[Recruitment] Emergence - Elite Sandbox Alliance

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Hello fellow Elite Commanders.

Emergence, a new multi-game sandbox alliance, is now recruiting like-minded players participating in the Elite: Dangerous beta or ArcheAge alpha (see Other Supported Games below). We are looking for PVP/combat centric players that have a wide array of secondary interests in open world sandboxes. Disclaimer: 18+, must use TS3, website coming soon.

Emergence is based on “emergent gameplay,” a game design term that refers to changing conditions based on player actions. The sum of many simple decisions that lead to complex outcomes; groups of players and their individual actions driving the overall game narrative.

Sandbox Ethos- as a group we emphasize the following:

1) Sandboxes allow a wide range of player actions. Each is valid as long as the game rules allow it.

2) Emergence will be focused on providing its members broad objectives and goals only possible to accomplish with a group of players. See first Post Launch Objective below.

3) Sandbox PVP requires a range of PVP styles – Solo, small group, and med-large groups (less emphasis here due to instancing in Elite). As a result we emphasize effective communication during game encounters as a group.

4) Emergence is committed to supporting individual player choice while also working together as a team.

5) Emergence maintains a very narrow definition on griefing. Griefing constitutes attacking new player starting areas or continually harassing a single specific person for no in-game benefit. These actions are not allowed because they are toxic to a sandbox community and do not encourage new players to stay and play. Everything else is fair game.

Post Launch Objectives- (where possible during beta for testing):

Our current thought process is based on the following information:

An excerpt from Frontier description of the game: "You can trade for profit between systems, ruthlessly pillage and pilfer at any given opportunity, take part in alliances to bring down planetary economies, tipping the balance of power, or simply explore the open world wonders of the galaxy, together or alone." - http://elite.frontier.co.uk/about/

Dev Diary #2 about the Evolving Galaxy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uKD1ap5hsI

Design Discussion Post on the Back Ground simulation: http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=6305

1) Emergence's primary objective will be to influence the background simulation on behalf of the Empire. Based on final game rules, we will seek to defend and expand Empire space to its fullest using whichever mechanics the game rules require. We will do this through Solo, Small (2-7), and Medium (8-16) flight groups in the areas of Combat, Trade, and Exploration as needed. (Faction subject to change based on initial core group of members and/or game conditions on launch)
As an example, to achieve this objective player activities may include, but are not limited to:

i. Blockading a system (dependent on final implementation of instancing, but should be possible to influence the simulation. Possibly spreading out solo and small teams across as many instances and locations as possible)

ii. Destroying ships without warning (e.g., they are potentially bringing trade goods that could stabilize an enemy faction system)

iii. Bounty Hunting to maintain order in Empire space.

iv. Trading and protecting trade runs from pirates (e.g., bringing food/medicine to empire systems that are in a negative state for the simulation)​

2) Emergence will encourage the development of highly effective combat pilots in solo to max group sizes through use of information sharing and theory crafting.

3) We will seek to explore the vastness of the Milky Way galaxy and leverage exploration mechanics to the fullest.

4) Ultimately we play games to have fun as a group. No goals or objectives will ever get in the way of this or RL.

Recruitment Process

Step 1: PM RaynMaykr on the Frontier forums and let me know why you would like to join EMERGENCE.

Step 2: Leave a friendly message in the thread below if you care to.

Step 3: I will follow up with you and set time to speak with you on our TS3.

The Founding of Emergence

RaynMaykr, Moonlitshadows, and Onlyme395, former EVE pilots that lead a 1,200 pilot sovereignty holding alliance for 2+ years, are searching for the next great sandbox adventure. We are looking to meet and game with other players that share the same affinity for sandbox gameplay, the freedom it allows, and the emergent gameplay that ultimately comes. We’re looking for new experiences after spending so much time in EVE. We’re drawn to Elite: Dangerous because of the rich universe and promise the game has shown.

Other Games

Current Games:

Players are welcome to play both, but it is not required.

Elite: Dangerous

We have other friends from EVE that are interested in ArcheAge so we have decided to work together in both. As mentioned players are free to play either one or both.

