My Response to the Elite Community and Thoughts on "Colonia and the Thargoids" – Video by ObsidianAnt

[Muetdhiver]

Right now it seems that the time involved in getting there, being nearly half way across the galaxy and off toward the core, is the main thing that distinguishes Colonial from other places and what can give some people a feeling of accomplishment reaching the place.

Traveling and overcoming vast distances, seeing the galaxy, nebulae and the like, slowly moving by, is a part of the appeal of exploration and travel in the game to me, monotonous as the jump honking mechanic might be to some.

I'm open to some other suggestions as well. In general, I like the idea of having neutron stars having some skill based mechanic around them and providing a significant boost. Getting to Colonia in an hour and forty minutes though does seem a little excessive to me, but that still seems like more of a fringe case scenario, if I'm not mistaken.

The OP is a little off, and was initially more a response to those who want fast travel all over the place and call the game dumb and boring for not having it.

I think that you are right in that getting to Colonia should feel like an accomplishement to the player, and that the player should get a sense of scale involved however :

1) From my experience with navigation (450Klyr) above 2h the sense of scale turns into boredom / frustration. I Really think that > 2h, skill is the dominant factor for the sense of accomplishement.
2) I got a much higher sense of accomplishement from getting to Rho Cas, crossing the rift in the sparse part and reaching very high above the plane than crossing 10's of Klyrs. That is : challenges that one overcome by skill way better than challenges that one overcome by throwing time at it.
3) Compared to most games, investing 2hours just to get from A to B is already quite a feat. Would we not have a better game if instead of 5-6h of boring gameplay, we had 2h of challenge ? It would still be slow paced...


About fast travel : if FD puts it in, it has to be hard. And I mean, really damn hard.

E.g. : say FD adds wormhole. Well, I would be against it because it would make everything easy, right ?

Unless :

1) said wormhole are one-way only
2) only last for some time before closing (i.e. one has to find them, but they are unstalble and last only for an unknown amout of time)
3) Appear in some environnement you can "guess", and can be triangulated via ? hyperspace anomalies ? or whatever skill based method you come up with
4) the exit point is highly dependent on a difficult SC piloting phase* (i.e. do it wrong => exit go knows where with the ship offline 10km above a 2G world, or super close to a WR star or other such stressfull situations XD)
5) has the risk of seriously damaging the ship if one lose control / mess the piloting up.
6) has the risk of dumping you into witchspace infested with thargoids if you mess the SC insertion.

And voilà : you get something that relies on skilled exploration and possibly lead to group cartography efforts, requires piloting skill and carries a real risk. It would still be time intensive (find it, get to it, etc...)
but it would also be quite fun and rewarding (e.g. cross 3Klyr in one go).

*One could imagine something like manually piloting in a branching Hyperspace tunel : hit the "walls" => Thargoid fish food, take the wrong turn => damn that planet ground is close. Why is the ship offline XD

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

What's so bad about Steam? Sure, they take a cut from sales, similar to retailers and the like, but it's where I heard about this game in the first place, so at least they're doing something right. Rather convenient for me that they've been keeping track of much of my game library for me as well. Guess that means I'm not a "hardcore" gamer after all.

Off topic, but it'll be interesting to see your thoughts on the Type-10 when it comes out. Wondering if it'll ever usurp your Type-9. I'm betting on likely not, but all the same...

I actually happen to love Steam, especially after that truly pile of biowaste that is called PSN, at least that's how it used to be on PlayStation3. Also, Elite updates download at a speed of about 500c - worth using it for that alone.

 

[dannysquid]

I like the idea of fast travel = skill + danger.

My ideal mechanic would be one that didn't have a distance limit, but the further your targeted jump the more likely it was that you'd end up dead in the attempt, and your survival depended to a large degree on skill and accuracy. For instance a 100,000 LY jump should be possible imo, but it should mean a 99.997% chance of death even if you did everything right. Anything below 70 LY should be nearly 99.997% of surviving. And the 50% chance should be around 1000 LY. Of course it would only be fun it was skill/accuracy based.

