The Difference Between PvP and "Griefing"

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Quite; however this won't solve the fundamental situation that the game engages players that have diametrically opposed ideals, even if they fundamentally agree on many other terms. Assuming the developer can, essentially, solve the problem, ignores that it's not actually solvable.

Braben has said, really, quite a number of things he would like. However, we cannot always have what we want. This, ostensibly is the reason it's not solvable. Improvable? Certainly. Most assuredly. Solvable? Nope. This is the curse of game development. There are many solutions, however there is no one solution.

But there is no denying there is a problem with balancing. Its not like I am the only one asking for it.

The hotel california thread was here long before I was.

I thought I had great Idea's, come to find out, its the same thing people have been saying this whole time.

Not my problem people stop playing because of it. We want to play the game. They have enabled PVP in this game, or player interaction. They have given people the tools to avoid it. And yet they still complain. Why? For what purpose?

Other than they are mad that PVP exists in this game. So many people are complaining about this stuff from a private group. They dont see the balancing issues others see when they make it to late game. And yes like it or not right now late game is PVP. And no its not just for me.

People can get in a sidewinder from day 1 and go across the galaxy. People can run trade or basic missions from day one. Becoming Elite is nothing more than a gold star saying you spent this much time doing x activity.

In a linear scale of progression, PVP is the end game. With what engineers offered what do they expect you to do? Go back to the same rez site you started in just to kill ships 2% faster? Like come on.

Now I am totally aware that every ones end game could be different. Its a sandbox after all. But if you go off the way this game progresses and the time it takes to be able to PVP. Or those guys that the abilities to PVP took a lot longer than ANY OTHER one of those tasks.

Furthermore, PVPers are the best PVEers in this game. We have to find and grind every material.

As far as the BGS goes. Really no one cares about it. Look at the SDC station, they could care less if it gets bombed or some PVE'ers go to war with them. Honestly no one really cares. However, me and many others would like to participate in it. But there is no use since its unbalanced and based off time.

Time is a major problem right now as far as balancing goes. It takes too much time for a person to learn about Open play. It takes too much time to learn how to defend yourself. A lot of people that are Elite in Private groups get their big bad Vette. And say, OK GRIEFERS IM COMING FOR YOU NOW!. And they die 30 seconds after clicking open at a CG.

By the way some dude really made a post about that, https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/343413-The-last-thing-you-see-before-you-rebuy

There is a massive learning curve for open play. Its certainly not equal. And all anyone is asking for. Including the PVPers is to give people the chance to learn. There are guys that want to be out there. But the dont have the time. Although that same guy can play something like world of warcraft, or League of Legends and progress just fine. Because hes rewarded with the actions of his time.

Again, we already have the advantage. And we are asking Fdev to take the advantage away from PVPers and level the playing field so others can do it if they choose to. Right now that part of the community is so small is because only people with the time on their side can participate in it.

To prove this point. EVEN MOBIUS PVPD before Engineers. People enjoyed the PVP in this game. Now its a big mess.

In Elite Dangerous you simply just spend the time. And hope RNG is on your side. The more time you have, the more RNG Slot machines you get to play. The more powerful you'll be.

So yes, there is a huge balance issue here. And I dont care what solution they go with. But as soon as the fix it. There will be less whining about "griefers". And more people standing up for their-selves. Again, mobius isint that big because people just want to enjoy PVE content. Not everyone went there for that. Tons of people went there because of the imbalances of open. And how few people can effect others from the top down. Its not a level playing field.

 

[thirstyfish]

But there is no denying there is a problem with balancing. Its not like I am the only one asking for it.

The hotel california thread was here long before I was.

I thought I had great Idea's, come to find out, its the same thing people have been saying this whole time.

Not my problem people stop playing because of it. We want to play the game. They have enabled PVP in this game, or player interaction. They have given people the tools to avoid it. And yet they still complain. Why? For what purpose?

Other than they are mad that PVP exists in this game. So many people are complaining about this stuff from a private group. They dont see the balancing issues others see when they make it to late game. And yes like it or not right now late game is PVP. And no its not just for me.

