Criminal Gameplay needs to be made Viable and Meaningful

[StiTch]

I absolutely agree that it is unacceptable, it should get reported and moderated. But it's not unique to ED and PvP. You can get death threats for saying that someone isn't your favourited band on YouTube or for combat logging...

Yeah, this is true of the internet. I'd actually believe it to be the end of the world if I could look at a single respectably populated comments section of a YT vid and not see someone slagging the band's mother's dog off.

Ya can't deny there isn't a disproportionate level of stigmatism towards PvP here though. Ultimately, I don't think anyone would care - what another player thinks of me amounts to, as Un1k0rn perfectly sums up, nothing more than armchair psychology - but it would be nice to think we could get some objective discussion going on here where the devs are actually looking for feedback and inspiration.

 

[Kethriss]

Manifest scanners tell you exactly what's inside a ship before you blow the cargo hatch off. I've found gold, palladium and low temp diamonds in holds of pirated ships.

Yup and lucrative too. Best payout for me in my trade stats is 660,000+ profit on one rares smuggling trip.

PvP'ers are not 'MurderHobos'. Some players use PvP as an excuse for murdering clean CMDR's without reason. Same with piracy. There's bad politicians, there's bad lawyers, there's bad cops and there's bad players.

The Beta is less than a day old. Why not reserve your opinion until you actually see the C&P system in operation? I assume you're not part of the Beta at this point as this is posted in DD and not the Beta forums. So...

the effort and time required to find a good haul from piracy still has absolutely no benefit and is the least profitable means of play in the game in terms of credits per hour

660k is pocket change.

i didnt say pvpers were murder hobos. i said murder hobos were murder hobos.

i am in the beta, paid for my access when i bought horizons, but i posted this here because it has absolutely nothing to do with the new C&P system. it has to do with the fact that playing a criminal in this game has no meaning, is harshly punished, and has no rewards for taking the risks.

i came here to post this thread because i realized that star citizens 2.6 alpha with a placeholder name for crime notoriety and 2 things to do as a criminal has more depth an meaning to it than Elite's entire crime system accross thousands of systems and i think that is absolutely pathetic on Elite's part. i want depth, meaning, actual CONTENT that supports people who want to play an actual criminal in a space sim like you would a thief in Elder Scrolls or a Dark Side character in a KOTOR game.

 

[StiTch]

http://i.imgur.com/vA98LYG.jpg

Wow, that's one respectable salt trophy there. Should get that bad boy wall mounted.

 

[Ian Skippy]

i came here to post this thread because i realized that star citizens 2.6 alpha with a placeholder name for crime notoriety and 2 things to do as a criminal has more depth an meaning to it than Elite's entire crime system accross thousands of systems and i think that is absolutely pathetic on Elite's part. i want depth, meaning, actual CONTENT that supports people who want to play an actual criminal in a space sim like you would a thief in Elder Scrolls or a Dark Side character in a KOTOR game.

Care to elaborate a bit more about the deeply rewarding criminal gameplay in SC? Or do you just refer to 'shoot at someone and you must live in Space-Somalia'?

Beyond that all was already said by GreyAreaUK:

I've been over this before but it's worth writing down again. My thoughts are:

Anarchy, Low-Sec, Medium Sec and High Sec should actually mean something. Currently they don't. This is where I'm hoping the C&P&K system will come in.

Players that play as Black Hats should be forced into ever lower security states due to the skill and persistence of the Security Forces in the higher security systems, ie the forces in a High Sec should be pretty damn lethal, Medium Sec less so, Low Sec not very effective (and possibly corrupt) down to Anarchies where there shouldn't be any.

So: what we now have (given the above) is that players who like to pirate (or just out and out shoot) other players are now better concentrated in Low Sec systems. But there needs to be a reason for White Hat players (principally traders) to go to those systems. To that end there need to be missions to transport goods that have a value beyond the mission payout to these systems. I'm thinking about things like low temp diamonds, painite etc. Stuff a successful pirate can later sell and still be earning a living. As it stands I can be paid 300,000Cr for transporting 30 units of tea, but those same 30 units would fetch a miniscule fraction of that value if simply sold as goods.

