet and match. Therefore you'll need a solvent. There is no solvent in the cold vacuum.
Well, then why not let them form on a planet and then let them "somehow" immigrant into the void?
Unfortunately, such a species would have adopted to the conditions of their planet. Evolution can take us so and so far. But it has to work with what is based on the passed. There is still a fish in us (our bone structures, for example). Even single cell organisms (certain enzymes haven't changed much since their very first days - incidentally enzymes that enable us to deal with oxygen, which is highly toxic for organisms if not properly dealt with).
One simply can't take a creature that has evolved on a planet and make it space-dwelling. (Only a tiny part of it is indeed locomotion. How to leave the gravity sink in the first place? I want to see the bird that is able to reach hyperbolic excess velocity ...)
Okay, not planet-born then. What about species composed out of pure energy? We see it in science fantasy all the time, so ...
Unfortunately, energy has the nasty tendency to disperse. Ask the physicists who try to keep those fusion plasmas in check. Or laser engineers who try to keep the focus of a laser beam.
One of the major attributes of life is the separation of 'inner' and 'outer'. Cell membranes were the first thing "invented" to make life possible at all. What physical, spontaneous process do you guys know that assures this regarding pure energy? (Magnetism, I hear? Again, tell it those fusion researchers; they might be interested to learn about it.)
Speaking of cell membranes and solving agents.
There are theoretical possibilities that life might be able to form in different solutions than water. H2S, for example.
The thing is, water is almost a magic molecule. My chemistry professor had an encyclopedia of 1 1/2 meter just about this "element".
The main reason for its properties lies in its high dipole momentum. Life, if not in vacuum then somewhere else, might be possible without water - theoretically.
But as water is such a common feature in the galaxy, it's much, much less likely.
Oh ... and liquid water and vacuum doesn't match well ...
Then there is the issue of energy turnover, which is another basic characteristic of life. Where to get this energy from?
Photosynthesis? Maybe. But you'll need something to deoxidize in order to store all the gathered energy. maybe water again? Oh, I forgot... vacuum!
Regarding "dense" space nebulae to feed on ... well, yes, they look impressive and dense from a distance. And oh my, distances we have, in space!
From closer within, things change a bit. Those "dense" nebulae feature approximately one atom per cubic meter. Which makes it harder to breath than on the top of the Mount Everest, but is still way more than in other regions of space.
I could go on and on and on.
Sorry for the long, meaningless post. You guys know all this already, of course.
It's just hot outside and I can not play ED in my Rift and I am bored.
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TLDR:
Scientifically, living space creatures are utter nonsense. Doesn't matter, how big space is. Sorry.
But as I mentioned already in a post above: As a player and science fiction/fantasy reader, I still would love to see those creatures in Elite Dangerous!
And I don't care, if they are space dragons propelled by rainbow farts ...
I'll argue this til the cows come home. I just cannot accept that our limited perception of the universe is the only one and correct. So many things we can't explain, many of them far more bizarre than how a cell multiplied without a solvent... Sure, no creature that conforms to biological norms as WE know them, could exist, much less develop in space, but I'm sure that biological matter (of which there is plenty in deep space, just floating) could have gravitated together, and under the right kind of radiation, mutated and evolved.
![[VR] Deggial](https://forums-cdn.zaonce.net/data/avatars/m/47/47252.jpg?1553527110){kind=avatar}
I'd love to discuss this with you, sitting in a bar, a nice glass of red wine in our hands. (Just leave your pipe in the pocket, please.
) For this forum, it goes too far, I fear.Just this one point: Don't underestimate the importance of the solvent! All the organic matter in the universe (which does indeed exist in abundance) won't form life, if it can't move freely, meeting other molecules and form new structures eventually.
@ babelfish:
I hope, you didn't take my post as a comment against your stance! (I tried to avoid this impression by agreeing with you, including my +rep.)
I just took it as a hook to prelude my rumble.