People can get in a sidewinder from day 1 and go across the galaxy. People can run trade or basic missions from day one. Becoming Elite is nothing more than a gold star saying you spent this much time doing x activity.

In a linear scale of progression, PVP is the end game. With what engineers offered what do they expect you to do? Go back to the same rez site you started in just to kill ships 2% faster? Like come on.

Now I am totally aware that every ones end game could be different. Its a sandbox after all. But if you go off the way this game progresses and the time it takes to be able to PVP. Or those guys that the abilities to PVP took a lot longer than ANY OTHER one of those tasks.

Furthermore, PVPers are the best PVEers in this game. We have to find and grind every material.

As far as the BGS goes. Really no one cares about it. Look at the SDC station, they could care less if it gets bombed or some PVE'ers go to war with them. Honestly no one really cares. However, me and many others would like to participate in it. But there is no use since its unbalanced and based off time.

Time is a major problem right now as far as balancing goes. It takes too much time for a person to learn about Open play. It takes too much time to learn how to defend yourself. A lot of people that are Elite in Private groups get their big bad Vette. And say, OK GRIEFERS IM COMING FOR YOU NOW!. And they die 30 seconds after clicking open at a CG.

By the way some dude really made a post about that, https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/343413-The-last-thing-you-see-before-you-rebuy

There is a massive learning curve for open play. Its certainly not equal. And all anyone is asking for. Including the PVPers is to give people the chance to learn. There are guys that want to be out there. But the dont have the time. Although that same guy can play something like world of warcraft, or League of Legends and progress just fine. Because hes rewarded with the actions of his time.

In Elite Dangerous you simply just spend the time. And hope RNG is on your side. The more time you have, the more RNG Slot machines you get to play. The more powerful you'll be.

So yes, there is a huge balance issue here. And I dont care what solution they go with. But as soon as the fix it. There will be less whining about "griefers". And more people standing up for their-selves. Again, mobius isint that big because people just want to enjoy PVE content. Not everyone went there for that. Tons of people went there because of the imbalances of open. And how few people can effect others from the top down. Its not a level playing field.

There is no "end-game" in ED, because its a sandbox. And if there was, PvP isn't it, at least it isn't for most players (a dev has stated that most players don't engage in PvP at all). Combat isn't the end-all be-all of ED. Combat is 1/3 of what the game has to offer. By the numbers, combat isn't even the majority of the game. Same for engineers. So many of the engineer mods are helpful in more ways than just pew-pew.

And available time to play is an issue for the individual, not the devs. That is a problem resulting from real life, not game mechanics. Can't hold dev's responsible for that.

Stop making claims that you can't back up, especially about mobius and people's motivations and decision making. You don't speak for everyone, you only speak for yourself.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

There is no "end-game" in ED, because its a sandbox. And if there was, PvP isn't it, at least it isn't for most players (a dev has stated that most players don't engage in PvP at all). Combat isn't the end-all be-all of ED. Combat is 1/3 of what the game has to offer. By the numbers, combat isn't even the majority of the game. Same for engineers. So many of the engineer mods are helpful in more ways than just pew-pew.

And available time to play is an issue for the individual, not the devs. That is a problem resulting from real life, not game mechanics. Can't hold dev's responsible for that.

Stop making claims that you can't back up, especially about mobius and people's motivations and decision making. You don't speak for everyone, you only speak for yourself.

I can prove it. Go to any thread that says, I got killed in open play.

The first comment is a link that says here join mobius.

plain and simple.

PVP is endgame, and even David Braben himself said there is an endgame and it could be better and they recognize that. He didnt directly say it was PVP. But he did say there was an endgame.

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDange...m_anything_david_braben_obe_fdev_ceo/dg42ytl/

So "right now". The highest level of play is PVP and it shows. Its not an opinion. Its a fact. And they are a small portion of the community. And the community is scared of them. Not because they are really scared of them. But because they have the time to outfit their ship while others dont have that time.

Elite Dangerous is all TIME.

 

[Zambrick]

Phil Specter mean anything? How about Oranthal James "OJ" Simpson? H.H. Holms? Or even John McAfee?

