The Difference Between PvP and "Griefing"

Is the issue that people get confused between griefing and murder? Murder is killing someone who is doing you no harm just because you feel like it and is (like it or not) part of the game. Griefing for me is very different, it's either using the game mechanics in a way not intended (dropping mines in space stations, ramming in space stations etc or it's picking on the same player over and over again. Just my thoughts.

Right, but lets say hypothetically speaking. You kill the same trader at a CG because you represent the feds.

Or kill the same dude transferring pamphlets for powerplay.

Those same dudes feel griefed.

The problem with this word in Elite Dangerous is its User Defined. Which is a major problem at the moment. A lot think its not because most of the people arent involved in attacking others. So you dont see it from their end.

Do me a favor, anyone here go out and just start killing traders and use as much roleplay as you can. Make your self feel legit about doing it. And I can guarantee no matter how much context you give someone "you're just looking for an excuse to grief". You will be called names. You will earn yourself a forum post.

Just try being a bad guy some time. And please, people dont say no thanks and put yourself on a pedestal cause youre better than the people that do it. Its a game first a foremost. And there is nothing wrong with being a bad guy.
 
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But whats a grief? Shooting you when you dont want to be shot or pirated. Or using exploits/cheats?

Because people feel griefed cause the get shot at period.

Everyday some explorer or trader makes a post about getting "griefed". Calls people names ect ect.

And is met with here join this private group. No griefers there!

When its perfectly acceptable to shoot other players in open at any given time.

Thats why this thread was made. Im not talking about harassment of killing a ship 20 times over and over. And even then that person if greifing theirself by now changing game modes in the first place.

So the main reason these threads are made is because people are tired of getting called names based around game play mechanics. And its a simple question. What is griefing in Elite Dangerous?

And the answer doesnt need to come from users. A clear statement needs to come from Fdev so they understand it. And no posting the TOS wont help here. Its been around since the beginning and people still dont care. Its an issue that needs to be talked about from the developers of the game.


O thats easy to define in Elite Dangerous terms. Do not bring the real world into it and do not bring other games into it. If you attempt to skew from the subject you will be blocked.

To be a griefer in ED is as follows.

You need to interfere, disrupt, or ruin another players game experience. You do this via unwanted or un needed impedance of their progress and time while not having a valid/long standing reason behind it. (AKA faction jumping or sudden taking up of a cause/reason for blowing up another ship. If you havent been supporting that ideal since launch, then all you are doing is griefing. )

Examples:

Blowing up other ships who are not power play aligned against your faction.

Blowing up cargo ships in an attempt at theft. Especially since you cannot make any meaningful in game financial gain when you blow up a T7 while in a FDL. You cant collect enough cargo to make it ever profitable.

Changing your excuse for blowing up other ships based upon your current mood.

For example If you are opposing a CG, are you or have you ever been part of the opposing minor power putting on the CG? If not and you just now decided at this moment that you were, thats griefing.

Changing ones story on the fly to fit any reason that you want for blowing up other players is griefing.

Blowing up ships when disabling them will do.

Blowing up exploration ships as they effect nothing and nobody.

Station Ramming is griefing.

Dropping Mines in the Station is griefing.

Going to the starter systems and blowing up new players exclusively is griefing

Blowing up exploration ships and science ships who are experimenting on planets is griefing.

Those the most egregious examples that we have today. That is also pretty much the only reason people are griefed.

I know I know it would take some type of integrity on your part. So we all know for a fact that you cannot and will not adhere to any principle that doesnt allow you to kill for any reason and random lulz. That is fine though. The C&P and Karma system will take care of it for you.
 
O thats easy to define in Elite Dangerous terms. Do not bring the real world into it and do not bring other games into it. If you attempt to skew from the subject you will be blocked.

To be a griefer in ED is as follows.

You need to interfere, disrupt, or ruin another players game experience. You do this via unwanted or un needed impedance of their progress and time while not having a valid/long standing reason behind it. (AKA faction jumping or sudden taking up of a cause/reason for blowing up another ship. If you havent been supporting that ideal since launch, then all you are doing is griefing. )

Examples:

Blowing up other ships who are not power play aligned against your faction.

Blowing up cargo ships in an attempt at theft. Especially since you cannot make any meaningful in game financial gain when you blow up a T7 while in a FDL. You cant collect enough cargo to make it ever profitable.

Changing your excuse for blowing up other ships based upon your current mood.

For example If you are opposing a CG, are you or have you ever been part of the opposing minor power putting on the CG? If not and you just now decided at this moment that you were, thats griefing.

Changing ones story on the fly to fit any reason that you want for blowing up other players is griefing.

Blowing up ships when disabling them will do.

Blowing up exploration ships as they effect nothing and nobody.

Station Ramming is griefing.

Dropping Mines in the Station is griefing.

Going to the starter systems and blowing up new players exclusively is griefing

Blowing up exploration ships and science ships who are experimenting on planets is griefing.

Those the most egregious examples that we have today. That is also pretty much the only reason people are griefed.

I know I know it would take some type of integrity on your part. So we all know for a fact that you cannot and will not adhere to any principle that doesnt allow you to kill for any reason and random lulz. That is fine though. The C&P and Karma system will take care of it for you.