Pirates need goods and players to pirate. Players need reasons to risk being pirated. Risk/reward need to be equal no matter the colour of your hat. Everyone wins.

 

[GreyAreaUK]

Ya can't deny there isn't a disproportionate level of stigmatism towards PvP here though.

To be honest I see roughly equal amounts from both sides of the PvP/PvE communities*. The more hardcore elements of both are never going to see eye to eye.




* As a basically non-PvP'er I accept that this may be observational bias.

 

[WindWpn]

I was ganked last night, killed in seconds near Wyrd by a wing CMDRs flying an FDL and Clipper against my sole Python. No big deal (though curious weapon set to do such immediate damage which included what sounded like lots of system failures prior to even shield drop?!)... but a thought popped into my mind.

What if I could hire NPC wing flying ships I engineered? Basically, if I fly primarily as a hauler, could my combat build or perhaps a few that I engineered myself be flown by NPC hirelings? Basically in the scenario last night, I would have been interdicted, but when dropped into normal space, I would have had my NPC wing flying the combat builds I designed (perhaps say... 3 heavily engineered combat Vultures). This would have taken some of the heat perhaps off my ship, and I could have escaped or joined fight, if felt odds on my side. If escaped, cool, and if my ships piloted by hired NPCs was lost, there would be a minimal or perhaps no rebuy cost. aka, only rebuy if the interdictor destroyed ship I was flying.

All in all, outside of known tactics to minimize destruction if ganked (I unfortunately did not execute those from the start of the engagement), perhaps unwanted PvP may be more engaging if you had a wing of ships (you engineered) piloted by NPCs you hired (basically use the current hiring system).

Last night, perhaps would have enjoyed the fight if I thought I had a chance or at least some help to take heat off focus on my ship.

Guess only drawback would be jump range... ie if you have a combat focused wing protecting you, your jump range would be limited to the worst jump range of your NPC wing mates.

though on second thought.... who cares. last night, simply take the rebuy and start again. no big deal.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

I've always advocated Criminal Career Paths.
Nothing that is said on reddit is worth the pixels that comprise it.
Star Citizen aka Call of Space Duty is probably going to perish soon.
Elite should stay like Elite, and not try to be Those Other Games.

Anybody else fill their Bingo card?

But I do advocate a full-blown Criminal Career Path, and I've posted this more than a few times. Try the Search Function, it sort of works.

 

[StiTch]

To be honest I see roughly equal amounts from both sides of the PvP/PvE communities*. The more hardcore elements of both are never going to see eye to eye.

Sorry, but that's definitely the bias speaking I can't think of a single place here you could just mention PvE in response to a thread and expect at least a couple of complaints that "no-one cares about your playstyle".

Honestly, I couldn't care less for any personal insult. I do want to see this game have less bubble wrap layered on in response to hysteria, though.

As OP suggests...criminals should get to blaze their own trail, too.

 

[Kethriss]

Care to elaborate a bit more about the deeply rewarding criminal gameplay in SC? Or do you just refer to 'shoot at someone and you must live in Space-Somalia'?

Beyond that all was already said by GreyAreaUK:

you commit a crime in star citizen and you get kicked out of the main station and have to dock on a dangerous pirate station that has its own theme, shops, and atmosphere.
you then get missions to go commit more crimes, and other players get missions to come stop you.
if you commit too many crimes, you become a public enemy and every other olayer can see your location and will get rewarded for killing you.

those three mechanics alone: provide risk/reward gameplay, make you feel like youre actually some outlaw walking the razor's edge, encourage more criminal gameplay through missions, and encourage meaningful PvP between criminals and law abiding players, as well as give career criminals notoriety and the rush if being hunted by the law.

in Elite, you commit a crime, you get a bounty you pay when you die. cops might shoot at you.

theres absolutely no meaning to it, and no gameplay to back it up. theres no reason to commit a crime because in terms of gameplay its a waste of time and money and in terms of player enjoyment the only thing worth doing is murdering random players to mine salt.

