I hate to break it to you but space travel isn't like the movies either.
What'd be so wrong with applying "Hollywood Piracy" to ED, even if it's not realistic?
Criminal Gameplay needs to be made Viable and Meaningful
- Thread starter Kethriss
- Start date
I hate to break it to you but space travel isn't like the movies either.
What'd be so wrong with applying "Hollywood Piracy" to ED, even if it's not realistic?
Totally agree with you.
My point is, basically, whether or not it'd be worth doing.
By way of metaphor, it's kind of like looking at gun violence in a place like Chicago and saying "Hey, you know what'd really help? We should build a heap of municipal gun clubs and shooting ranges so all those gang members and drug dealers have somewhere to go and shoot guns legally instead of shooting each other on the streets"
It's just not going to work, is it?
Gang members and drug dealers don't want to shoot guns legally.
They want to shoot guns to instill fear into the local community, to do harm to their rivals and to assert their own dominance over others.
Same thing MIGHT apply in ED.
If the people acting in a criminal manner in-game are doing it for role-playing reasons then fair enough.
In that case, sure, they're going to embrace any additional content which supports that play style.
If, OTOH, they're just antisocial oddballs who get their jollies by irritating other players, FDev are likely to be wasting their time creating content which they won't use.
Only FDev have access to the sort of statistics which might reveal just how much PvP is done for BGS/PP/RP reasons and how much of it is just mindless violence but if they don't implement any features to enhance criminal gameplay it's probably safe to assume it's because they don't think it's worthwhile.
Just like I thought, you misinterpreted his post. I don't think he has a good argument, but he isn't saying that killing someone in real life is the same like killing someone in ED. Not at all. He comes up with a justification to kill someone and it's the justification he compares, not the actual action.Firstly, i hate you for making me scour the forum looking for the past 30 mins
Page 8 of "In open play, is killing innocent CMDRs Fair? thread there is an example. Not as bad as the others, but even making the comparison is dumb.
When i get home i'll find the other 2 by checking my history. Not that i have to prove this stuff btw, it seems people on here are fully aware it happens.
So you found twenty comments on a game that is played by a few hundred thousands of players. I can not tell if these comments are made by PvE or PvP players and if they are entirely serious. I admit that "nobody" was the wrong word though
If you listen closely, you can actually hear babelfisch moving the goalposts.
I would surely love smuggling to feel like smuggling. Currently smuggling is trading with lower profit margins. Fines are no deterrent, as I can completely ignore them (my first visit to the broker I had a huge countless list of unpaid fines I no longer remembered at all) and for some reason even after being scanned by the police I can still dock and sell my illegal stuff (whaaaaat?!).
Smuggling illegal stuff shoudl yield higher profit margins than legal trade, but it should also be a risky business, and more importantly, it should have tension.
- Illegal goods should sell for higher profit than average market price, not lower profit. After all, the stuff is illegal, people who want the stuff must be willing to pay above value for it. THis is the real reason why smuggling exists at all.
- Boosting while approaching a station should call the attention of the station police which would proceed full-speed in my direction to scan me asap. This would prevent boost-forcing into the station as means to make danger of scanning disappear.
- Getting caught should land me a large fine, AND the police should command me to release the illegal goods, under penalty of getting a bounty and be fired upon. If I still insisted on docking after being scanned, the illegal goods should be apprehended.
- If I got caught again while already having a smuggling fine with the station's faction, the fine should turn into a bounty and the authorities would open fire.
Smuggling illegal stuff shoudl yield higher profit margins than legal trade, but it should also be a risky business, and more importantly, it should have tension.
- Illegal goods should sell for higher profit than average market price, not lower profit. After all, the stuff is illegal, people who want the stuff must be willing to pay above value for it. THis is the real reason why smuggling exists at all.
- Boosting while approaching a station should call the attention of the station police which would proceed full-speed in my direction to scan me asap. This would prevent boost-forcing into the station as means to make danger of scanning disappear.
- Getting caught should land me a large fine, AND the police should command me to release the illegal goods, under penalty of getting a bounty and be fired upon. If I still insisted on docking after being scanned, the illegal goods should be apprehended.