ArcheAge - F2P Sandbox PVP on the open ocean with ships, subs, and gliders, Themepark-style questing and dungeons with some sandbox thrown in, player created factions and battle for control of land and castles. Currently in Alpha phase of a western localization. Released in Korea for 1+years.

Formerly: EVE Online

Side Games/Changing it up:

Civilization 5 / Beyond Earth (on release)
Sins of a Solar Empire
World of Tanks
War Thunder
Minecraft
Starbound
And other similar games

If the interest is there we would like to do competitions/tournaments in games like Sins & Civ so that players between ArcheAge and Elite can get to know each other.
 
You realize you already have a thread about this? Remember how far south it went?
I had it closed on purpose because of how off topic it got and mentioned we would likely recruit again during the next phase of beta. Regardless of how off topic some people took it... it still served it's purpose and had plenty of people reaching out. The hostility to groups is still baffling to me.

My hope is that the community will start to realize that players will want to group up and do stuff together. Alliances are supported and Frontier advertises that groups can influence the background sim in their own description of the game. To me this is just a logical extension of that.
 
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" groups of players and their individual actions driving the overall game narrative."

What is your narrative? If it is to build the game toward a huge community, then that is good.
 
" groups of players and their individual actions driving the overall game narrative."

What is your narrative? If it is to build the game toward a huge community, then that is good.
We're looking for pilots that want to align with the Empire and have their actions help defend or expand Empire space. As far as game mechanics we're all about the background sim (as I mention in the OP). We'll find places that look like they'll be fun and we can have an impact.

Regarding which EVE alliance we're like... since they're different games I don't think you can really compare. Like a lot of EVE alliances we'll probably be nomadic and move around to where ever the fun is.

Important to note Emergence isn't about executive control, but rather it's ALL about the background sim and also getting involved in other parts of the game.
 
We're looking for pilots that want to align with the Empire and have their actions help defend or expand Empire space. As far as game mechanics we're all about the background sim (as I mention in the OP). We'll find places that look like they'll be fun and we can have an impact.

Regarding which EVE alliance we're like... since they're different games I don't think you can really compare. Like a lot of EVE alliances we'll probably be nomadic and move around to where ever the fun is.

Important to note Emergence isn't about executive control, but rather it's ALL about the background sim and also getting involved in other parts of the game.

When you say Empire, do you mean fighting with the Federation against the rebels, or is your empire another entity that you are bringing into being?
 
When you say Empire, do you mean fighting with the Federation against the rebels, or is your empire another entity that you are bringing into being?
IfUUuDE.png


The bottom one. With the Green.

Although being anti-yellow would work for us, seeing as there is no green (within the sphere) to protect. :(
 
When you say Empire, do you mean fighting with the Federation against the rebels, or is your empire another entity that you are bringing into being?
Michael Brooke's has described the Empire faction as being similar to the Romans. They are a separate faction from the Feds.
 

rootsrat

Volunteer Moderator
As an example, to achieve this objective player activities may include, but are not limited to:
(snip)

ii. Destroying ships without warning (e.g., they are potentially bringing trade goods that could stabilize an enemy faction system)

(Emphasis above mine)

[sarcasm] That sounds great! [/sarcasm]

Exactly the type of players I will put on my ignore list straight away.

Mind making your member list public please?

TIA.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
ii. Destroying ships without warning (e.g., they are potentially bringing trade goods that could stabilize an enemy faction system)

This seems to be seeking to give your group carte blanche to PK / gank ships at will under the guise of your mission statement, i.e. "without warning" as in jumped by a number of ships....

It will be interesting to see how the law deals with this kind of behaviour.

[ninja'd]
 
This seems to be seeking to give your group carte blanche to PK / gank ships at will under the guise of your mission statement, i.e. "without warning" as in jumped by a number of ships....

It will be interesting to see how the law deals with this kind of behaviour.

[ninja'd]
We will work within the game rules. We're not interested in camping noob systems. But will will do things driven by the rules of the simulation.
 

rootsrat

Volunteer Moderator
We will work within the game rules. We're not interested in camping noob systems. But will will do things driven by the rules of the simulation.

That sounds much better, actually.

As long as you can keep your members in control, so that they won't attack just any, quote, "potential" vessels being a threat to the Empire and it's business... In other words find that point of your mission statement an excuse to shoot any ship on sight just because it may or may not carry some cargo...
 