Anyway, regarding rainbow farts ... I was just halway joking. We can discuss the color, of course. But IF there would be space-dwelling creatures, a sort of energy (light) repulsion (farts) might indeed be the only way to move. After all, you were very right pointing out this issue. Having stated this, they also could gather rocks and throw stone pebbles in order to create repulsion ...
I live for these debates, I have a beautiful summer house in Rafina, I'm living there at the moment, just outside Athens, spare room, come on over. We can sit on the balcony, 30 degrees with a cool breeze coming in off the ocean, the sound of the waves 100m away, such low light pollution the milky way is clearly visible, and chat universe theory. Though I fear your technical knowledge exceeds mine, I'm big on general concepts and creativity.
I don't think I'll be able to ditch the pipe though, is that a deal-breaker? lol.
P.S. Since I do want to show that I don't just consider these things superficially, I feel I should point out the one thing that people often forget when it comes to finding other life in the universe...
So, you think space is 'big' do you? It is nowhere near as big, as it is OLD. You not only have the problem of two civilisations (or even lifeforms), existing in the same local space as to be likely to encounter each other, or even evidence of each other's existence without faster than light travel, you have the far BIGGER problem, of both lifeforms existing at the same moment in time. We stood upright about 150 thousand years ago, and we are on the verge of self destruction. That's not just a galactic millisecond, it's a tiny tiny fraction of a galactic nanosecond.
As Carl Sagan famously pointed out, if you express the lifetime of just the Earth (not the universe, which is MUCH older) as one year, humans have existed for the last 6 minutes of december 31st (I hope I got that right, anyway, even if not, the meaning is clear). If you set two machines to turn on a light completely randomly once in a year for exactly 6minutes, the chances of both lighting up at the same time over 1000 years are astronomical. As are the chances of having life not only near us, but also existing in the same timeframe as us, regardless of how it evolved.
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So, you think space is 'big' do you? It is nowhere near as big, as it is OLD. You not only have the problem of two civilisations (or even lifeforms), existing in the same local space as to be likely to encounter each other, or even evidence of each other's existence without faster than light travel, you have the far BIGGER problem, of both lifeforms existing at the same moment in time. We stood upright about 150 thousand years ago, and we are on the verge of self destruction. That's not just a galactic millisecond, it's a tiny tiny fraction of a galactic nanosecond.
As Carl Sagan famously pointed out, if you express the lifetime of just the Earth (not the universe, which is MUCH older) as one year, humans have existed for the last 6 minutes of december 31st (I hope I got that right, anyway, even if not, the meaning is clear). If you set two machines to turn on a light completely randomly once in a year for exactly 6minutes, the chances of both lighting up at the same time over 1000 years are astronomical. As are the chances of having life not only near us, but also existing in the same timeframe as us, regardless of how it evolved.
Oh, definitely!
It's a fact that always makes me a little bit sad when I muse about the likeliness (or the non-existance of it) to meet other inelligent species.
This is, by the way, why I like the introduction of the 'Guardians' in ED. Finding relicts of long gone intelligent life forms is way more likely than finding living representatives.
Your argument holds true mainly for intelligent life, though.
Here on earth, some bacteria exist since billions of years almost unchanged. They don't have to change, as they are perfectly adopted to their life conditions.
As long as they are not endemic (so limited to a small region that might be destroyed by accident), there is no reason to assume that they might get extinct until earth itself gets destroyed.
In this case, the whole planet could be considered as "endemic" habitate.
IF we assume that space dwelling aliens would exist - somehow - and that they would be able to move around in the entire universe (like Moya or Lex or this Star Treck alien mentioned in this thread), "local" disasters (such as the explosion of the main star) wouldn't bother them. Their species would just continue living in all the other places they settled.
And here, the age argument turns against you! IF intergalactical space monsters could exist, they would have settled the whole galaxy by now. With high chances for having reached our own sun system as well. We might have encountered them by now ...
