If Exploration were real - discussion thread.

[GunnerBill]

I'd like to discuss in this thread what it might be like to be an explorer in ED if it were the real deal.

I don't want it to be a game suggestions thread or a moaning thread but just somewhere to throw your thoughts and ideas as to what it may be like for a real explorer in this universe.

To facilitate the discussion I'd like to break it down into some categories (feel free to suggest others)

1. Living The Life. (What's it like to be stuck in your ship, isolation, cabin fever, space madness, day-to-day chores etc.)
2. Ship systems not present. Systems that could be present but are not presently in game.
3. Ships systems undefined. Systems that are in game but lack sufficient detail.
4. Repairs and coping with wear and tear.
5. Supplies/loadout.


I'll start with some thoughts on each of these:

1. Living the Life.

First off a while back I wondered what it would be like to be stuck in your ship for months/years on end. We might never know! I've worked offshore (oil rigs) and the longest I was on a rig site was 4 weeks. And that drove me crazy even though there were many other people to talk too! Now being an explorer wouldn't be like being stuck in a box for all this time. Even the smallest exploration ships are quite big and If you are talking Anacondas...

Would we take family?

Would you take a "holiday" on a long trip? By which I mean do you schedule time off from the jump/honk cycle. Take a few days to chill out on a nicely positioned planet and just admire the view wherever you are?

Can you get sick, if so how? I imagine you would be free of germs/viruses after being sealed in your ship or with help from advanced medicines. But what illness could you get out there? Radiation, mental stress, poor nutrition (by choice not lack of supplies), drug addiction... so things like heart failure, organ failure, accelerated aging, thrombosis from lack of exercise?

Actual injury from accidents etc.

2. Ships systems not present.
Entertainment - Well there would be plenty of room for the gym, the cinema, lounge, luxury accommodation etc. What other entertainment could there be?


3. Ship systems undefined.
Life support - hydroponics module for growing fresh food or would we be boosting vitamin pills and food from tubes?
Life support - is there a sick-bay?

4. Repairs and coping with wear and tear.
Yes we have an AFMU but not all repairs can be down to a machine right? How would you envisage helping your ship to make it through? Crawling along a Jefferies tube ala Geordi La Forge or slumming it in the Engine room with duct tape and spanners like Kaylee Frye? Personally I imagine myself patching the hull with that glue gun straight from Event Horizon (but with a happier ending right?)!

5. Supplies/loadout.
We may need to stock up to resupply our jumponium and our SRV but no consideration has been given to what the pilot needs. Personally my character ran out of months ago...

But seriously I've played Fallout New Vegas and one of the most enjoyable parts of that game was keeping the character fed and hydrated! OK we're in space and the ships are huge so it's fairly sensible that you can load out all those supplies in several boxes and forget about it. But why should we?

Do we have a food synthesiser, after all the minerals are out there just floating around??? Do you imagine messing around with this to improve the taste of your pasta before going to pick some fresh plumb tomatoes from hydroponics? Imagine the quality of the sun dried tomatoes you could make???!!!

So explorers - join in!

 

[iain666]

I strongly suspect if we're still around and exploring the galaxy in 3300 the idea of actually putting humans into the exploration ships out in the black breaking new ground would seem quaint or just plain daft.

We'd not be sending people out unless we knew we had a good colonisation target or a site of exceptional scientific interest.

Maybe that's the secret of the automatic regeneration in the bubble - we're not people at all, we're AIs with a dream of being human and we just revert to the last backup...

 

[GunnerBill]

I strongly suspect if we're still around and exploring the galaxy in 3300 the idea of actually putting humans into the exploration ships out in the black breaking new ground would seem quaint or just plain daft.

We'd not be sending people out unless we knew we had a good colonisation target or a site of exceptional scientific interest.

Maybe that's the secret of the automatic regeneration in the bubble - we're not people at all, we're AIs with a dream of being human and we just revert to the last backup...

Agent Cormac?

 

[Teh Smoo]

I strongly suspect if we're still around and exploring the galaxy in 3300 the idea of actually putting humans into the exploration ships out in the black breaking new ground would seem quaint or just plain daft.

We'd not be sending people out unless we knew we had a good colonisation target or a site of exceptional scientific interest.

Maybe that's the secret of the automatic regeneration in the bubble - we're not people at all, we're AIs with a dream of being human and we just revert to the last backup...

That's the only semi-plausible explanation I've come up with. I've had minor red-outs when landing extremely sloppily, though. Perhaps the AI is in an android? Explains why customizing it is easy.