That sounds much better, actually.

As long as you can keep your members in control, so that they won't attack just any, quote, "potential" vessels being a threat to the Empire and it's business... In other words find that point of your mission statement an excuse to shoot any ship on sight just because it may or may not carry some cargo...
Piracy and Murder ("ship destruction") are factors that impact the sim. If we target a system to try and help it lose it's Federation government... We'll do what we have to. It's part of the game. People have to get used to it.
 
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Piracy and Murder ("ship destruction") are fCtors that impact the sim. If we target a system to try and help it lose it's Federation government... We'll do what we have to. It's part of the game. People have to get used to it.

Okay, it's just me now. You know that I know what you have in mind. When you two say "It's part of the game," I genuinely want to know what YOUR game is. You are making a call for metagaming in my eyes and maybe my eyes only.

If I was a diplomat, or a spy, I would be trying to find out what your grand goal is. Domination over other players seems to be great fun to some gamers. I get that. I'm one of Seattle's 12th MAN members of the Seahawks. I was front and center at the 3/4 million people SuperBowl parade. RAWR!

My question is about growing the game. Since you offer Eve as your expertise (kudos) can you tell me what you think your responsibility is toward the game as a whole and the community in particular?

EVE stopped growing at some point in the domination race to the top. New players were targeted. I won't easily forget working in an ice field waiting to die for no other reason than I existed. And I was in the game for over 7 years. You would do well to admit that the Eve community got somewhat facepalm depressed. I guess that's partly why you are over here now. We could agree on what the tone in the game became. I pray we gamers are more mature now.

If the health and growth of elite itself was part of how you see your role in gaming, I would be quite happy thinking about your impact.

So, I guess the question is: what are you planning to achieve should you get the domination you seek? You show not the slightest concern about anyone's feelings. heh. I get that, too.

If I was your grandmother, and I'm old enough to be, would you want your beloved angel to encounter you in this game, or would you say...uh...grandmother, dear one, you should go play hello, kitty for your own peace of mind.

You are in-your-face sayng "People have to get used to it."

You are saying this to players who have been in Elite since the Commodore 64. Were you even alive in the 70s?

I totally understand how a great EVE alliance leader would be a bit prickly. Your fellow alliance leaders have trashed EVE's reputation and kept the population down.

I'm digging around here, hoping domination and destruction is not all you are about; that you actually care about the elite community.

Throw me a bone, here. Thank you.
 
Okay, it's just me now. You know that I know what you have in mind. When you two say "It's part of the game," I genuinely want to know what YOUR game is. You are making a call for metagaming in my eyes and maybe my eyes only.

If I was a diplomat, or a spy, I would be trying to find out what your grand goal is. Domination over other players seems to be great fun to some gamers. I get that. I'm one of Seattle's 12th MAN members of the Seahawks. I was front and center at the 3/4 million people SuperBowl parade. RAWR!

My question is about growing the game. Since you offer Eve as your expertise (kudos) can you tell me what you think your responsibility is toward the game as a whole and the community in particular?

EVE stopped growing at some point in the domination race to the top. New players were targeted. I won't easily forget working in an ice field waiting to die for no other reason than I existed. And I was in the game for over 7 years. You would do well to admit that the Eve community got somewhat facepalm depressed. I guess that's partly why you are over here now. We could agree on what the tone in the game became. I pray we gamers are more mature now.

If the health and growth of elite itself was part of how you see your role in gaming, I would be quite happy thinking about your impact.

So, I guess the question is: what are you planning to achieve should you get the domination you seek? You show not the slightest concern about anyone's feelings. heh. I get that, too.

If I was your grandmother, and I'm old enough to be, would you want your beloved angel to encounter you in this game, or would you say...uh...grandmother, dear one, you should go play hello, kitty for your own peace of mind.

You are in-your-face sayng "People have to get used to it."

You are saying this to players who have been in Elite since the Commodore 64. Were you even alive in the 70s?

I totally understand how a great EVE alliance leader would be a bit prickly. Your fellow alliance leaders have trashed EVE's reputation and kept the population down.

I'm digging around here, hoping domination and destruction is not all you are about; that you actually care about the elite community.