(This is a thin argument, of course. We are not even able to detect asteroids when looking inward our system in direction of the sun. Space is big. maybe our solar system is already overrun by those aliens, happily playing hide and seek in the rings of Saturn. We probably wouldn't have detected them by now ...)
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On the subject of 'if aliens were already here and didn't want to be found, we wouldn't be able to find them', I wholeheartedly agree, and often wonder if that's why I have the feeling I'm being watched when there's nobody else around! Our perception is so limited!! When will we evolve into energy, hm? Perhaps that's what death is?
Our perception is so limited!! When will we evolve into energy, hm? Perhaps that's what death is?
Well, you start with a cow. Then you genetically engineer it a lot and end up with a space whale. Once you are bored with the whale, you start with a crocodile and end up with a space whale eating shark. And so on.
It is amazing how many space faring creatures those crazy alien scientists of Coal Sack region managed to engineer in their time. Weird hobby. Only a few species remain, but they are all awesome.
(Awful plot but works for me.)
Personally I'd go with handwavium and have these space faring life forms. I believe there was even an episode on Babylon 5 where an explorer encountered a space faring lifeform. Also I believe the original elite made mention of other space faring life forms. It would be really awesome to go exploring and come across one of these.
With all the hyper intelligent scientists on this forum, who've discovered and understood all the basic laws of the universe. To the point that they can definitely as a fact say that something like this is not possible. I'm surprised we haven't gone to other stars, solved our energy crisis, figured out how to live forever and invented a hover skate board. Always keeps reminding me of a time when very learned and respected people flatly and factually stated that the world was flat and the sun revolved around the Earth. And woe be to those who said otherwise. Oh and also learned scientific people who scoffed at the notion that there were other planets circling other stars. I heard they laughed and derided other scientists that stated otherwise.
Greatest hindarance to learning seems to be higher education.
With all the hyper intelligent scientists on this forum, who've discovered and understood all the basic laws of the universe. To the point that they can definitely as a fact say that something like this is not possible. I'm surprised we haven't gone to other stars, solved our energy crisis, figured out how to live forever and invented a hover skate board. Always keeps reminding me of a time when very learned and respected people flatly and factually stated that the world was flat and the sun revolved around the Earth. And woe be to those who said otherwise. Oh and also learned scientific people who scoffed at the notion that there were other planets circling other stars. I heard they laughed and derided other scientists that stated otherwise.
Greatest hindarance to learning seems to be higher education.
De Chelonian Mobile
[alien]
[alien]
OoOoO now I'm gonna see if I can get this.... I remember Zev
You can stream Lexx seasons 1 through 3 free if you have Amazon Prime.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/video/detail/B0719TS9DX/
Yummy.
Blackcompany
Banned
I hear you, Ouberos. That being said, as much as I respect the lore of this game, the playing field is just too damn big and has too much potential for there not to be other things out there. I mean that from a "player interest" perspective. Basically what I mean is - to hell with the lore, I want to see fantastic stuff out there. Other civs, space whales, asteroid worms, whatever.
What makes Star Wars and Star Trek and every other space sci-fi thing out there so great is the fantastical wonderfulness of the galaxies wherein they take place.
On the other hand, in Elite, when I stare into the black, I think "Yep, there's 400 Billion star systems that are all dead and pretty much the same."
Science is boring. That's why we have science fiction
"Science is boring. That's why we have science fiction."
My. God. THIS!
400 BILLION systems in the game. And all we have to look at are wreckage and beige normal maps someone probably borrowed from an old FPS game.
Seriously, you want the BASIS for the game to be hard science. Thats fine. Let the BASIS for the game be just that. But if a few beige normal maps and some copy pasta wreckage are really all people will EVER have to see in this galaxy you have created...you've wasted it. Utterly, completely wasted it.