I agree with most of this however. I change my playstyle constantly. Some days I play a good guy. Other days I play a bad guy. And there is nothing wrong with playing both ends.

However, thats how YOU personally feel.

And it pretty much has conflicting views of our community manager, as you can see here. https://gyazo.com/8602bf5fb1009cbadbfef31ce385c439

And in any other game you can banned for griefing. And everything you mentioned above. You cannont be banned for. Ever.

The problem here is the way you view it. Compared to the way other people view it. And no one is right or wrong on either side of the fence.

At the same time, I strongly feel if people feel griefed over getting shot at in a video game. They do it to theirself when they could have avoided it all together by choosing a different game mode.

I can blow up ships all day. And not get banned.

So if you really feel all that is griefing, frontier allows it and are griefers their-selves for allowing it to happen based on your viewpoints.

Not to discredit your opinion, I used to share the same views.

Its not like the bad guys in the game dont know they are doing bad things. And again, they shouldnt be attacked personally or threatened in real life because of what happens in a spaceship game because people feel griefed. Again which is the main point people are asking for a definition. Because people are tired of name calling and threats.

Here you can see a post that was listed over a year ago,

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDange...wse&utm_source=reddit&utm_name=EliteDangerous

So its certainly been an ongoing problem for quite sometime.
 
Right, but lets say hypothetically speaking. You kill the same trader at a CG because you represent the feds.

Or kill the same dude transferring pamphlets for powerplay.

Those same dudes feel griefed.

The problem with this word in Elite Dangerous is its User Defined. Which is a major problem at the moment. A lot think its not because most of the people arent involved in attacking others. So you dont see it from their end.

Do me a favor, anyone here go out and just start killing traders and use as much roleplay as you can. Make your self feel legit about doing it. And I can guarantee no matter how much context you give someone "you're just looking for an excuse to grief". You will be called names. You will earn yourself a forum post.

Just try being a bad guy some time. And please, people dont say no thanks and put yourself on a pedestal cause youre better than the people that do it. Its a game first a foremost. And there is nothing wrong with being a bad guy.

I don't see the point of going after traders. Hunting noob-killers is always fun but they do tend to clog, which is always good for a laugh.
 
I don't see the point of going after traders. Hunting noob-killers is always fun but they do tend to clog, which is always good for a laugh.

I dont see the point of going after explorers though at all. (Even though they can turn in data for influence as well for player factions. We do it all the time. So in reality Explorers are on the table as well.)

Traders however, can be just as muched involved in PVP even though they have no guns. We just dont see it at the moment cause PP failed. We see it at CG's Feds vs Imp Vs alliance.

Someone UA bombing your station. Kill em. SOmeone UA bombing the CG kill em. Problem here is the reason you dont see it as an issue. Is because there are other options besides open play. I just wanna touch on it and not go into the the whole hotel california thing.

At any rate, being a trader or using trader mechanics can effect everyone if not more than shooting someone in a one off.

If I were to UA bomb the starter systems. Not only would I shut down the ability for new players to start and progress. But it would do it across all 3 platforms. Its the biggest form of PVP in Elite dangerous even though its a PVE activity. Just the same as attacking ships for someones player faction.

So attacking traders is certainly a thing. And there are reasons behind it.

Not everyone is looking for salt. I promise. We just see it because people dont understand what open play entails.

People feel griefed when UA bombings happen to CGs. People were pretty upset about the CG in beta being shut down.

Even though it says at the bottom of EVERY CG. That your progress for the CG could be stopped with UA bombing mechanics.

So you can "grief" In open and solo or private. Since everyone is basically using the word "grief" when it effects other people.

See what I am trying to get at here? https://gyazo.com/8602bf5fb1009cbadbfef31ce385c439 Again thats a personal opinion unfortunately.
 
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Thing is, shooting UA-bombers makes little difference, even in open. Shooting traders makes little difference, even in open. Shooting anyone makes little difference, even UA-bombers in open at a CG.

While shooting someone is surely satisfying, the game mechanics behind all your examples -- the BGS -- are the only mechanics that actually count.

It's more efficient to just play the BGS than it is to attempt to engage players. PvP combat in the game is a white elephant. As someone pointed out to you in another thread, the only real "gud" in this game is gud at the BGS. Everything else is window dressing.

And there are counters to every BGS action.
 
Thing is, shooting UA-bombers makes little difference, even in open. Shooting traders makes little difference, even in open. Shooting anyone makes little difference, even UA-bombers in open at a CG.

While shooting someone is surely satisfying, the game mechanics behind all your examples -- the BGS -- are the only mechanics that actually count.

It's more efficient to just play the BGS than it is to attempt to engage players. PvP combat in the game is a white elephant. As someone pointed out to you in another thread, the only real "gud" in this game is gud at the BGS. Everything else is window dressing.

And there are counters to every BGS action.

And those counter methods are available to everyone, at any time, in all modes, across all platforms. Sounds like a level playing field to me.
 

ALGOMATIC

Banned
O thats easy to define in Elite Dangerous terms. Do not bring the real world into it and do not bring other games into it. If you attempt to skew from the subject you will be blocked.