- If I got caught again while already having a smuggling fine with the station's faction, the fine should turn into a bounty and the authorities would open fire.
Last edited:
It's the system that is going to also work for hundreds of systems and thousands of planets.
400 Billion systems means absolutely nothing when all of the meaningful content aside from pretty pictures is restricted to a few thousands systems all right next to eachother. Adding a few major criminal organizations that are named and improved and more interactive versions of minor factions to scattered anarchy systems and having missions like we already have except to go out in to neighboring systems and commit crimes such as piracy, sabotage, murder, smuggling and more with various benefits to the people who get high reputation with these syndicates. And no, it wouldn't be impossible to find somebody. Okay you flew to a random system outside the bubble 1kly out. Now what? You can't be found but you also can't do anything. Players participating in this manner of gameplay will be in the anarchy systems and government systems surrounding the base system of the syndicate they support. Now your 400 Billion systems has been reduced to a dozen, if that, and when you factor in the inevitable "most profitable system" that will arise, now you have 2. The home system, and the system that they can make the most money/rep out of.
And that is exactly why any PvP interactions/systems born of this should be Open Play only, and even if they weren't, this is a PvE system as well as a PvP one. Okay so somebody is doing this in solo. They are still being rewarded with meaningful gameplay behind being a pirate or hitman and the like. And even if somebody was just PvPing this system and mode switched like you described...so what? They still have to attack other players, they still have to show up in Open Play at some point, and you deeply underestimate how fast people can traverse the bubble to hunt somebody down.
And no, we shouldn't. Eve and Star Citizen are wildly successful and there's a reason behind that. Ignoring what other games do right and continuing to produce meaningless content and killing off play styles will only result in Elite's downfall.
Did you even read what I said?
People ALREADY put up with the consequences or find work arounds for them. The people who whine are the hapless saps getting ganked in open play because the people who want a criminal playstyle have no meaningful content and are bored out of their minds, so they resort to making their own meaning: farming for forum salt.
We already have the consequences, there's no reason to put up with them. Piracy is dead in all manner but RP. Smuggling is just trading with a bounty. Murder gets you cussed out. Sabotage/Fear campaigns are non existent. Kumo Crew has been dead last since PP went live. All because all of these actions have no meaning and pure consequences with nothing to counteract that.
Criminal activities in games should be high risk high reward. You are tempted to accept the consequences and risk losing nearly everything because the rewards and the rush from being a criminal are worth it to you. If you make the potential rewards worth the risk, now you get a lot of players who previously just ganked sidewinders hanging out in the same few anarchy systems running missions nearby, you get actual meaningful PvP with skilled PvPers coming to these systems to kill the criminal players with then gives the PvPers across the board meaningful interactions with other PvPers. It won't eliminate random ganks, but it won't be as common, and if it does happen you're probably near a major criminal system which is your fault for getting that close.
It doesn't matter how big the consequences are if the potential rewards make it worth it for people to risk.
And no, the other thread you're talking about was people throwing a tantrum about getting ganked in Open Play and saying they never consented to PvP interactions. My arguments were and still are "Whining about PvP in Open Play is like signing on to a World of Warcraft PvP server, running to the enemy faction's home city, and then whining in the forums about how unfair it is that you got killed by another player". If you don't want PvP, Solo and Mobius are right there for you. I don't see how that can be some big controversial opinion. If you don't want to engage in PvP, then don't play in the mode that allows open PvP.
And that's as wrong now as it was when you first suggested if because...
...and try the understand this...
Other people in ED are not an enemy faction.
HTH. [up]
Which really puts a different perspective on your OP.
I have seen numerous posts on here, let alone reddit, where players have been compared to real-life terrorists, called psychopaths and on a few occasions conflated with rapists for their desire to pvp. I had a lengthy and ultimately reasonable discussion with someone via PM after one of the comments because as someone who has two friends that have been on the receiving end of that particular act, I was sufficiently incensed by it to contact him.
It absolutely 100% does happen and it's indefensible regardless of how much provocation someone feels they were under. Moderating it after the fact doesn't change the fact that it happened.
Regarding your last line I thought you just called out people for ridiculous hyperbole, so why then say 'Anyway, if your or the OPs claim is that everybody who doesn't play PvP calls everybody who does a ' when clearly nobody said that at all?