You could have done that with a fraction of the space, and left time to hand craft stuff across that fraction. To make it deep and interesting. As opposed to wide and shallow.
Get creative. Be bold. Enough with the supposed hard science.
Science is boring. That's why we have science FICTION.
Agreed.
The flat Earth thing is a bit of a myth actually, the ancient romans knew the earth was round and came up with a close approximation of the circumference by measuring the length of shadows of equal height poles at noon at different latitudes.
Galileo and his ilk ran into trouble as the heliocentric view of the solar system contradicted the religious dogma of the day, Humanity and the earth being Gods greatest creation and so must be placed at the centre of the universe, with everything else revolving around it (what arrogance!).
I take your point though but I think it's more an issue of human nature rather than higher education itself, stubborness, arrogance, closed mindedness, a sense of superiority, etc. Fortunately with science when the evidence of something new becomes undeniable the consensus will eventually swing around to accepting it.
And in the words of Arthur C. Clarke - "If an esteemed professor says something is not possible, he is most likely wrong. If he says it is possible, he is most likely right."
Okay, as I seem to have annoyed some people, I feel obliged to clarify.
I thought (maybe wrongly) we had an interesting discussion about the likeliness of spacefaring creatures in reality.
I've posted facts that I've learned to be true - facts that limit the likeliness of those creatures. I am not sure, why mentioning these facts counts as arrogant and stubborn.
I am sorry, if my contribution did offend anybody. This wasn't my goal.
Indeed!
The point is, Galileo and all the other "offenders of current knowledge" presented a new working theory, backed by evidence or at least a reasonable hypothesis that could be discussed.
Just saying "the universe is big and all sort of things can be imagined" doesn't really qualify as any of this.
If anybody posts a reasonable proposal of how such creatures could come to existence (and that doesn't violate basic laws of physics), I am more than willing to change my stance.
(Having said this, please forgive me, if I won't continue this discussion here at the forum. Lengthy argumentation exchanges via posts are really not my thing. As mentioned above: a bar, a cosy fireplace and a glass of red wine ... and on we go.)
I thought (maybe wrongly) we had an interesting discussion about the likeliness of spacefaring creatures in reality.
I've posted facts that I've learned to be true - facts that limit the likeliness of those creatures. I am not sure, why mentioning these facts counts as arrogant and stubborn.
I am sorry, if my contribution did offend anybody. This wasn't my goal.
Indeed!
The point is, Galileo and all the other "offenders of current knowledge" presented a new working theory, backed by evidence or at least a reasonable hypothesis that could be discussed.
Just saying "the universe is big and all sort of things can be imagined" doesn't really qualify as any of this.
If anybody posts a reasonable proposal of how such creatures could come to existence (and that doesn't violate basic laws of physics), I am more than willing to change my stance.
(Having said this, please forgive me, if I won't continue this discussion here at the forum. Lengthy argumentation exchanges via posts are really not my thing. As mentioned above: a bar, a cosy fireplace and a glass of red wine ... and on we go.)
Ah sorry, went off topic it seems.
Also I was talking in general terms, not specifically about anyone, or anything you posted. Apologies if I gave you that impression.
Back on topic, as mentioned the concurrency problem and just the vastness of space pretty much precludes meeting another spacefaring species unless we're very lucky (or unlucky as it could turn out). They could be out there somewhere but we might never know.
As to how they come into existance, probably the same way we did. However that happened. I don't think our little corner of space is different to anywhere else so what happened here could easily happen anywhere the conditions are suitable.
There's also the questions of how common is complex life, how common is intelligence, how long a technological society could survive without destroying itself, etc.
There's also the age of the universe to consider, 15 billion years, with the earth being 5 billion years, one third of the age of the universe for us to come into existance. Is that a relatively short period of time ? Are we among the first ?
Apologies again, I wasn't having a go at you at all.
I'm kind of the same, on the forum I just tend to throw things out there, float or sink, and hope I'm not misinterpreted.