To be a griefer in ED is as follows.

You need to interfere, disrupt, or ruin another players game experience. You do this via unwanted or un needed impedance of their progress and time while not having a valid/long standing reason behind it. (AKA faction jumping or sudden taking up of a cause/reason for blowing up another ship. If you havent been supporting that ideal since launch, then all you are doing is griefing. )

Examples:

Blowing up other ships who are not power play aligned against your faction.

Blowing up cargo ships in an attempt at theft. Especially since you cannot make any meaningful in game financial gain when you blow up a T7 while in a FDL. You cant collect enough cargo to make it ever profitable.

Changing your excuse for blowing up other ships based upon your current mood.

For example If you are opposing a CG, are you or have you ever been part of the opposing minor power putting on the CG? If not and you just now decided at this moment that you were, thats griefing.

Changing ones story on the fly to fit any reason that you want for blowing up other players is griefing.

Blowing up ships when disabling them will do.

Blowing up exploration ships as they effect nothing and nobody.

Station Ramming is griefing.

Dropping Mines in the Station is griefing.

Going to the starter systems and blowing up new players exclusively is griefing

Blowing up exploration ships and science ships who are experimenting on planets is griefing.

Those the most egregious examples that we have today. That is also pretty much the only reason people are griefed.

I know I know it would take some type of integrity on your part. So we all know for a fact that you cannot and will not adhere to any principle that doesnt allow you to kill for any reason and random lulz. That is fine though. The C&P and Karma system will take care of it for you.



None of those are griefing!!! NONE!

All valid game mechanics, you just get rekt so you call them "gwiefers". None of those activities resemble griefing in any way.

AS LONG AS THOSE ARE WITHIN THE GAME RULES YOU ARE NOT BEING GRIEFED!

I dont need a reason to kill you, I like killing cmdrs just for my own fun because this game allows me to shoot other players. This is not griefing, its un-consensual PVP forced on you, and you agreed to it by clicking open. Again, NOT GRIEFING!

If someone actually doing any griefing via comms (swearing, talking biowaste, racial, homophobic slurs etc) or repeatedly killing the same player (although this is grey area, define repeatedly...) they should be punished by FDEV since this is what constitutes griefing. Not your personal feelings, they are not important. The game rules are the only deciding factor, and OPEN mode is free for all, you can be a legit, legal psychopathic murderhobo and its PERFECTLY FINE withing the game rules.
 
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Thing is, shooting UA-bombers makes little difference, even in open. Shooting traders makes little difference, even in open. Shooting anyone makes little difference, even UA-bombers in open at a CG.

While shooting someone is surely satisfying, the game mechanics behind all your examples -- the BGS -- are the only mechanics that actually count.

It's more efficient to just play the BGS than it is to attempt to engage players. PvP combat in the game is a white elephant. As someone pointed out to you in another thread, the only real "gud" in this game is gud at the BGS. Everything else is window dressing.

And there are counters to every BGS action.

If PVP actions of the BGS were restricted to open play. IE powerplay and player factions. You could send them to the rebuy screen and defend your base. Or force a wing for protection.

Open for ps4 players, Open for Xbox players as I understand PC players cannot see them. But people would still have the same chance to counter other than it coming down to a time vs time battle. Which is why a very small part of the player base takes part in it. Even smaller than the PVP community. Unless a big event happens like Operation Sirius Business. That shut down engineers. Too bad they couldnt have been shot at and stopped.

And people are lucky the the starter system shut down didn't go through. Once again people were begging for changes then. As there was no defending against something like that. There should be multiple ways to counter activities rather than who has the most time.

And those counter methods are available to everyone, at any time, in all modes, across all platforms. Sounds like a level playing field to me.

But its not. It comes down to time vs time. You gonna call off work or school to win a spaceship game battle shooting boring NPCs? The same thing youve been doing since day one when you started this game?

Its why no one takes part in this stuff.

Thats why people really dont care for powerplay other than modules. And people really dont care much about colonia except for helping each other grow. People want "meaningful pvp" But everytime something is suggested for it. It gets shot down because people are against it all together. Which is not very fair for anybody.

This is called having your cake and eating it too.
 
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None of those are griefing!!! NONE!

All valid game mechanics, you just get rekt so you call them "gwiefers". None of those activities resemble griefing in any way.

AS LONG AS THOSE ARE WITHIN THE GAME RULES YOU ARE NOT BEING GRIEFED!

I dont need a reason to kill you, I like killing cmdrs just for my own fun because this game allows me to shoot other players. This is not griefing, its un-consensual PVP forced on you, and you agreed to it by clicking open. Again, NOT GRIEFING!

If someone actually doing any griefing via comms (swearing, talking biowaste, racial, homophobic slurs etc) or repeatedly killing the same player (although this is grey area, define repeatedly...) they should be punished by FDEV since this is what constitutes griefing. Not your personal feelings, they are not important. The game rules are the only deciding factor, and OPEN mode is free for all, you can be a legit, legal psychopathic murderhobo and its PERFECTLY FINE withing the game rules.

Well said, also 100% true. For the life of me I can't understand the constant debate (whinging) around this subject.
 