Sorry if you're feeling singled out after that but I can't just sit here, read that and not comment on it. I agree with you that any debate or discussion about this needs to be done in an intellectually honest and adult way, so let's at least set an example eh?
Last edited:
To be fair, in my experience any such comparisons are usually applied in context of providing analogies for in-game actions rather than suggesting any player is comparable to terrorists or rapists as a result of their actions.
My OP calls for meaning and viability be added to criminal gameplay which has more PvE elements than it does PvP.
that aside.
i want you to tell me, in detail, why what i said is wrong.
open play allows PvP, if you dont want to be exposed to PvP you can play in Solo or Mobius. YOU HAVE OPTIONS. YOU DONT HAVE TO CONTINUE TO PLAY IN A MODE THAT ALLOWS GAMEPLAY YOU WANT NOTHING TO DO WITH.
tell me, right now, why saying that if you dont want to deal with pvp, to stay out of the pvp enabled mode is an issue.
please. i can not fathom the logic of the people who willingly continue to stay in open play and whine about pvp when they could easily go to a different mode and eliminate all their earthly problems.
Perhaps we should start with the basics?
Do you think the ONLY reason to play in Open is to participate in PvP?
no, but PvP is a part of Open Play, and a major one at that.
if you dont want anything to do with PvP, then go play on Mobius which offers everything open does but without the PvP. Theres no excuse to remain in Open if you are that against PvP.
Babel and his hobby to derails and flame topics ... good lord you're one toxic person.
Great.
So you acknowledge that PvP isn't the only reason to play in Open.
That being the case, why would you want people who don't share your opinions of PvP to forego all the things they use Open for?
That seems like advice rooted in nothing more than spite if I'm honest.
Firstly, I disagree about PvP being a "major" part of anything.
Sure, it's something that has immediate consequences for those involved in it but that's about the limit of it.
As somebody pointed out recently, if FDev created an official PvE mode, I suspect Open would quickly become about as popular as a fart in a lift.
Which is probably why they're reluctant to do so.
Secondly you're back to "If you don't agree with what I want, you need to change".
It might make for a more thoughtful discussion if you could move beyond that, somehow.
I agree that currently, criminal occupations aren't very rewarding and that it should be addressed. Piracy should be more rewarding than some other, more legal form of credit acquisition because of the increase in incurred risk.
However, this brings about another potential issue to be addressed. If criminal activity actually becomes high risk/reward, then it becomes the default endgame. Do we as a community even really want a true endgame? As for player interaction, this could end up with top players being pushed into piracy, and leaving new players more or less defenseless. I'm not saying that this is a huge problem, or that it makes me not want a beefier criminal element in the game. What I'm saying is that this is a facet of the debate that deserves attention.
However, this brings about another potential issue to be addressed. If criminal activity actually becomes high risk/reward, then it becomes the default endgame. Do we as a community even really want a true endgame? As for player interaction, this could end up with top players being pushed into piracy, and leaving new players more or less defenseless. I'm not saying that this is a huge problem, or that it makes me not want a beefier criminal element in the game. What I'm saying is that this is a facet of the debate that deserves attention.
Didn't read the whole thread but the first poster got it one as it stands.
I do a little pve piracy from time to time, but finding the right ship with the right cargo is... well it's not good so profits vs cost of limpets/ammo are non existent some runs.
Couple of changes that would make it way better imo
Have cargo ships in high security systems be pretty much guaranteed to have high value cargo and obviously scale for variables such as economy, security and BGS.
Have black market profits in Anarchies be far greater for high value stolen goods and make it properly risky to run the gauntlet to station. Ala bounty hunters and other pirates who want the haul.
I do a little pve piracy from time to time, but finding the right ship with the right cargo is... well it's not good so profits vs cost of limpets/ammo are non existent some runs.
Couple of changes that would make it way better imo
Have cargo ships in high security systems be pretty much guaranteed to have high value cargo and obviously scale for variables such as economy, security and BGS.
Have black market profits in Anarchies be far greater for high value stolen goods and make it properly risky to run the gauntlet to station. Ala bounty hunters and other pirates who want the haul.