It could be something like jumping through a hyperspace tunnel that played like an interdiction tunnel, and if you fell out of the tunnel you'd take more damage, and the longer the jump the more damage you'd take upon failure. If you fail and the damage was low enough that you survived, then you'd end up in a random system. The jump distance would create the radius for possible locations to end up. The difficulty of the hyperspace tunnel would be determined by the distance and to a lesser extent, the mass of the object you were jumping to.

I think random insta-death is too harsh. Maybe less accuracy over longer ranges. So you might end up several hundred light years from where you want to go..

 

[Dbrn47]

I think random insta-death is too harsh. Maybe less accuracy over longer ranges. So you might end up several hundred light years from where you want to go..

The way Evochron handles this is: Stars aren't beacons that you jump to, you actually plot coordinates to reach a system. This means that if you are jumping into a system you haven't visited, it's very possible to jump right into a star, planet, wormhole, black hole, asteroid, etc and blow yourself up. The way you got around this was game knowledge and having a navigation officer on board, which gave you a better chance of not jumping into a death but still did not eliminate the risk. Granted, this wouldn't fit Elite, especially in the current state of the game where tech and lore is established past that point, but it's an example.

I'm not sure how fun this would be in Elite, it actually might be pretty annoying. Perhaps the accuracy thing could use some more discussion. Could be that some systems are subject to anomalies that make them harder to jump to accurately. Though, how do we handle that? RNG? I'm not sure how excited people would be about adding RNG to travel as well. I do like the idea of making travel a bit more dangerous in some ways though, the trick is going to be balancing the risk and reward.

 

[Schmack]

You misunderstand me completely, or are intentionally being pedantic. Anyone is free to go out to Colonia of course, even those who would often be and are called "griefers," PVPs, and the like, and they have, and I congratulate them on their efforts and accomplishments. Either way though, it's nice having goals worthy of bothering to achieve. Making the trip too easy, not just in this case but as a general approach to "progress" within the game, is a missed opportunity for individual and future players in having that thing that is worthy of achieving to them.

This is evident in the thread I was referring to.

But you are considering "worthy to achieve" to mean "spent a lot of time doing the exact same boring things over and over". I don't consider that any achievement - I just consider it a time sink. I go to the community goals, those are worthy to achieve. I don't have to jump for 3 weeks. The ability to withstand repetitive tasks and boredom isn't a desirable ability to me. It's nothing I want to brag about. I don't want to brag that I did it and feel like I'm in some elite company. You did not go through hell week. You went through boredom week. I don't mean you in particular but generally speaking.

 

[WR3ND]

You might not care for it (which is understandable, and to an extent I agree with the points you're making), but currently it's the main thing that sets Colonia apart in significance.

Personally, I'd much prefer varied, challenging, and more interesting travel mechanics than fast travel. Shortcuts for this sort of thing in particular don't really appeal much to me, even if there is some skill involved with them. Of course, having them be more skill based is better than the alternative.

All things considered, this felt pretty rewarding to me...

Spoiler

It's funny to think that that was over a year ago now, as it sands out rather prominently to me in my Elite career.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

But you are considering "worthy to achieve" to mean "spent a lot of time doing the exact same boring things over and over". I don't consider that any achievement - I just consider it a time sink. I go to the community goals, those are worthy to achieve. I don't have to jump for 3 weeks. The ability to withstand repetitive tasks and boredom isn't a desirable ability to me. It's nothing I want to brag about. I don't want to brag that I did it and feel like I'm in some elite company. You did not go through hell week. You went through boredom week. I don't mean you in particular but generally speaking.

Boredom is still a resistance barrier. A boring one but it is still a barrier that doesn't let anybody just take a walk on the park on the way to Colonia.