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Well said, also 100% true.

Let's not conflate griefing with harassment, exploits, and the like. The terms are not synonymous

FD has not defined griefing in the ToS. Go read it sometime.

Here for your reading pleasure:
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9.2 To the maximum extent permitted by law, we disclaim all representations, warranties, conditions or other terms (whether express or implied) including but not limited to implied warranties and/or conditions of merchantability, satisfactory quality, non-infringement of intellectual property rights and fitness for a particular purpose. While we endeavour to ensure that the Online Features are available at most times, we do not guarantee that they will always be available, nor that they will not become unavailable while a user is Using the Game. The Online Features may become unavailable for reasons including but not limited to the performance of maintenance, the updating of software, emergency situations and equipment or network failures.
9.3 Without prejudice to the generality of the above, we do not warrant that the Game is error-free or that it will operate without interruption, nor that we will repair any errors in the Game.
9.4 We do not warrant that the Game will operate on all devices and operating systems. It is your responsibility to refer to the minimum required technical specifications contained on the relevant product page required for effective Use of the Game and the Online Features.
9.5 If you require technical assistance, please contact our support team via https://support.elitedangerous.com. You will be responsible for all connection charges.
10. Limitation of Liability; Remedies
10.1 We only supply the Game (including the Online Features) for domestic and private use. You agree not to use the Game for any commercial, business or resale purposes and we have no liability to you for any loss of profit, loss of information, loss of business, business interruption, or loss of business opportunity arising out of the use of or inability to use the Game, even if we have been advised of the possibility of such damages.
10.2 We are only responsible for loss or damage you suffer that is a foreseeable result of our breach of this EULA or our negligence, subject to the limitations specified in clause 10.3, but we are not responsible for any unforeseeable loss or damage. Loss or damage is foreseeable under this EULA if it is an obvious consequence of our breach or if it was contemplated by you and us at the time we granted this EULA. Except as otherwise specified in this clause 10, in no event shall Frontier, our partners, our affiliates, or our respective licensors and suppliers be liable for any, indirect, punitive, incidental or special damages arising out of or in any way connected with any Use of the Game or the Online Features (including any delay or inability to Use the Game or the Online Features) including, without limitation, loss of data, computer failure or malfunction, or any and all other damages or losses arising out of the Use of the Game or Online Features, whether based on contract, tort, strict liability or otherwise.
10.3 Notwithstanding clause 10.2, our maximum aggregate liability under, in connection with, ARISING OUT OF, OR RELATED TO this EULA or your use of the Game (including the Online Features), whether in contract, tort (including negligence) or otherwise, shall in all circumstances be limited to the amount actually paid by you for the Game. This does not apply to the types of loss set out in clause 10.4. Because Some Jurisdictions do not allow the exclusion or limitation of liability for certain damages, the above limitations may not apply to you.
10.4 Nothing in this EULA shall limit or exclude our liability to you for: (i) death or personal injury resulting from our negligence; (ii) fraud or fraudulent misrepresentation; and (iii) any other liability that cannot be excluded or limited by law.
10.5 You understand that the Game may be updated at any time and in doing so no obligation to provide such updates to you pursuant to this EULA or otherwise shall arise.
10.6 If you breach or threaten to breach any provision in this EULA, you agree that Frontier shall be irreparably harmed, and, without any additional findings of irreparable injury or harm or other considerations of public policy, Frontier shall be entitled to receive an injunction compelling specific performance by you of your obligations under this EULA without the necessity of posting any bond or other security.
11. Governing Law; Forum Selection
11.1 Subject to clauses 11.2 and 11.3 below, this EULA and any claim or dispute of whatever nature (including any non-contractual dispute) arising out of or relating to this EULA shall be governed by, and construed in accordance with, the laws of England whose courts shall have non-exclusive jurisdiction over all disputes arising under or in connection with this EULA, unless and to the extent only that the laws and/or jurisdiction relating to transactions with consumers in a particular jurisdiction require this EULA to be governed by and construed in accordance with the laws of such jurisdiction and/or require any dispute relating to this EULA to be subject to the jurisdiction of a court or other tribunal in such jurisdiction in order for this EULA to be binding and enforceable, in which event the local laws and/or jurisdiction of such jurisdiction shall apply, to the extent so required. You consent to personal jurisdiction of and venue in the courts within or having jurisdiction over such country, and waive any objection you might otherwise have had on the basis of the doctrine of forum non conveniens.
11.2 In the case of any claim of dispute of any nature (including non-contractual dispute) arising our of or relating to any Use of the Game by a user physically located within the United States of America at the time of the Use of the Game giving rise to such claim or dispute, clause 11.1 shall not apply and this EULA and any claim or dispute of whatever nature (including any non-contractual dispute) arising out of or relating to this EULA shall be governed by, and construed in accordance with, the laws of the state of Nevada not including its conflict of law principles. Each party irrevocably agrees that any legal action, dispute, suit or proceeding brought by it in any way arising out of this Agreement must be brought solely and exclusively in the courts located in the state of Nevada, and irrevocably accepts and submits to the sole and exclusive jurisdiction of each of the aforesaid courts in personam.
11.3 The United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods shall not apply to this EULA.
12. Miscellaneous
12.1 We may transfer our rights and obligations under this EULA to another entity, but this will not affect your rights or obligations under this EULA. You may only transfer your rights or obligations under this EULA to another person if we agree in writing.
12.2 Each of the provisions of this EULA operates separately. If any court or competent authority decides that any of them are unlawful or unenforceable, the remainder of the EULA will remain in full force and effect.
12.3 In the event of a conflict between the terms of this EULA and the Conditions of Use, the provisions of this EULA shall prevail.
12.4 If we fail to insist that you perform any of your obligations under this EULA, or if we do not enforce our rights against you, or if we delay in doing so, that will not mean that we have waived our rights against you and will not mean that you do not have to comply with those obligations.
12.5 If you acquired or Use this Game in the United States of America, you will not export or re-export it except as authorised and permitted by the laws and regulations of the United States of America.
12.6 This EULA constitutes the entire agreement between Frontier and you with respect to the license and use of the Game and the Online Features and supersedes all prior or contemporaneous understandings. No amendment or modification of this EULA will be binding unless made in writing and signed by a duly authorised representative of Frontier.
 