 

[Aura Lorell]

I strongly suspect if we're still around and exploring the galaxy in 3300 the idea of actually putting humans into the exploration ships out in the black breaking new ground would seem quaint or just plain daft.

We'd not be sending people out unless we knew we had a good colonisation target or a site of exceptional scientific interest.

Maybe that's the secret of the automatic regeneration in the bubble - we're not people at all, we're AIs with a dream of being human and we just revert to the last backup...

We're the feverish creation of an AI controlled by an alien kid with a school project to study the evolution of intelligent organisms in mass scale. A dream within a dream. Reality is a dream and the dream is reality.

 

[Chrystoph]

@OP - Interesting thoughts, but...

Part of the problem with the concept is that Elite is based on fighter philosophy, not on ships. The vessels we fly are not designed for extended operations as shown by the fact that they all have less than 2 days of fuel capacity.

A large portion of any ship is concerned with "endurance" which can be translated as the ability to operate for extended periods. Fighters, on the other hand, are designed to go do the mission and then come back to either the carrier or a base.

Elite suspends a lot of the mechanics required for realism so we can just get away with it, but none of the ships that players have access to are reasonable designs for extended exploration from a realistic perspective.

 

[Aura Lorell]

1. Living The Life. (What's it like to be stuck in your ship, isolation, cabin fever, space madness, day-to-day chores etc.)
2. Ship systems not present. Systems that could be present but are not presently in game.
3. Ships systems undefined. Systems that are in game but lack sufficient detail.
4. Repairs and coping with wear and tear.
5. Supplies/loadout.

1. Living the life is not stuck. It's a choice. To seek new worlds and new civilisations. To boldly go. Into a galaxy that is not barren and has life both intelligent and otherwise. The joy of discovery. The childish happiness of finding what's past that next hill, what the planet looks like from the top of that mountain, what's at the bottom of that canyon. It's a path with a heart. A path to look and look, breathlessly, and the only directive is to traverse it as fully as possible.

2. and 3. The woman strapped on the pilot's chair is only a crude approximation as are the 21st century joysticks to control the ship. A choice for manual override when we want things to be more close and personal. My ship has artificial gravity. A pool. An AI that can fly the ship and talk with me. A hydroponics bay. A kitchen. A small crew that are as passionate as I am about what behind that hill over there. Game room. Relaxation lounge. Communications suites. Scientific laboratories. Engineering department with clever engineers that can make do with what's available. Astrometrics lab. Metallurgy lab. Shuttle bay. Comfortable cabins. Pets. Family.

4. Self sufficient. We use what we find, we have robots to do the hard work fixing the ship outside, the paint of the ship does not wear off for no apparent reason and when it does we can fix it. Metallurgy labs can work out replacement parts, the engineers can patch everything, the ship's AI is ever present and takes care of the human crew.

5. Self sufficient. We make our food, we grow our vegetables, we synthesise food that cannot be grown. We can stay away from civilisation for years. For loadout see 2 and 3.

 

[ForeverN00b]

I would see it as a Star Trek type of set up with food replicators, crew, EVA suits, the SRV of course, and a smaller deployable ship (a ship you sit in, not an SLF).

One poster mentioned the fuel tank size, this could certainly be augmented for extended times in supercruise. This would necessitate a larger ship (I would want 7-10 days of fuel).

Since the real galaxy would have more variety I think having a large fuel tank would be essential to see far out objects. It would also be more dangerous, things such as black holes would have to be treated with care.

It would feel like much more of a voyage if you did not have the hyperspace jumps of the FSD. It makes sense from a gameplay standpoint but I'd like to travel at 2000c between systems as a real space explorer (but still refuel at scoopable stars).

A mix of ED and ST would make for my ideal future exploration vision.

 

[GunnerBill]

Thanks for all your input guys!

2. and 3. The woman strapped on the pilot's chair is only a crude approximation as are the 21st century joysticks to control the ship. A choice for manual override when we want things to be more close and personal. My ship has artificial gravity. A pool. An AI that can fly the ship and talk with me. A hydroponics bay. A kitchen. A small crew that are as passionate as I am about what behind that hill over there. Game room. Relaxation lounge. Communications suites. Scientific laboratories. Engineering department with clever engineers that can make do with what's available. Astrometrics lab. Metallurgy lab. Shuttle bay. Comfortable cabins. Pets. Family.