OJ because of the failure of our court system. Specter in Jail till he is dead, HH Holmes executed by hanging. McAfee is thus far convicted nor is their compelling evidence against him yet. If there ever is, then he will go to jail. All hear say at the moment.

Non of these things parallel ED in any way. So what point are you making?

If everyone accepted the rule of law, there would be no criminals. Criminals may or may not have "their own rules", that whole "honor among thieves", but that only really exists in literature. In reality, the world is a much darker and grimmer place. And gang members do very much go into other cities - ever hear of The Mongols or the Hell's Angels?

Still has no context in this game. Again is a game in the "Science Fiction" genre. Its not in the in the "Study of Human Behavior" genre.

I never said we should "just accept it", nor that there was no rule of law - had I suggested either of these, we wouldn't even be able to have a conversation of this nature. But I will stress and reiterate that Violent and even non violet crimes ARE a fact of life. Denying that these things happen is a dangerous delusion.

Again how does this have anything to do with this game. Your ultra violent future does not exist. There many many magnitudes less homicides today than there ever has been in Human History. In 1300 years the human race will either be dead and gone, or it will have evolved beyond the need to kill each other over differences. Those are the only 2 viable futures that can be grounded in any kind of Science.

Perhaps I'm just being dense, but... not only do I not see any analogy here, I'm pretty sure that for some Elite IS a murder simulator. Remember that whole "play your way" thing?

I suppose you are, seeing as how the implied analogy was placed after that sentence. The "Play it Your Way" argument has been shot down many times by FDEV themselves. If you want the latest proof then see the new Pilots Fed Bounty system being implemented.

Let's say you're Orenthal James "OJ" Simpson, with millions of dollars in the bank, making millions more every year from investments, endorsements, and residuals. You come home one night and... the next day you're in the back of your buddy's truck, leading a police parade down four lanes of highway, then in court on charges of murder, have a dead wife and a bloody glove that doesn't fit your swollen hand.

Or perhaps you're Harold Landry - oil and gas multi-millionaire who just finished stabbing his wife to death because she was talking to an old boyfriend on Facebook.

So you took the time to Look up OJs name just for the sake of trying to sound more credible? Doesnt work.

Anywho, You have named off 2 people in your previous statement, which also proves my point. There have been very fewer murderers throughout history who are wealthy than there are murderers who became so due to being repressed or marginalized. In Elite Dangerous everyone who is involved in the wholesale killing of new players and trade ships with no weapons are so wealthy that they make Bill gates look poor by comparison. The vast majority of the Griefers in ED are indeed some of the most wealthy players in the game. Mostly because of their nature and their willingness to use any and every exploit available to them in order to feel superior. Not actually be supperior mind you, but feeling superior. Most Greifers cant fly to save their lives, but they god rolled weapons and many hundreds of hours of grinding more than make up for actual skill.

Actually that's where my analogy shines - and my above inclusion of some of the absolutely wealthy committing some of the most heinous acts possible, by high-profile people on top of it, just puts a nuclear shine on my position here.

What position is it that you speak of. That murder is fun and that the game needs to Cater to you? Killing with no reason is how you get kicks? How does that put a shine on anything. It just proves what kind of person you are in game and real life. That is unless you are the worlds best character actor and you a channeling hannibal lecter.

So there are no Frame Shift Interdictors? No Hatchbreaker Limpets? No text chat? No voice comms? Or did I get Elite and Star Citizen mixed up again... which one is still in its alpha phase, with all of one planet and one system?

Yeppers we have Interdictors and Hatchbreakers and we have a total of 3 mission types against NPCs that require you to use those tools. Everything else is in your imagination. Everything else is done at a complete and total loss of profit or progression. If you were not overly wealthy, then the very idea of blowing up other people for the Lolz would never cross your mind. You would be doing something profitable in game to get bigger and better ships. Its not everyone elses fault people who have 2000 hours or more in the game are bored.

My WHAT? It's ok, I went through a period of experimenting with mind-expanding chemicals too, and I'll be the first to admit, going back and re-reading the journals I kept.. well, I wrote things like this too. It will pass.

What? Are you saying you did drugs and now somehow you have elevated beyond the mental capability of all man kind? Or are you just attempting to be funny? I cant really tell.