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Well said, also 100% true. For the life of me I can't understand the constant debate (whinging) around this subject.

Basically people are tired of being called name and recieving threats in real life over a video game. As well as people yelling MAH GRIEFS everytime something unfavorable happens to them.

Then when people suggest context for PVP, like restricting powerplay and separating the game modes for PVP activities only; it gets shot down because people are against PVP all together. Even though they are safe in a private group.

The only people I see being upset about it. Are the people that left Open play, clicked a link and went out of their way to join something like mobius. But they still want to effect others without getting shot. A basic PVEer that logs into mobius could careless about effecting a player faction or hurting a CG because they left open in the first place so they wouldnt be effected.

So if the left Open so they wouldnt be effected. Why should they get to effect others from within it.

Pretty straight forward. Its okay to grief people as long as you arent shooting at them. Griefing seems to only apply to people shooting each other. Which is absurd.
 
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ALGOMATIC

Banned
Basically people are tired of being called name and recieving threats in real life over a video game. As well as people yelling MAH GRIEFS everytime something unfavorable happens to them.

Then when people suggest context for PVP, like restricting powerplay and separating the game modes for PVP activities only it; gets shot down because people are against PVP all together. Even though they are safe in a private group.

The only people I see being upset about it. Are the people that left Open play, clicked a link and went out of their way to join something like mobius. But they still want to effect others without getting shot. A basic PVEer that logs into mobius could careless about effecting a player faction or hurting a CG because they left open in the first place so they wouldnt be effected.

So if the left Open so they wouldnt be effected. Why should they get to effect others from within it.

Pretty straight forward. Its okay to grief people as long as you arent shooting at them. Griefing seems to only apply to people shooting each other. Which is absurd.

100% This.
 
I agree with most of this however. I change my playstyle constantly. Some days I play a good guy. Other days I play a bad guy. And there is nothing wrong with playing both ends.

However, thats how YOU personally feel.

And it pretty much has conflicting views of our community manager, as you can see here. https://gyazo.com/8602bf5fb1009cbadbfef31ce385c439

And in any other game you can banned for griefing. And everything you mentioned above. You cannont be banned for. Ever.

The problem here is the way you view it. Compared to the way other people view it. And no one is right or wrong on either side of the fence.

At the same time, I strongly feel if people feel griefed over getting shot at in a video game. They do it to theirself when they could have avoided it all together by choosing a different game mode.

I can blow up ships all day. And not get banned.

So if you really feel all that is griefing, frontier allows it and are griefers their-selves for allowing it to happen based on your viewpoints.

Not to discredit your opinion, I used to share the same views.

Its not like the bad guys in the game dont know they are doing bad things. And again, they shouldnt be attacked personally or threatened in real life because of what happens in a spaceship game because people feel griefed. Again which is the main point people are asking for a definition. Because people are tired of name calling and threats.

Here you can see a post that was listed over a year ago,

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDange...wse&utm_source=reddit&utm_name=EliteDangerous

So its certainly been an ongoing problem for quite sometime.


I have seen those posts before. The difference between those ideas and the current ideology is the open ended aspect that their could be consequences for the play style. Since launch there havent been any consequences. At least no appreciable consequences. T

The Sidewinder Suicide an PF bounty loop hole is just now being closed after 3 years. However that is supposed to be the bare minimum punishment for being a criminal in the game. If you ask me its awfully generous at that.

Now when the full C&P and Karma system is in place and people have to finally take the same risks that traders and newbies have been taking since launch in open, then some of the things I listed can fall off. For example the station ramming, mining, and killing of well outclassed or new pilots will still stay. Killing of tradeships, CG opposing, and whatnot can be dropped off the list.

That is because committing Capital Crimes in the future of the game will have to mean something. If they take the powder puff approach and not actually provide a capital punishment for a capital crime, then they may as well not do it all and turn PVP off all together. I imagine that wont be the case however as the potential for real PVP is great. The current open game contains Zero player interaction combat PVP of merit. The closest thing to Combat or violent PVP in Open right now is Power Play. Even that is debatable at times. Mostly because Power Play isnt a fully realize aspect of the game.

