Star Citizen Thread v6

[Asp Explorer]

To Genuine Roberts though - VR is not immersive or high fidelity. He went on quite a speech about how his Vision would be terribly compromised by VR. It doesn't deliver the cinematic experience he demands the player sits through.

I am sure that >30fps and the insistence on poorly implemented forced animations have nothing to do with it.

 

[dannysquid]

Thats the whole point: SC claims they will all be modeled and you see see them all. If an NPC ship has their engineer to do something, the engineer would walk to place X in the ship, pull lever Y to cause the ship to do something. Its absurd, and no sane person would ever believe that would either work (or attempted, I am simply not buying the idea that CIG wont just blackbox it). But it fits with the idea 'you can secretly board the ship, intercept the engineer, stealth-kill him using the best FPS experience ever to sabotage the ship, with other NPC crewmembers realistically reacting towards what is happening."

These sorts of things are very appealing, but it's the sort of gameplay you come up with when you're lying in the bath rather than in the real world of development. We all love complicated interlocking systems, but throw in multiplayer and you have something where it will take an impossibly long time to find all the weird bugs and edge cases.

Even if they deliver most of what they're promising I'm not sure how they'll avoid a really messy broken release that takes years to sort out (particularly if sub-studios move onto other things). Still, I'm more optimistic than most on this thread. A lot of it looks really cool.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

These sorts of things are very appealing, but it's the sort of gameplay you come up with when you're lying in the bath rather than in the real world of development. We all love complicated interlocking systems, but throw in multiplayer and you have something where it will take an impossibly long time to find all the weird bugs and edge cases.

Even if they deliver most of what they're promising I'm not sure how they'll avoid a really messy broken release that takes years to sort out (particularly if sub-studios move onto other things). Still, I'm more optimistic than most on this thread. A lot of it looks really cool.

i think you found the solution there..... get rid of multiplayer and all the baggage which surrounds it. perhaps support basic "invite to game" features so one or 2 players can play together and leave it at that.....

(not really serious, tho i WOULD pay for that game!)

IME "other people" are the number 1 cause for ruining a perfectly good game.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

i think you found the solution there..... get rid of multiplayer and all the baggage which surrounds it. perhaps support basic "invite to game" features so one or 2 players can play together and leave it at that.....

(not really serious, tho i WOULD pay for that game!)

IME "other people" are the number 1 cause for ruining a perfectly good game.

Harsh, too general, not true. But I agree that ED would do just fine without MP.

 

[Zyll Goliat]

i think you found the solution there..... get rid of multiplayer and all the baggage which surrounds it. perhaps support basic "invite to game" features so one or 2 players can play together and leave it at that.....

(not really serious, tho i WOULD pay for that game!)

IME "other people" are the number 1 cause for ruining a perfectly good game.

This is what SQ42 is supposed to be not the SC.......You can´t just "wave" your hands few times and said lets forget about multiplayer options and all the baggage which surrounds it in a game that was advertised as MMO with multicrew player driven ships as their PRIORITY???Thats just ludicrous.....

Also I am sry to tell you but you should realize by now that VR ain´t gonna miraculously show up in SC.....not saying that is impossible but if you know anything about VR games and how they work then you should figured that SC is far away to become one of those especially with that jerky/twichy/glitchy movements and dozen of animations,also don´t forget poor optimization and lame 30 fps in current PU...All that combine in VR and you got the ULTIMATE VOMIT SIMULATOR..........

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Harsh, too general, not true. But I agree that ED would do just fine without MP.

I was not expecting to be taken seriously.... that said, SC could do just fine without multiplayer, IF that was the game they wanted to make.... (its not and that is ok but generally anything a human can do, an npc can do just as well if made well enough AND they can be trusted to not jerk around because they are bored unless the devs want them too).

This is what SQ42 is supposed to be not the SC.......You can´t just "wave" your hands few times and said lets forget about multiplayer options and all the baggage which surrounds it in a game that was advertised as MMO with multicrew player driven ships as their PRIORITY???Thats just ludicrous.....

Also I am sry to tell you but you should realize by now that VR ain´t gonna miraculously show up in SC.....not saying that is impossible but if you know anything about VR games then you should figured that SC is far way to become one of those especially with that jerky/twichy/glitchy movements and dozen of animations also don´t forget poor optimazation and lame 30 fps in current PU...Al that combine in VR and you got the ULTIMATE VOMIT SIMULATOR..........