Wait, my what again? You're supposed to drink milk to come down from a bad trip, not orange juice. That only makes it worse. My idea of Role Play is very likely vastly superior to most. In fact, I have hosted a number of very high-profile table-top Role Play games at events like GenCon, DragonCon, and several other conventions over the years. Had I the time, I could very easily put pen to paper and churn out a novel set in the Elite universe that would likely top international best-seller lists. Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about here. Or rather, you do have an idea, but either have addressed the wrong person, or are simply unable to articulate your thoughts into written words.

Your ability to comprehend the English language is not my problem, however it seems to be yours. Especially if thats all that you took out of that statement. Nobody said anything about your "Ability" to RP. You chose to try and pat yourself on the back about that one. What was stated was the fact that your version of "RP" in "Elite Dangerous" is boring petty and without merit. You are expecting everyone to live in your little RP world with no frame of reference or back story. AKA your RP is random, boring, mindless and without merit. How can anyone play your game when they dont know they are playing it?

Or do you want to coin a new term like "Gameception" where you somehow put your ideas about the game into everyone elses head.

Immersion is entirely in your head. I hate when people throw this word around without understanding its meaning, and I refuse to surrender any more of the English language to people who want a word to mean something it does not. The line is drawn - this far and no further. But yes, there has been a whole lot of revisioning - as the folks at Frontier have discovered we have a very different vision from what they had in mind. That happens. A lot.

Yep, that is because I dont need everything handed to me on a silver platter. I dont need FDEV to tell me what to do at all times. I am playing "in" the games created universe. I am not trying to circumvent the consequences of the game. So when someone rolls up and blows you away for no meaningful reason other than the Lulz, then it breaks that immersion. I am not sure you understand the words meaning. Or more to the point that created game Universes are supposed immerse its players. Apparently you play Upon the games created Universe and rules. You are never part of it. At least that is what you just stated.

 

[thirstyfish]

I can prove it. Go to any thread that says, I got killed in open play.

The first comment is a link that says here join mobius.

plain and simple.

PVP is endgame, and even David Braben himself said there is an endgame and it could be better and they recognize that. He didnt directly say it was PVP. But he did say there was an endgame.

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDange...m_anything_david_braben_obe_fdev_ceo/dg42ytl/

So "right now". The highest level of play is PVP and it shows. Its not an opinion. Its a fact.

"end game" isn't a term that gets used in sandboxes. Sandboxes, by definition, never end. So how is there an "end game?"

"highest level of play" is about as subjective as it gets. I consider PvP to be a pretty low level of play, akin to CoD try-hards.

The biggest issue I have is your continued insistence on claiming to be able to speak for large numbers of people. They can speak for themselves. Do you really know the motivations behind each and every one of the 40,000 people in the mobius groups? What about the people who only play in solo? You can't possibly know, so don't try to generalize, it doesn't work. You don't really know their motivations, talk on the internet is just that, talk. If you believe everything on the internet is true, then I have some beachfront property in Arizona I'd like to sell you.

Open and PvP issues predate engineers by a long while. The current hotel california is the 4th thread created for this stuff. The issues that open has stems from some people's behavior, and how the game fails to discourage it.

Anyone can engage with PvP at any time. There are organized events that use stock sidewinders and eagles, that isn't "endgame." I know the fuel rats has hosted demolition derbies using ramming sidewinders only. Even a noob in a loaned sidey can participate in that.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

"end game" isn't a term that gets used in sandboxes. Sandboxes, by definition, never end. So how is there an "end game?"

"highest level of play" is about as subjective as it gets. I consider PvP to be a pretty low level of play, akin to CoD try-hards.

The biggest issue I have is your continued insistence on claiming to be able to speak for large numbers of people. They can speak for themselves. Do you really know the motivations behind each and every one of the 40,000 people in the mobius groups? What about the people who only play in solo? You can't possibly know, so don't try to generalize, it doesn't work. You don't really know their motivations, talk on the internet is just that, talk. If you believe everything on the internet is true, then I have some beachfront property in Arizona I'd like to sell you.