So in the future of the game you can be as dirty as you want to be, but just know that it will come at an extremely harsh and unavoidable cost. Just like the pilots who fly CG Cargo missions in Open. Just like the explorers coming back from beagle point with no weapons and no cargo who are blown up for the lulz. If you cant accept that there must and will be harsh consequences, then you really do not want PVP. You want seal clubbing. Open "PVP" is a complete and utter joke. Anyone who participates in anything other than arranged dueling and Power Play in open are a complete joke. I have as of yet to been interdicted by a competent let alone real pirate in this game. Most roll up in an FDL and tell you to empty your hold. They dont have hatchbreaks let alone a single slot of cargo space. They are clown shoes.

The best thing you can do is try and shape it into something fair, fun, and balanced. It would be a better use of your time than defending the current state of EDs supposed PVP. Eve is over a decade old and their PVP destroys EDs in every aspect. Too bad the rest of Eve didnt suck.
 
Let's not conflate griefing with harassment, exploits, and the like. The terms are not synonymous

FD has not defined griefing in the ToS. Go read it sometime.

Here for your reading pleasure:
Elite Dangerous End User Licence AgreementIMPORTANT NOTICES:
If you buy, download, use, access, or play (“Use”) the Elite Dangerous client and/or server and/or launcher (the “Game”), you represent and warrant that (i) you are aware of the applicable age rating for the Game; (ii) you are old enough to play the Game, and (iii),you thereby and acknowledge and agree that you have read, understood, and agree to be bound by the terms of this End User Licence Agreement (the “EULA”) in full. The terms of this EULA include the “Privacy Policy” set out at https://store.elitedangerous.com/privacy-policy/ which is incorporated herein by reference. By accepting this EULA you are also agreeing to be bound by the terms and conditions of use and sale (the “Conditions of Use”) as detailed on the Frontier online store, (elitedangerous.com, frontier.co.uk, and zaonce.net).
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Frontier Developments (“Frontier”, “we”, or “us”) reserves the right to modify, alter, amend, or update this EULA at any time in its sole discretion by posting an amended version at https://store.elitedangerous.com/ed-eula/. Any continued Use of the Game after Frontier posts such modifications, alterations, amendments, or updates constitutes your acceptance of such modifications, alterations, amendments, and updates.
Where a CD key or activation code is required to install this Game and/or to access any Online Features, Frontier is not responsible for reproducing or replacing such CD key or activation code, and it is the responsibility of the original purchaser to keep this CD key or activation code secure. Lost, stolen or damaged CD keys/activation codes will not be replaced by Frontier.
1. Acknowledgements
1.1 You accept responsibility in accordance with the terms of this EULA for Using the Game on or in relation to any device, whether or not it is owned by you. You shall obtain permission from the owner of any device that is controlled, but not owned, by you for Use of the Game. You and the owner of any device may be charged by your and their service providers for internet access on the devices.
1.2 The Game may contain links to other third-party websites. Such websites are not controlled by Frontier, and we are not responsible for and do not endorse their content, privacy policies or data security practices. You should make your own informed judgement regarding your interaction with such third-party websites, including the purchase and use of any products or services accessible through them.
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You are not permitted:
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4.2 You may not infringe our intellectual property rights or those of any third party in relation to your use of the Game or any Online Features to the extent that such use is not licensed by this EULA.
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5. Intellectual Property Rights
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5.2 You acknowledge that you shall acquire no proprietary rights in past or stored gameplay, Game progress, character or other achievements within the Game.
5.3 You acknowledge that you have no right to access the Game in source code form.
6. Fees and Payment
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6.3 We may, in our sole discretion, waive any and all fees associated with the download of the Game in connection with special offers or promotions.
7. Game Functionality; Epilepsy Warning
7.1 Online Features
7.1.1 The Game may allow certain online services operated by Frontier and/or its affiliates or third parties authorised on their behalf to be accessed, which allow users of the Game to enjoy certain on-line or multiplayer features and functionality associated with the Game (“Online Features”). These services and Online Features may, however, require payment of additional fees. In addition, access to and use of such Online Features and other goods or information made available as part of such services may be subject to completion of a registration process and acceptance of additional terms and conditions including, but not limited to, privacy policies governing the use and processing of personally identifiable information. Not all purchasers of this Game will be able to register or benefit from such services (including Online Features associated with the Game). These services and Online Features may not be available in your country, are not guaranteed to be available for any period of time, may be subject to suspension or withdrawal at any time and may be subject to age restrictions. An internet connection will be required to access Online Features. You are responsible for all internet and other connection charges associated with your access to and use of any Online Features.
7.2 Usage Data
7.2.1 We may from time to time during your Use of the Game collect information about your device, as specified in the Privacy Policy, which forms part of this EULA. This information may also include your Game ID, Game achievements, scores and performances, IP address, MAC address or other device ID, other device use information or other information and statistics regarding your usage of the Game. This information may be used not only to help you play the Game over the Internet (where the Game contains Online Features) but also to help us better understand how our customers are using the Game, their behaviour and preferences, so that we can improve our games and services in the future.