4. Self sufficient. We use what we find, we have robots to do the hard work fixing the ship outside, the paint of the ship does not wear off for no apparent reason and when it does we can fix it. Metallurgy labs can work out replacement parts, the engineers can patch everything, the ship's AI is ever present and takes care of the human crew.

5. Self sufficient. We make our food, we grow our vegetables, we synthesise food that cannot be grown. We can stay away from civilisation for years. For loadout see 2 and 3.

Dogs in space? Noooooo!! Got enough of them on terra firma

A kitchen... (obviously there's a kitchen/galley!) but I never really thought of that, which is odd as I like cooking! Range cooker & cast iron pans?

I'd also glossed over my thoughts on a proper engineering section and when you mentioned it I immediately thought of a grubby mechanics shop like on our oil rigs. Except I expect it'd be more like the production line in a Porsche factory. No greasy lathes and hammers but laser cutting and 3D printing type things!

I also like the science section idea packed with analysis equipment, spectrometers and the like. Hopefully a set of decreasing sieves for moon dust samples.

I would see it as a Star Trek type of set up with food replicators, crew, EVA suits, the SRV of course, and a smaller deployable ship (a ship you sit in, not an SLF).

One poster mentioned the fuel tank size, this could certainly be augmented for extended times in supercruise. This would necessitate a larger ship (I would want 7-10 days of fuel).

Since the real galaxy would have more variety I think having a large fuel tank would be essential to see far out objects. It would also be more dangerous, things such as black holes would have to be treated with care.

It would feel like much more of a voyage if you did not have the hyperspace jumps of the FSD. It makes sense from a gameplay standpoint but I'd like to travel at 2000c between systems as a real space explorer (but still refuel at scoopable stars).

A mix of ED and ST would make for my ideal future exploration vision.

Fuel tanks, yes. I admit when I first proposed to myself that I go exploring I immediately filled my Anaconda with extra fuel tanks. Obviously the way the game works this is not necessary there being a fuel stop on virtually every corner.

With a larger fuel tank and forgoing a FSD jump; your ship could voyage to systems unreachable by jumping. OK this verges on a suggestion but provided you had the fuel the game could represent this with a transit time similar to ship transfer.

This would require careful use of the astronavigation systems that the ship is fitted with, course corrections would be needed and the engines monitored closely during extended SC.

 

[marx]

I once came up with a system of introducing logistics into the game. It was relatively simple: I'd have to carry various cargo (food cartridges, basic medicines and so on) and periodically "consume" them. (Which just meant jettisoning.) In case I ran out, I'd have to sit somewhere, call for rescue and not move until resupplied. (Alternatively, hard mode: self-destruct.)
This sounded good in theory, because it led to more planning, more interesting ship loadout choices, and an optional social aspect of arranging for others to re-supply you in deep space. I almost posted this, but then I realised that before I did, I should do a trial run instead.

I'm glad I did, because in practice, it turned out to be a simple chore and a matter of bookkeeping after a couple of sessions. While it did involve some more planning, other than that, the only difference it would have made in gameplay would have been if my cargo hatch malfunctioned and spilled some (or all!) of the cargo out.

Perhaps it would have worked better if it was an exploration where everyone signed up to such rules, but in the end, I don't think that any supply mechanics would introduce much better gameplay. Either you can't resupply yourself out there, in which case it just limits how far / long you can go ("blaze your own trail, just don't blaze it beyond 10k ly") or you can, in which case it adds repetitive supply-gathering mechanics. You can try that out in No Man's Sky - I wasn't won over by that aspect.


Oh, and the stuff about loneliness: given that there is instantaneous communication through-out the galaxy, and now holo-me avatars, that could help alleviate loneliness quite a bit.

 

[roboteconomist]

Is there an canon explanation for transmitting data FTL? If so, I'd buy the android explanation.

 

[marx]

Is there an canon explanation for transmitting data FTL? If so, I'd buy the android explanation.

Sure. If memory serves, Michael Brookes' book, Elite: Legacy, mentioned that long-distance communication is done via hyperspace / FSD, with a short time delay. As a more recent in-game example, the monolith network found in the Guardian ruins was said to use FTL communications to form their interstellar internet. If nothing else, then it could just be said that human FTL comms technology was reverse-engineered from that.