1) there was a reason i put the smiley in there... it is not something i seriously expect CIG to do, nor would i want them too... whilst personlly it would not harm the game i want to play, iam not selfish enough to want to force that on all the guilds etc which have built up around the game.

2) regards to VR.... i sort of agree.... I have been saying for a long time - before the bomb Ben Parry dropped - that SC was making every mistake in the book for vr.... But a lot of that extra stuff could just be disabled for a VR mode,

the framerate... well..... I am not being funny but, if the game launches and only manages 30fps even on a high end rig at even low settings i fear there will be a bigger level of discontent than just the VR users. Zyll, you may be prepared to let VR go and chastise those trying to still be vocal about it - a feature CR was very supportive of and who promised to work closely with oculus to get it working properly.

but then how is you essentially telling me to get over it and move on any different to me saying "drop multiplayer" to those in guilds waiting to fly their big ships? the difference was i was not being serious... it sounds like you are.

btw S42 is nothing like privateer... privateer is far more like starcitizen... (oh and the slider to remove player interaction from controlled systems to a very minimal level was also a feature which encouraged me - a solo player - to back, but i guess as you are not interested in that getting the chop that is no problem either...... I hope for your sake none of the features YOU hold dear ever get back burnered ).

 

[Asp Explorer]

The 30FPS limit seems backend enforced - rigs far better than mine experience the same limits. I don't expect this to change without extensive changes to the networking implementation - and I don't believe that will happen any time soon.

 

[Zyll Goliat]

I was not expecting to be taken seriously.... that said, SC could do just fine without multiplayer, IF that was the game they wanted to make.... (its not and that is ok but generally anything a human can do, an npc can do just as well if made well enough AND they can be trusted to not jerk around because they are bored unless the devs want them too).





1) there was a reason i put the smiley in there... it is not something i seriously expect CIG to do, nor would i want them too... whilst personlly it would not harm the game i want to play, iam not selfish enough to want to force that on all the guilds etc which have built up around the game.

2) regards to VR.... i sort of agree.... I have been saying for a long time - before the bomb Ben Parry dropped - that SC was making every mistake in the book for vr.... But a lot of that extra stuff could just be disabled for a VR mode,

the framerate... well..... I am not being funny but, if the game launches and only manages 30fps even on a high end rig at even low settings i fear there will be a bigger level of discontent than just the VR users. Zyll, you may be prepared to let VR go and chastise those trying to still be vocal about it - a feature CR was very supportive of and who promised to work closely with oculus to get it working properly.

but then how is you essentially telling me to get over it and move on any different to me saying "drop multiplayer" to those in guilds waiting to fly their big ships? the difference was i was not being serious... it sounds like you are.

btw S42 is nothing like privateer... privateer is far more like starcitizen... (oh and the slider to remove player interaction from controlled systems to a very minimal level was also a feature which encouraged me - a solo player - to back, but i guess as you are not interested in that getting the chop that is no problem either...... I hope for your sake none of the features YOU hold dear ever get back burnered ).

Well I did get your smiley then again you continue and said really serious, that you WOULD pay for that game so.....

Anyway current limitation of 30 FPS are caused by poor NETWORKING not the hardware but to be honest even in off line mode ppl. struggle to have 60fps and I think that is the absolute maximum you can have atm,and we know that we need minimum to double that frames if we want some decent VR experience as 60fps are per eye so you are actually rendering the scene 120 times per second and that is just faaar away distance for SC + all the problems I already mention above........

 

[Ian Skippy]

I was not expecting to be taken seriously.... that said, SC could do just fine without multiplayer, IF that was the game they wanted to make.... (its not and that is ok but generally anything a human can do, an npc can do just as well if made well enough AND they can be trusted to not jerk around because they are bored unless the devs want them too).

Sorry, but that is by far the most absurd claim I have read today. And if you know something I dont, feel free to collect a Nobel prize and a couple billion dollars.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Well I did get your smiley then again you continue and said really serious, that you WOULD pay for that game so.....