7.3 Communication and interaction with other users
7.3.1 The Game and/or Online Features may allow communications between users by means including but not limited to text and voice. When using such features you must use common sense and good manners, your behaviour, conduct and communications must be considerate to other users and you must not be directly or indirectly offensive, threatening, harassing or bullying to others or violate any applicable laws including but not limited to anti-discrimination legislation based on race, ethnicity, religion, gender or sexual orientation.
7.3.2 Frontier reserves the right, but not the obligation, to record, monitor and retain all or some of the communications described in clause 7.3.1 in order to safeguard other users and our community. You acknowledge that Frontier shall have the right, but not the obligation, to pre-screen, refuse, move or remove any content available through the Game or the Online Features, including, but not limited to, content that violates any law or this EULA, the Privacy Policy, or any other applicable legal or contractual obligation.
7.3.3 By accepting these terms and conditions you hereby agree that any information collected as described in Clause 7.3.2 that is deemed to be illegal or to contravene the rights of Frontier, our employees, customers, or any other individual during Use of the Game or the Online Features may be reported to the police or other appropriate authorities, and; ii) agree to be bound by the Community Codes of Conduct for the Game, the latest version of which may be viewed here.
7.3.4 Frontier does not own the materials you provide to Frontier (including feedback and suggestions) or post, upload, input or submit via the Game or Online Features, and you may request deletion of any such materials at any time, unless such content has been shared with, or copied and stored by other users of the Game or Online Services. However, by posting, uploading, inputting, providing or submitting such content you are granting Frontier and its affiliates a nonexclusive, irrevocable, worldwide, sublicenseable, perpetual, unlimited, assignable, fully paid up and royalty-free right to copy, publish, prepare derivative works of, distribute, process, analyze, use and commercialize, in any way now known or in the future discovered, such content.
7.3.5 All content posted, uploaded, inputted, or submitted by you via the Game or any Online Feature is at your own risk and you hereby represent and warrant that you have the full legal right to so use such content and that it is not confidential or proprietary to any third party, nor are you using it in violation of any law or contractual restriction.
7.4 Patches and Updates
We may deploy or provide patches, updates and modifications to the Game that must be installed in order for you to continue to play the Game. We may update the Game remotely (including without limitation the Game client on your device), and you hereby grant us your consent to deploy and apply such patches, updates and modifications.
7.5 Epilepsy Warning
A small number of users may be susceptible to epileptic seizures or loss of consciousness when exposed to certain flashing lights or light patterns. Such individuals may experience a seizure while watching certain images or playing a video game. If you or anyone in your family has ever had symptoms related to epilepsy (seizures or loss of consciousness) when exposed to flashing lights, please consult a medical professional and take all necessary precautions prior to playing the Game. If you experience any of the following symptoms while playing any video game: dizziness, eye or muscle twitches, loss of consciousness, disorientation, convulsions, involuntary movements, discontinue use of that video game immediately and consult a medical professional.
8. Termination
8.1 Without prejudice to any other rights, Frontier may terminate this EULA immediately without notice if you fail to comply with the terms and conditions of this EULA. In the event of termination, all rights granted to you under this EULA shall cease and you must destroy all copies of the Game and all of its component parts (including any Game stored on the hard disk of any device). All provisions of this EULA relating to disclaimers or warranties, limitations of liability, remedies, damages, Frontier’s proprietary rights and/or any terms intended expressly or by implication to survive termination or expiry shall survive termination, including, without limitation Clauses 3-5, and 10-12.
8.2 The Online Features are provided over the internet as provided by Frontier. You acknowledge that the Online Features are provided by Frontier at its discretion and may be terminated or otherwise discontinued by Frontier at any time.
9. Limited Warranty and Support
9.1 The Game (along with any services provided by us in connection with it, including but not limited to the Online Features) is provided "as is" and without warranty of any kind, to the maximum extent permitted by law. You assume all risk associated with Using the Game or the Online Features.
9.2 To the maximum extent permitted by law, we disclaim all representations, warranties, conditions or other terms (whether express or implied) including but not limited to implied warranties and/or conditions of merchantability, satisfactory quality, non-infringement of intellectual property rights and fitness for a particular purpose. While we endeavour to ensure that the Online Features are available at most times, we do not guarantee that they will always be available, nor that they will not become unavailable while a user is Using the Game. The Online Features may become unavailable for reasons including but not limited to the performance of maintenance, the updating of software, emergency situations and equipment or network failures.
9.3 Without prejudice to the generality of the above, we do not warrant that the Game is error-free or that it will operate without interruption, nor that we will repair any errors in the Game.
9.4 We do not warrant that the Game will operate on all devices and operating systems. It is your responsibility to refer to the minimum required technical specifications contained on the relevant product page required for effective Use of the Game and the Online Features.
9.5 If you require technical assistance, please contact our support team via https://support.elitedangerous.com. You will be responsible for all connection charges.
10. Limitation of Liability; Remedies
10.1 We only supply the Game (including the Online Features) for domestic and private use. You agree not to use the Game for any commercial, business or resale purposes and we have no liability to you for any loss of profit, loss of information, loss of business, business interruption, or loss of business opportunity arising out of the use of or inability to use the Game, even if we have been advised of the possibility of such damages.