 

[UNSEENMAN]

i made a post about this exactly, 2 months ago, in the thead "exploring still sucks". Thinking loud, i know that all of these and other ideas will not be present in game cos people (mayority) dont want complicated things.:


1 - Real jump from point A to point B, its unreal to kown you are traveling from point a to b and know there is only 12 stars and the animation is...nice but not real, Space Engine can do that.

2 - Full planetary landings, exploring is a risk, we do not want to find an alien base in every planet we landed but we want lava, water, mountains, floods, fire, fog..climate dynamic, risks.

3 - Traces, we are humans exploring the galaxy, where are our traces? if a planet have 400 comanders making races over an area in 3 months, this area need to be modified to let traces of all those races, you know, i like to explore a planet in the other side of the galaxy and "maybe" fin traces of another commanders, i said maybe cos is not mandatory to land in the exact area...and heres come 4

4 - Natural climate condition of the planets, maybe some time later this zones are cleared by the winds, sand and water or rain and the traces are erased or not if the planet are desert without wind.

5 - First person walking, E.V.A., in the spaceshift, outside, around, over and under the spaceship, on land and in space... Explore abandoned settlements, alien bases or whatever, we do not want to find a war in every planet we landed but something to bring emotion to exploring. Why not something that says "Commander **** was here" written on a wall?.

6 - Temporary settlements in the landed zone if you have a failure in the ship, but not to claim "this planet is mine forever" but to leave supplies for a limited time if you need to start again from base and want to go to the exact zone to continue exploring, for example, you have motor failure and you have no way to repair it, you land in a planet and if not crashed, finally landing, making an EVA to get all necesary equipment and start from base with the option of temporal safe zone, after a time, the supplies get lost if the commander is not present. and 7

7 - ...Travellers in the galaxy never eat?, we can die in all abominable form, but never eat to survive?, no space in the ship for food?. Ok, how about to find food in earth like planets and store them on the trip??.

8 - Spaceships crashed on land that remain accessible for a time to be ruthlessly torn apart to obtain parts to repair or continue the exploring . you are an explorer fighing for your life, no?, find those spaceship if another history in the luck of humankind.

 

[Allitnil]

Perhaps it would have worked better if it was an exploration where everyone signed up to such rules, but in the end, I don't think that any supply mechanics would introduce much better gameplay. Either you can't resupply yourself out there, in which case it just limits how far / long you can go ("blaze your own trail, just don't blaze it beyond 10k ly") or you can, in which case it adds repetitive supply-gathering mechanics. You can try that out in No Man's Sky - I wasn't won over by that aspect.

You can also try it out in ED. Head to the galactic rim and stay out in the region where you need to use jumponium. Or that matter just use jumponium for nearly most of your jumps wherever you are (a repeated sequence of 3 basic, 2 standard, 1 premium and 4 unboosted jumps would more or less reflect the sort of travel that is required on the edge). It does become repetitive, but the need to search for polonium, etc adds an element of "fog of war" to your progress which is otherwise totally missing in ED. Sadly that element is much reduced from what we had when we first got jumponium which, for me, was the most interesting period of exploration. Knowing the available mats from scanning makes it too much of a certainty that you can keep finding the needed ones forever.

 

[ForeverN00b]

Is there an canon explanation for transmitting data FTL? If so, I'd buy the android explanation.

Maybe quantum teleportation of 1s and 0s? Seems feasible.
Edit: Not lore, but that's my handwavium answer.

 

[ForeverN00b]

You can also try it out in ED. Head to the galactic rim and stay out in the region where you need to use jumponium. Or that matter just use jumponium for nearly most of your jumps wherever you are (a repeated sequence of 3 basic, 2 standard, 1 premium and 4 unboosted jumps would more or less reflect the sort of travel that is required on the edge). It does become repetitive, but the need to search for polonium, etc adds an element of "fog of war" to your progress which is otherwise totally missing in ED. Sadly that element is much reduced from what we had when we first got jumponium which, for me, was the most interesting period of exploration. Knowing the available mats from scanning makes it too much of a certainty that you can keep finding the needed ones forever.

True, but you can't scan the planets in a system until you arrive there. It's still a huge risk to spend your last premium jump mats unless you are backtracking.

 

[Allitnil]

True, but you can't scan the planets in a system until you arrive there. It's still a huge risk to spend your last premium jump mats unless you are backtracking.

That's not risky, it is suicidal. And there's never any good reason for getting into such a situation. Less than 20 polonium? Scan every landable planet until you find a new source. The chances of failure are so remote as to be not worth thinking about.