 

[Kethriss]

I've always advocated Criminal Career Paths.
Nothing that is said on reddit is worth the pixels that comprise it.
Star Citizen aka Call of Space Duty is probably going to perish soon.
Elite should stay like Elite, and not try to be Those Other Games.

Anybody else fill their Bingo card?

But I do advocate a full-blown Criminal Career Path, and I've posted this more than a few times. Try the Search Function, it sort of works.

not space call of duty at all, i used to be a SC naysayer, then i saw what 3.0 was going to bring, and thats why im actively advocating for Elite to bring out more meaningful and deep content for the systems its negelecting. 3.0 alone already has the tools to start siphoning off the content starved people in Elite's playerbase. i dont want to see elite die. i want it to persist and be successful and i want a healthy rivalry between Star Citizen and Elite to push both games to improve. If Elite continues like it has been, that will never happen. Its going to keep on starving people of meaningful content until all thats left is the people who like using it as a glorified screen saver and everybody else has left to play SC or whatever else is coming out.

hell, NO MANS SKY has a bigger steam playerbase right now than Elite does.

 

[Tuub t Tute]

<snip>... what 3.0 was going to bring, a...3.0 alone already has the tools to start siphoning off the content starved people in Elite's playerbase. ... play SC or whatever else is coming out.

SC 3.0 currently has no release schedule, no agreed content and is MIA. When their good ideas become playable, we can revisit this topic, perhaps?

 

[Muetdhiver]

you commit a crime in star citizen and you get kicked out of the main station and have to dock on a dangerous pirate station that has its own theme, shops, and atmosphere.
you then get missions to go commit more crimes, and other players get missions to come stop you.
if you commit too many crimes, you become a public enemy and every other olayer can see your location and will get rewarded for killing you.

those three mechanics alone: provide risk/reward gameplay, make you feel like youre actually some outlaw walking the razor's edge, encourage more criminal gameplay through missions, and encourage meaningful PvP between criminals and law abiding players, as well as give career criminals notoriety and the rush if being hunted by the law.

This+1.

Such content / mechanics providing 1) risk/reward 2) natural BH/Piracy PvP support and 3) context/meaningfull crime career is exeactly what ED badly needs.

playing Murderhobos does not constitute a meaningfull ciminal carrer path lol. Nor are the piracy mechanics of ED...

An update focused on Crime carrer and intergrating meaningfull PvP BH/piracy while curbing murderhobos/gank trolls is badly needed.
2.4 falls way short on what needs to be delivered in that regard.

 

[GreyAreaUK]

2.4 falls way short on what needs to be delivered in that regard.

In fairness though, 2.4 wasn't intended to be. 2.4 is essentially Thargoid content. After that (further 2.x branches or 3.x) are going to be about developing the core internals, fleshing out the career paths, and introducing a Crime/Punishment/Karma system.

 

[sb413197]

Totally TOTALLY agree here. If there were legit PVP gameplay, I for one would probably NEVER attack an "innocent" outside of that. Not that I spend all my time attacking innocents currently but it would provide an outlet for that PVP itch.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

you commit a crime in star citizen and you get kicked out of the main station and have to dock on a dangerous pirate station that has its own theme, shops, and atmosphere.
you then get missions to go commit more crimes, and other players get missions to come stop you.
if you commit too many crimes, you become a public enemy and every other olayer can see your location and will get rewarded for killing you.

those three mechanics alone: provide risk/reward gameplay, make you feel like youre actually some outlaw walking the razor's edge, encourage more criminal gameplay through missions, and encourage meaningful PvP between criminals and law abiding players, as well as give career criminals notoriety and the rush if being hunted by the law.

in Elite, you commit a crime, you get a bounty you pay when you die. cops might shoot at you.

theres absolutely no meaning to it, and no gameplay to back it up. theres no reason to commit a crime because in terms of gameplay its a waste of time and money and in terms of player enjoyment the only thing worth doing is murdering random players to mine salt.