10.2 We are only responsible for loss or damage you suffer that is a foreseeable result of our breach of this EULA or our negligence, subject to the limitations specified in clause 10.3, but we are not responsible for any unforeseeable loss or damage. Loss or damage is foreseeable under this EULA if it is an obvious consequence of our breach or if it was contemplated by you and us at the time we granted this EULA. Except as otherwise specified in this clause 10, in no event shall Frontier, our partners, our affiliates, or our respective licensors and suppliers be liable for any, indirect, punitive, incidental or special damages arising out of or in any way connected with any Use of the Game or the Online Features (including any delay or inability to Use the Game or the Online Features) including, without limitation, loss of data, computer failure or malfunction, or any and all other damages or losses arising out of the Use of the Game or Online Features, whether based on contract, tort, strict liability or otherwise.
10.3 Notwithstanding clause 10.2, our maximum aggregate liability under, in connection with, ARISING OUT OF, OR RELATED TO this EULA or your use of the Game (including the Online Features), whether in contract, tort (including negligence) or otherwise, shall in all circumstances be limited to the amount actually paid by you for the Game. This does not apply to the types of loss set out in clause 10.4. Because Some Jurisdictions do not allow the exclusion or limitation of liability for certain damages, the above limitations may not apply to you.
10.4 Nothing in this EULA shall limit or exclude our liability to you for: (i) death or personal injury resulting from our negligence; (ii) fraud or fraudulent misrepresentation; and (iii) any other liability that cannot be excluded or limited by law.
10.5 You understand that the Game may be updated at any time and in doing so no obligation to provide such updates to you pursuant to this EULA or otherwise shall arise.
10.6 If you breach or threaten to breach any provision in this EULA, you agree that Frontier shall be irreparably harmed, and, without any additional findings of irreparable injury or harm or other considerations of public policy, Frontier shall be entitled to receive an injunction compelling specific performance by you of your obligations under this EULA without the necessity of posting any bond or other security.
11. Governing Law; Forum Selection
11.1 Subject to clauses 11.2 and 11.3 below, this EULA and any claim or dispute of whatever nature (including any non-contractual dispute) arising out of or relating to this EULA shall be governed by, and construed in accordance with, the laws of England whose courts shall have non-exclusive jurisdiction over all disputes arising under or in connection with this EULA, unless and to the extent only that the laws and/or jurisdiction relating to transactions with consumers in a particular jurisdiction require this EULA to be governed by and construed in accordance with the laws of such jurisdiction and/or require any dispute relating to this EULA to be subject to the jurisdiction of a court or other tribunal in such jurisdiction in order for this EULA to be binding and enforceable, in which event the local laws and/or jurisdiction of such jurisdiction shall apply, to the extent so required. You consent to personal jurisdiction of and venue in the courts within or having jurisdiction over such country, and waive any objection you might otherwise have had on the basis of the doctrine of forum non conveniens.
11.2 In the case of any claim of dispute of any nature (including non-contractual dispute) arising our of or relating to any Use of the Game by a user physically located within the United States of America at the time of the Use of the Game giving rise to such claim or dispute, clause 11.1 shall not apply and this EULA and any claim or dispute of whatever nature (including any non-contractual dispute) arising out of or relating to this EULA shall be governed by, and construed in accordance with, the laws of the state of Nevada not including its conflict of law principles. Each party irrevocably agrees that any legal action, dispute, suit or proceeding brought by it in any way arising out of this Agreement must be brought solely and exclusively in the courts located in the state of Nevada, and irrevocably accepts and submits to the sole and exclusive jurisdiction of each of the aforesaid courts in personam.
11.3 The United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods shall not apply to this EULA.
12. Miscellaneous
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I think you are confused, actual griefing can be any or all of those. Actual griefing is not in game murder. Maybe this is why my other post flew over your head, you were mostly correct in what you said, however here in the Elite Dangerous bubble Greedo would have been crying "Griefer" after the event and requesting that Star Wars be changed to consensual death only....
 
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Nah, ramming and tricking the station to shoot the other player can be effective griefer tools too.

Ok fair point. But taking one snippet out of what I said which seems to be done a lot around here doesnt change the facts. shooting ramming, and station help is all the same. However, in my experiences as a bad guy stations are a traders friend and I wouldnt change that at all.

And once again, I dont feel that to be griefing but gameplay mechanics. Griefing in Elite dangerous is using hacks or exploits for an advantage over other players. Things that arent part of the game.
For example The healing beams and the mailslot problems we have about 5 months ago. Definitely griefing. But it also showed how powerful healing beams were. And the healing beams received balances because of it.

PVEers or private group people wouldnt have seen it or understood it because they dont PVP. But in open things like that have a trickle down effect. Which is why you seen me call for balancing in other threads. Because a lot of people dont see the problems that could effect others in open play. Not until the problems arise.

Like Ive said many times before, You dont have to balance the game around PVE. Just like Diablo 3. You dont need balance there. However because of the dynamics of people in Elite Dangerous. You do.

The changes people are asking for benefits everyone else but the PVPers. We are already at the top. We dont need the help.
 
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