 

[Stachel]

I think it's safe to say that numbers have increased from Xbox

Not safe at all. Sales figures for the last ED Xbox release shows it sold 1,304 units in the UK before exiting the charts. Anything to show those 1,304 are more than the number of previous UK Xbox players that have quit recently? No.

and PS4 players

The PS4 version of ED died the death within just a few weeks of its horribly botched launch. PS4 players' contribution to the claimed "more and more players" on ED will be insignificant.

my comment regarding the 5 players was to let you know not everyone uses that pile of turd called steam.

Steam stats show 1 million ED players use Steam.

 

[dannysquid]

I think as long as whatever they're doing adds something significant to the game (which I hope it will!) then I don't really care if it makes the journey less arduous. Old hands can always say "when I was a lad it took 2 weeks to get there", which is the main thing people want I suspect!

There will always be new things for explorers to boast about.

 

[WR3ND]

More importantly, worth doing in the first place, and feeling you've accomplished something in doing it. The Repair Jaques Station CG is one of something like three to five CGs in the game that I've bothered doing, since it felt like I was accomplishing something in doing it. Helping build Obsidian Orbital was one of the others. I don't remember what any of the others might have been, so maybe it's just been the two or three. I tried helping SEPP out in the Dangerous Games, but didn't make it back in time. Pulled an all-nighter getting back, but missed it by an hour or two. They were still dropping those credit gems or whatever at the time, but I had less than no interest in that, i.e., it felt gamey and insulting to me.

Regardless, in the game specifically, the galaxy is finite. It isn't getting any bigger to compensate for faster and easier methods of travel around it. I don't really see any point in making it faster and easier either. People don't actually need to travel these distances in the game, but they can if they want to and are up for the "challenge" of it. The only exception to this that I know of being the 5,000 LY requirement to unlock one of the Engineers.

 

[Schmack]

You might not care for it (which is understandable, and to an extent I agree with the points you're making), but currently it's the main thing that sets Colonia apart in significance.

Personally, I'd much prefer varied, challenging, and more interesting travel mechanics than fast travel. Shortcuts for this sort of thing in particular don't really appeal much to me, even if there is some skill involved with them. Of course, having them be more skill based is better than the alternative.

All things considered, this felt pretty rewarding to me...

Spoiler

https://i.imgur.com/FCHTMzS.jpg

It's funny to think that that was over a year ago now, as it sands out rather prominently to me in my Elite career.

I think the bubble is big enough to create a sense of accomplishment just getting from one point to the other. Eventually that's what you want to do. So when you've "discovered" these systems (along with everyone else discovering them sooner or later), your next trip through is because of what, exactly? There has to be some reason to go there. If you're only going to Colonia because it's undesirable to go to, so that makes it somehow an exclusive club (as if the permit systems aren't enough of a class separation already) then you're not playing the same game I am. The game I play has a component called exploration. It doesn't have a component called boredom marathon.

Many games have similar hurdles however. There are "sim" type games out there that force the grind gradient to steepen simply to extend the life of the game to those people who want to squeeze every drop from the game before they move on. There are fishing games that have gone from catching everything on every cast to not catching anything most of the time, just staring at the open water. Like this one, people who are convinced it's always better to wait will swear it adds realism to the game, makes them want to play it more because it means more to actually catch something. In this game, it means more to people to actually arrive at Colonia because they spent so much time getting there. Other than the time sink, there was no skill required to get there that isn't required to get anywhere else.

I just feel like interesting, fun aspects that could be implemented are shunned by people who want to feel exclusive. It's not about their experience exactly, but about how exclusive they can be made to feel about exactly how they did what they did. I think it's great that someone might want to take a 12LY range ship 25K LY out (if it was possible) but it's something I would never do because there's simply no fun in the journey itself. At least if there are stepping stones along the way, one could simply get on the road to Colonia and move along doing things as one might do crossing the country back before rapid transit was possible. That way, 3 weeks might just be you developing reputation across the galaxy, good or bad, as you either flee something or chase something, or simply follow the market through space as supply and demand dictate. Of course, there needs to be something at Colonia, an incredible market of sorts, otherwise you're just driving down a dead end street to get to a cul-de-sac in space where you'll turn around and head back because there's really not much to do (the trip itself, not the destination, was the entire reason for the journey).