That model works for Star Citizen, with its one system and one planet.

Elite has 400,000,000 systems and quite a few more planets, moons, asteroid fields and other places to hide out. It's possible to hide yourself anywhere in the galaxy, and the odds of someone actually finding you reach infinitesimal. Then add to that Elite has 3 modes of game play - Open, Private and Solo. A person could easily commit all manner of heinous acts in Open, then switch over to a Private Group or Solo mode to evade those looking for them, only to reappear, at a station, in Open, hundreds of lightyears away, commit more heinous acts, rinse and repeat, and there's nothing to be done about this.

So let's just throw Star Citizen and Eve and everything else right out the window and talk about Elite.

 

[ALGOMATIC]

That model works for Star Citizen, with its one system and one planet.

Elite has 400,000,000 systems and quite a few more planets, moons, asteroid fields and other places to hide out. It's possible to hide yourself anywhere in the galaxy, and the odds of someone actually finding you reach infinitesimal. Then add to that Elite has 3 modes of game play - Open, Private and Solo. A person could easily commit all manner of heinous acts in Open, then switch over to a Private Group or Solo mode to evade those looking for them, only to reappear, at a station, in Open, hundreds of lightyears away, commit more heinous acts, rinse and repeat, and there's nothing to be done about this.

So let's just throw Star Citizen and Eve and everything else right out the window and talk about Elite.

And that is one of the core problems with this game's design, safety modes to avoid dangers after being a criminal in open.

 

[Stealthie]

It sounds like a terrific idea.

Attempt to introduce meaningful consequences for criminal behaviour, however, and you'll get nothing but bleating about how unfair it is, how it punishes people for doing things the game allows, how anything the game allows should be entirely acceptable, how people will just find ways around any consequences intended, how anybody who doesn't want pew-pew should lock themselves in the cupboard of Solo and how anybody who thinks differently is just a carebear.

In fact, I'm pretty sure those were all arguments used by the OP to defend criminal behaviour in another thread less than 48 hours ago.

And if you're not going to accept the bad stuff, I doubt FDev are going to be willing to spend much time developing the good stuff.

 

[stripealipe]

This wouldn't be the case with a karma system linked in with system security levels. If you've been a bad boy, it wouldn't matter if you're in solo or open, you'd still have no docking privileges in certain systems and eventually you'd be locking yourself out of a lot of the galaxy, certainly those parts that are frequented by players. Eventually, high sec systems truly would be fairly safe for n00bs, traders and the like, and no doubt low sec and anarchy systems would end up being quite the nasty places that always should have been. And from all of that, with a good sprinkling of relevant missions for both sides of the coin, you'd no doubt end up with some much needed dynamics and emergent gameplay, finally.. maybe...

 

[AveCandido]

It is said that piracy in Elite Dangerous should be more beneficial ......... but in real life if we talk about piracy from the 14th to 18th centuries pirates did not have those treasures of the movies. They survived in difficult conditions and very few pirates became rich, not to be confused with Hollywood cinema. That is only cinema.

They were very persecuted and hanged at the slightest possibility, so the pirate life was a life of desperate people or people fleeing their land for just or unjust causes.

I am in favor of creating KARMA for pirates not to feel safe in non-anarchic systems.

But also be fun that pirate role inside Elite Dangerous

 

[Jukelo]

It is said that piracy in Elite Dangerous should be more beneficial ......... but in real life if we talk about piracy from the 14th to 18th centuries pirates did not have those treasures of the movies. They survived in difficult conditions and very few pirates became rich, not to be confused with Hollywood cinema. That is only cinema.

And in real life truck drivers don't make millions, bounty hunters have to work for their pay and not just camp a RES, and historical explorers were prospectors hired by major powers who risked storms and diseases to discover new lands and new people to subjugate instead of mere tourists.
Obviously if the game promotes a game style that game style should be on equal footing with the rest.