Open and PvP issues predate engineers by a long while. The current hotel california is the 4th thread created for this stuff. The issues that open has stems from some people's behavior, and how the game fails to discourage it.

Anyone can engage with PvP at any time. There are organized events that use stock sidewinders and eagles, that isn't "endgame." I know the fuel rats has hosted demolition derbies using ramming sidewinders only. Even a noob in a loaned sidey can participate in that.

I explicitly said Engineered PVP. Nice try though.

 

[metascrawl]

Had I the time, I could very easily put pen to paper and churn out a novel set in the Elite universe that would likely top international best-seller lists.

Words fail me.

 

[Stigbob]

As soon as these people noticed that they were only seeing the same people over and over and lost all their easy targets, they came out to the forum and started crying.

You can never win or lose. Everything is an affront. Everything must be about them. Unless wholesale slaughter and the over all killing of the entire game has been accomplished, then there will be no way to make them happy.

They've been clutching their pearls and slinging insults since 2014 about anything other than compulsory PVP centric open mode, and discussing it with them is largely a waste of time they always default to screeching "carebear" or "conspiracy" or both. Amusing but pointless.

Imagine if they got what they wanted and players scattered into the black and avoided busy stations unless on guard, they'd immediately start whining that the galaxy needed shrinking.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

They've been clutching their pearls and slinging insults since 2014 about anything other than compulsory PVP centric open mode, and discussing it with them is largely a waste of time they always default to screeching "carebear" or "conspiracy" or both. Amusing but pointless.

Imagine if they got what they wanted and players scattered into the black and avoided busy stations unless on guard, they'd immediately start whining that the galaxy needed shrinking.

Tell that to the dudes that get ganked at Sag. A.

 

[Zambrick]

They've been clutching their pearls and slinging insults since 2014 about anything other than compulsory PVP centric open mode, and discussing it with them is largely a waste of time they always default to screeching "carebear" or "conspiracy" or both. Amusing but pointless.

Imagine if they got what they wanted and players scattered into the black and avoided busy stations unless on guard, they'd immediately start whining that the galaxy needed shrinking.

They did in June of 2017. They wanted all CGs and all BGS to be in Open mode only. In November of 2016 when the second group of Mobius became popular because they were shouting that everyone should play there if they could not handle open the same argument was made. It went as far as stating that there should be no other game mode other than open.

It has been the same 5 or 6 people who have been perpetuating this farce since launch. Someone has a legit PVP question. Someone gives them the simple truth of it, then the campaigning of the Carebears vs the griefers are started by...you guessed it....the griefers. They cannot be happy unless they are trying to make someone else miserable. That includes the forums. To them the forum is something to be won. Its not an information resource and its not a place to collaborate or share ideas. Its a place to start a fight and try to win said fight with no proof or reason behind winning.

Simple logical truths both base upon societal norms and Science mean nothing. Its either a comprehension issue or a very deep seeded personal problem. Either way of all the player types in this game, they are most responsible for the extreme slowdown in content creation and release. FDEV have to constantly clean up their messes or fear losing their entire player base.

They go as far as saying that Player killing is very rare and is always meaningful to the game. The truth is that player killing in ED is almost without exception not meaningful, and any the reason behind the recent "rare" example of mindless player killing is only rare because those people no longer play in open.

Remember this is the same people who think station ramming is fun and that dropping mines inside the station is something cool. Then they present their idea of proof as a given fact and they have 0 proof to back up their "fact". Spouting random nonsense is enough for them. Indignation and ignorance fuels the words the spout out. Not logic, reasoning, or proof of fact.

 

[Arkadi]

I am honest. I did only browse OP and didn't read any following posts. I'll just say:

PvP ? Play Powerplay in Open!

You got a frame, you got a purpose, you'll have still to fight half-baked mechanics - but: You'll have legit and meaningful PvP!!!!

Support OPEN POWERPLAY for GREAT PVP !

 

[Dietger]

Beside, Gentlemen how many players play in Mobius? Just want to know.

 

[Dietger]

And how many do PVP in OPEN? I am curious.

 

[Arkadi]

And what kind of PvP?