 

[Aura Lorell]

You can also try it out in ED. Head to the galactic rim and stay out in the region where you need to use jumponium. Or that matter just use jumponium for nearly most of your jumps wherever you are (a repeated sequence of 3 basic, 2 standard, 1 premium and 4 unboosted jumps would more or less reflect the sort of travel that is required on the edge). It does become repetitive, but the need to search for polonium, etc adds an element of "fog of war" to your progress which is otherwise totally missing in ED. Sadly that element is much reduced from what we had when we first got jumponium which, for me, was the most interesting period of exploration. Knowing the available mats from scanning makes it too much of a certainty that you can keep finding the needed ones forever.

Oh, I quite disagree. It was torture to go blind and scan in the vain hope of finding the elements you may need. For me, the best thing that happened in terms of jumponium-era was that we got visibility on the materials per planet. Allowed me to have the most fun in jumponium only areas and still have lots of fun navigating them. Sorry I'm not up for more danger, grind, parallax discoveries, etc. I may not be a "real explorer" ready to carry the burden but I couldn't care less. Perhaps if one had infinite time in their hands, such methods of playing would be valid. But, alas, infinite time is not a concept within my grasp.

Having said that, no one prevents you from playing in exactly that way. You don't have to look at the system map or EDD. Go blind and hope to find what you're looking for.

True, but you can't scan the planets in a system until you arrive there. It's still a huge risk to spend your last premium jump mats unless you are backtracking.

That is not the way to navigate in jumponium-only areas. The only way is to have spare injections of all three types. And to set a minimum amount of injections before you go looking for more mats. Huge risk is unnecessary.

 

[Chrystoph]

I went down the arm I used to discover Perseus Deep until I had exactly enough to retrace my path, then spent a while replenishing stock. I "exhausted" my supplies, but I did it in a way that didn't endanger my expedition.

 

[Kenneth McGrew]

1. Living The Life. (What's it like to be stuck in your ship, isolation, cabin fever, space madness, day-to-day chores etc.)
4. Repairs and coping with wear and tear.
5. Supplies/loadout.


The top three are quite interesting and you can read alot about it in current "exploration" that happens right outside your door, think of people doing the circumnavigation of our oceans in relatively small boats, there are those doing it solo in a ~32ft boat with no support no base camp etc, there are those doing it in a team of 22 in a ~50ft boat with base support via weather reports etc.


in the late 60s the vende globe (312 days at sea was the winning time) without stopping, limited contact (2 way radios and the like were new fangled stuff for sailors other than sending out a position fix, they used to send messages back to home by throwing a bottle with paper in it to shipping vessels in a brief 30 second encounter of pleasantries!)

things people take for granted, Fresh water, batteries, electronics, the weather, just keeping dry! are an everyday concern and struggle.

if your into reading Robin Knox Johnston accounts all his supplies required his repairs on board, and solitude life! and just the daily challenges, or opportunities... i.e. its raining today, "great i needed some drinking water"

here's the returning boat - its in black and white but puts our paint work blemishes to shame.

Bernard Moitessier's story is another great read, he even lists his stock aboard (including lots of rum), same race but he just carried on sailing and didn't cross the finishing line, and this guy had used telegraph poles as his masts!!

Donald Crowhurst, even just a quick Wiki on this guy, again same race but he just floated about the south coast of America and never left the Atlantic, reading his log he wasn't in the best of physiological states and his boat was found washed up on shore some months later, space madness / sea madness

after all cabin fever comes from the sailing!

and there is the bounty and William Blyth this guy kept a diary of his event at sea in an open 26ft boat and travelled back to safety for certain death for many, interestingly his mutinous crew found the Pitcairn islands 1790 (which were drawn in the wrong place on the map and presumed lost / non existent) which were not discovered again until ~ 1808, most of the people living there today are decedents from the mutineers too..

all that said, I would imagine life on-board a space ship very similar to sailing long distance off shore, you need to plan your everyday food and hygiene requirements and conserve your water.
You can't leave your ship unless docked somewhere safe, it can be a small cramped environment.
if you cant fix it yourself, your screwed, that could be sails, hull, engine, water treatment, electronics (jack of all trades!) same for your space ship id imagine.

anyway i've waffled on but its all interesting to me, if FD were to implement any of this into the game via mechanics i dont think it would be enjoyable, there is a game called "the long dark" which is exactly that surviving, lighting fires, collecting wood, cooking food, melting ice, basically you will die in that game its just a matter of time, you aint got time for "exploring" to busy surviving.