Anyway current limitation of 30 FPS are caused by poor NETWORKING not the hardware but to be honest even in off line mode ppl. struggle to have 60fps and I think that is the absolute maximum you can have atm,and we now that we need minimum to double that frames if we want some decent VR experience as 60fps are per eye so you are actually rendering the scene 120 times per second and that is just faaar away distance for SC + all the problems I already mention above........

A single player Star citizen with full solo rpg mode possibly able to invite friends in like say, payday 2... hell yes i would buy it......... but I realise i am a dying breed of gamer who covets the single player game and it is not nore ever will be SC, i just hope there are enough crumbs in SC for me to enjoy the game.

As for your VR thoughts....... i would have agreed with you 6 months ago... but with ASW it IS possible to get good VR at a vsynced 45fps. now...... in all honesty i dunno if anyone has ever designed a game designed on the assumption that it was going to be using ASW 100% of the time............... and certainly ASW works better for some games than others (and elite is not a shining example) but assetto corsa works really well with it)

so, now, I reckon so long as a vsynced 45fps is possible once it is fully optimised - and if it isnt that is kind of shameful for a pc game - so long as CIG cut all the carp that is currently in the 2D game from any VR mode, if there is a will do do it, i can only hope they manage it, despite clearly not really caring about VR up until now.

The 30FPS limit seems backend enforced - rigs far better than mine experience the same limits. I don't expect this to change without extensive changes to the networking implementation - and I don't believe that will happen any time soon.

so do you reckon the game will launched locked to 30fps? i cant remember seeing a pc game review well in the last 5 years where it was hardlocked to 30fps.

Total biscuit among others will have a field day with that if so.
1st thing i did when i bought darksouls was get the DSfix mod, and it transformed the game.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Sorry, but that is by far the most absurd claim I have read today. And if you know something I dont, feel free to collect a Nobel prize and a couple billion dollars.

ok poorly written point... but within the bounds of a videogame, an npc can do everything a player can do if programmed correctly. now, the small print....... probably not as good at direct combat against another player, true, but then if that were something i *really* cared about i would be playing with other players and not looking for npcs.

 

[Ian Skippy]

ok poorly written point... but within the bounds of a videogame, an npc can do everything a player can do if programmed correctly. now, the small print....... probably not as good at direct combat against another player, true, but then if that were something i *really* cared about i would be playing with other players and not looking for npcs.

Yes, 'when programmed correctly'. And we can fly to the other side of the galaxy if NASA would just 'build ships correctly'. You forget the tiny bit about us not being able to do it, or even come close. Humans can also communicate creatively, or find new business strategies not programmed into NPCs, or do anything else in a more dynamic and creative way. NPCs are a shallow husk of humans in pretty much every conceivable way, except when massive on-rails scripting takes place. And the more freedom exist in a game, and the more it becomes open-world, the more obvious the difference becomes. Thats why 99% of NPCs in Skryim, the Witcher or any such game is immediately recognizable as a flat, cardboard, non-interesting NPC, rather than something resembling an actual human.

We're decades away from 'correctly programmed' NPCs.

 

[Zyll Goliat]

i would have agreed with you 6 months ago... but with ASW it IS possible to get good VR at a vsynced 45fps. now...... in all honesty i dunno if anyone has ever designed a game designed on the assumption that it was going to be using ASW 100% of the time............... and certainly ASW works better for some games than others (and elite is not a shining example) but assetto corsa works really well with it)

so, now, I reckon so long as a vsynced 45fps is possible once it is fully optimised - and if it isnt that is kind of shameful for a pc game - so long as CIG cut all the carp that is currently in the 2D game from any VR mode, if there is a will do do it, i can only hope they manage it, despite clearly not really caring about VR up until now.

Thats still 45x2=90Fps and what resolution we talking about?But as I said it´s not impossible just don´t look doable and honestly with all the rest of the problems that SC is facing atm that just can´t be one of the CIG priority........they need to FIX and put in a working condition so many things before VR....wich means that this our conversation is totally irrelevant&worthless as we probably ain´t gonna see VR anytime soon in SC........