Exploring would be interesting if it meant exploring inhabited systems that offered things you cannot get just a few jumps over.

Did Desalle negate Sir Edmund Hillary's achievements? Does it mean those people climbing it manually are foolish? Does someone who takes a jet around the world negate the accomplishment of the person who does a solo in a sailboat? Of course not. The difference here is that gamers always want to be lifted up for their time sink, to be put into a higher echelon of players. Being at Colonia to them means something like that, and there's nothing on their "I love me" wall that says how they got there, therefore the new arrival who steps off the fast track is exactly the same as the commander who spent weeks out in the void, to the casual observer.

 

[Schmack]

Boredom is still a resistance barrier. A boring one but it is still a barrier that doesn't let anybody just take a walk on the park on the way to Colonia.

I've never felt the desire to mine the tons of material the one engineer wants. Is that a barrier as well? By that reasoning, boring games offer the most accomplishment simply because of the boredom barrier challenge.

What's the real challenge, finding the Netflix series you want to watch while turning and scooping? Staying awake? Seriously... and somehow that's something that needs to be protected like Asgard.

 

[ShadowWolf Kell]

A bit OT but what does that do for the integrity of your ship?

I'm always wary of using Neutron Stars 'cos of the damage it incurs.
Or is it a case of jumping and then repairing?

It does damage to your FSD at the minimum, so you definitely want to bring an AFMU.

11m24s you can see Erimus repairing his FSD for the first of several for the video.
[video=youtube;drYrY7Qs3X0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drYrY7Qs3X0[/video]

 

[CaptainSeriousFun]

I like having one game in my library that is as unforgiving as space can be. Liked. Don't dumb it down further FD! You never dumbed down my '84 Elite, no matter how many platforms you put it on. Make the current experience MORE challenging, not less. Those that want it quick and simple have plenty to choose from, across the board.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

I've never felt the desire to mine the tons of material the one engineer wants. Is that a barrier as well? By that reasoning, boring games offer the most accomplishment simply because of the boredom barrier challenge.

What's the real challenge, finding the Netflix series you want to watch while turning and scooping? Staying awake? Seriously... and somehow that's something that needs to be protected like Asgard.

A game based only on boredom will only have boredom. Exploration isn't all about seeing how bored you get but a side effect that also doesn't allow anybody to go to Colonia. The true barrier to go to Colonia is time, currently is mostly boring but I'm hoping FD will somehow make that same time interval to be engaging but for now it is an EuroTruck simulator instead of Forza.

 

[WR3ND]

...

Essential what I'm getting at isn't about exclusivity, but rather opportunity to overcome something significant within this game. I think that is what, for the most part, sets Colonia apart. It's an entirely optional element of the game, so what I'm getting after isn't about limiting what people can do, but rather ensuring an opportunity for those that choose to rise to the occasion. Shortcuts diminish and trivialize this opportunity.

I'm all for more interesting content and travel elements than just jump honking. Some might see that as just further slowing the game down though, unless it's specifically a shortcut, which as mentioned, I'm not fond of in particular. I enjoy the visceral effect of having to travel vast distances across the scale of the galaxy and overcoming them. It makes the game seem more substantial, in a way.

As such, I suppose it would have been better to implement more compelling content and travel mechanics early on, as now there is a precedent for a line to be drawn and people to stand on either side of it, some people not wanting to have to do more things while on route somewhere (I presume), and others not wanting the route itself to take so long and be so monotonous. So, here we are.

I'm not sure how Frontier could best address this issue now without stepping on the toes of their current players.

Regardless, "it takes too long and is too boring," isn't much of a reason to make these journeys shorter for content that is largely optional and doesn't advance players in the game in some significant way. People aren't forced to do this sort of thing if they don't care for it, so might as well leave it for those that do, even though I agree that what we have now isn't ideal.