* friendly crimes-off brawling until 20% hull pvp?
* organized duel event pvp?
* BGS group vs group pvp?
* pirate pvp?
* CG pvp?
* Powerplay PvP?
* Eravate Noob Killing (not Pvp - this is being a littel baby wihtout ambitions or "being a -zensored-")

 

[ALGOMATIC]

PVP is an end game in ED. It requires the highest skill and the most challenging activity BY FAR compare to anything else this game has to offer.

As far as griefing is concerned, there is no griefing in ED, what is ussualy called griefing is actually a regular PVP, sometimes its unbalanced, sometimes non consensual, but its PVP and allowed game mechanics. Its not griefing.

This is a space ship shooting multiplayer game, you can shoot other players for any reason whatsoever, the reason might be as simple as "just for fun", or "just to mine salt", still - its not griefing, just engaging in normal game mechanics. Anyone who doesn't like those said game mechanics is welcome to join Mobious or play in SOLO, or just dont hang around in any popular places, its easy to do since 99.9% of the systems in the bubble are empty of other CMDRs.

Anyone who felt they were "griefed" was actually involved in non consensual PVP.

Stop throwing this word around in any occasion.

 

[Stigbob]

Tell that to the dudes that get ganked at Sag. A.

Sag A like any busy station CG or engineer is a griefing hotspot, without victims there's no point so griefers gravitate to busy places.

I used that habit to easily bag all the best know station griefers/cheats for my block list without even leaving the pad.

 

[Dietger]

Griefing, being griefed is subjective. Of course, some one not keen of PvP will always be griefed in matters of actual PvP.....

Discussion beyond this simple fact is futile.

A vocal minority, in OPEN didn't want to play, like many - if not most other players. We'll be guessing about griefing, here, until the end of time.

 

[Arkadi]

some people not keen of PvP playing the game in open are real.

they don't have to go to Mobius or solo/group exile.

they only need to engineer theire ships a tiny littel bit to be defensive... speed, fast FSD boot, some shields - not flying naked helps (maybe also some defensive utilitys),

and just trying to figure how to high-wake to the next system in the nav-panel (or even preset a high-wake destination!) might help those playing in open who feel grieved by pvp attempts (piracey, gang-wars, random psychos or whatever)

but I guess it all has been said before...

 

[ALGOMATIC]

some people not keen of PvP playing the game in open are real.

they don't have to go to Mobius or solo/group exile.

they only need to engineer theire ships a tiny littel bit to be defensive... speed, fast FSD boot, some shields - not flying naked helps (maybe also some defensive utilitys),

and just trying to figure how to high-wake to the next system in the nav-panel (or even preset a high-wake destination!) might help those playing in open who feel grieved by pvp attempts (piracey, gang-wars, random psychos or whatever)

but I guess it all has been said before...

Yeah but its much easier crying on the forums of being "griefed".

 

[Zambrick]

PVP is an end game in ED. It requires the highest skill and the most challenging activity BY FAR compare to anything else this game has to offer.

As far as griefing is concerned, there is no griefing in ED, what is ussualy called griefing is actually a regular PVP, sometimes its unbalanced, sometimes non consensual, but its PVP and allowed game mechanics. Its not griefing.

This is a space ship shooting multiplayer game, you can shoot other players for any reason whatsoever, the reason might be as simple as "just for fun", or "just to mine salt", still - its not griefing, just engaging in normal game mechanics. Anyone who doesn't like those said game mechanics is welcome to join Mobious or play in SOLO, or just dont hang around in any popular places, its easy to do since 99.9% of the systems in the bubble are empty of other CMDRs.

Anyone who felt they were "griefed" was actually involved in non consensual PVP.

Stop throwing this word around in any occasion.

And anyone who was robbed in stabbed in life was involved in a violent non consensual mugging. Its so funny that you think that is real.

I suppose you think its fun to run onto the field of a T Ball game and start pushing kids over and taking over their game from them. I suppose its just a game right. So since its a game its not real. Since its not real, then you shouldnt have an opinion or be offended by it.

Mugging or killing anyone for no real reason other than you want to is not a reason. Its a sad excuse and a complete lack of imagination that traps you in your tiny boring worthless world of Open magical and false "non" consensual PVP.