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Thats still 45x2=90Fps and what resolution we talking about?But as I said it´s not impossible just don´t look doable and honestly with all the rest of the problems that SC is facing atm that just can´t be one of the CIG priority........they need to FIX and put in a working condition so many things before VR thats almost making this our conversation totally irrelevant........

its not 45x2 it does not work like that. (afaik)
iirc it would be closer to rendering at a steady 45fps at a resolution of 1.4 or 1.5 times the over all resolution of the rift - so around 2700x1600.

its only in unity right now, but apparently other engines will pick it up soon, but there is a new gpu saving short cut released from oculus recently
stereo shading reprojection when when turns on apparently gives a 20% saving in gpu load.

https://developer.oculus.com/blog/introducing-stereo-shading-reprojection-for-unity/


PS everything on this board is totally irrelevant - at least as pertaining to star citizen.... its not like CIG will be following the elite dangerous forum when they have their own official one with plenty of ideas for them to dip into ... we are just shooting the breeze to pass the time, its all good imo.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Yes, 'when programmed correctly'. And we can fly to the other side of the galaxy if NASA would just 'build ships correctly'. You forget the tiny bit about us not being able to do it, or even come close. Humans can also communicate creatively, or find new business strategies not programmed into NPCs, or do anything else in a more dynamic and creative way. NPCs are a shallow husk of humans in pretty much every conceivable way, except when massive on-rails scripting takes place. And the more freedom exist in a game, and the more it becomes open-world, the more obvious the difference becomes. Thats why 99% of NPCs in Skryim, the Witcher or any such game is immediately recognizable as a flat, cardboard, non-interesting NPC, rather than something resembling an actual human.

We're decades away from 'correctly programmed' NPCs.

you are looking big picture... i am talking within the confines of a videogame.
I was playing with npcs in videogames decades ago and they did just fine, and none of them deliberately team killed me, or looked for exploits in the game to troll me. I am not talking about skynet dude, just an npc wingmate, a couple of crew in my ship and someone to give me missions and to build a relationship with .***

***no not that kind of relationship you dirty old man

 

[Zyll Goliat]

its not 45x2 it does not work like that. (afaik)
iirc it would be closer to rendering at a steady 45fps at a resolution of 1.4 or 1.5 times the over all resolution of the rift - so around 2700x1600.

its only in unity right now, but apparently other engines will pick it up soon, but there is a new gpu saving short cut released from oculus recently
stereo shading reprojection when when turns on apparently gives a 20% saving in gpu load.

https://developer.oculus.com/blog/introducing-stereo-shading-reprojection-for-unity/


PS everything on this board is totally irrelevant - at least as pertaining to star citizen.... its not like CIG will be following the elite dangerous forum when they have their own official one with plenty of ideas for them to dip into ... we are just shooting the breeze to pass the time, its all good imo.

Ohh...Back to the future talk again .....in that case sure SC will be played in VR on 16K resolution with 1000 of players in the same instance on the specially designed Roberts mashed servers with NO lags and glitches ALL DAY/NIGHT LONG!!!

 

[Soliluna]

A single player Star citizen with full solo rpg mode possibly able to invite friends in like say, payday 2... hell yes i would buy it......... but I realise i am a dying breed of gamer who covets the single player game and it is not nore ever will be SC, i just hope there are enough crumbs in SC for me to enjoy the game.

I used to love single player games - until AI stopped getting better. Graphics improved and became amazing but AI has floundered making the experiences pretty weak.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Back to the future talk again .....in that case sure SC will be played in VR on 16K resolution with 1000 of players in the same instance on the Roberts mashed servers with NO lags and glitches ALL DAY/NIGHT LONG!!!

that went over my head!. the last 2 oculus features (ASW and ATW) made it into the oculus software very quickly and games soon make much use of it.

Given SC is not out yet or any time soon, and i doubt this feature will be one which requires major rewrites - not if oculus want it to be supported - i am not sure what the problem is in mentioning it.

unless you meant something else.

 

[Asp Explorer]

Ohh...Back to the future talk again .....in that case sure SC will be played in VR on 16K resolution with 1000 of players in the same instance on the specially designed Roberts mashed servers with NO lags and glitches ALL DAY/NIGHT LONG!!!

Indeed it will - when the fibre reaches the rack at CIG

 

[Snarfbuckle]

The sad thing is, those creating Star Citizen are doing the best they can with what they have - but every five minutes they get interrupted by someone waving their hands about and bellowing "Immersion! Fidelity!" and they have to back to the very beginning again

well, you are not wrong.

At least Erin should be able to keep his brother in check so they can at least get SQ42 out the door.