Throw me a bone, here. Thank you.
I will respond to your post properly when I'm not fumbling around on a phone.
 
Okay, it's just me now. You know that I know what you have in mind. When you two say "It's part of the game," I genuinely want to know what YOUR game is. You are making a call for metagaming in my eyes and maybe my eyes only.

If I was a diplomat, or a spy, I would be trying to find out what your grand goal is. Domination over other players seems to be great fun to some gamers. I get that. I'm one of Seattle's 12th MAN members of the Seahawks. I was front and center at the 3/4 million people SuperBowl parade. RAWR!

My question is about growing the game. Since you offer Eve as your expertise (kudos) can you tell me what you think your responsibility is toward the game as a whole and the community in particular?

EVE stopped growing at some point in the domination race to the top. New players were targeted. I won't easily forget working in an ice field waiting to die for no other reason than I existed. And I was in the game for over 7 years. You would do well to admit that the Eve community got somewhat facepalm depressed. I guess that's partly why you are over here now. We could agree on what the tone in the game became. I pray we gamers are more mature now.

If the health and growth of elite itself was part of how you see your role in gaming, I would be quite happy thinking about your impact.

So, I guess the question is: what are you planning to achieve should you get the domination you seek? You show not the slightest concern about anyone's feelings. heh. I get that, too.

If I was your grandmother, and I'm old enough to be, would you want your beloved angel to encounter you in this game, or would you say...uh...grandmother, dear one, you should go play hello, kitty for your own peace of mind.

You are in-your-face sayng "People have to get used to it."

You are saying this to players who have been in Elite since the Commodore 64. Were you even alive in the 70s?

I totally understand how a great EVE alliance leader would be a bit prickly. Your fellow alliance leaders have trashed EVE's reputation and kept the population down.

I'm digging around here, hoping domination and destruction is not all you are about; that you actually care about the elite community.

Throw me a bone, here. Thank you.
Ok... long day at work over here we go...

After reading your post here are a few things that pop out at me. I'll try and answer each one the best I can.

1) EVE is EVERYWHERE!
2) What is "MY" Elite going to be
3) Metagame
4) My elders would be ashamed.
5) My duty to the community
6) DOMINATION!
7) The extent of my caring
8) EVE alliance leaders have trashed EVE
9) Total Annihilation!


1) EVE is EVERYWHERE - I think this community needs to drop the oh-****-EVE mentality. You played it... I played it. About the only things in common are the setting and that we can put cargo in a ship. Most long time players of EVE have the rest of their gaming experiences changed in some way. For some it's the cut throat back-stabbing. For others it's the organizational skills (if done well) that translate to the real world. For me personally it's a combination of things. I sort of viewed it as a organization/business simulator since it applies to my career. It started to also become a diplomatic/military simulator/RTS after our group moved to null-sec and grew to a few constellations. I aso view character builds in a lot of RPGs in terms of fitting a ship. e.g., passive shield regen, brick tanking, etc... I also find myself using a lot of EVE terms for things in other games since it's what I'm used to. Not much is the same... and I'm not advocating for game rules to be changed here so that Elite becomes more like EVE. There are some common sandbox MMO things I think might be cool here, but it's not to make this game like EVE. Been there... done that.

2) What is my game going to be - I included these references in my OP, but I'll include them again plus a couple of more.

a) An excerpt from the Frontier website describing the game: "You can trade for profit between systems, ruthlessly pillage and pilfer at any given opportunity, take part in alliances to bring down planetary economies, tipping the balance of power, or simply explore the open world wonders of the galaxy, together or alone." - http://elite.frontier.co.uk/about/

b) A dev post about the range of player roles: http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showpost.php?p=147803&postcount=138 This is specifically about scamming/griefing but I simply view it that the devs are NOT designing this game for us to follow some Elite-Old-Guard Bushido code.

c) Dev Diary #2 of David giving an overview of the background Sim:Dev Diary #2 about the Evolving Galaxy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uKD1ap5hsI

d) The DDA thread on the Background sim: http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=6305
An excerpt on factors that impact entities (planets/systems) :

Security

Negative impact
Piracy
Murder
Failed security missions

Positive impact
Bounties collected
Completed security missions

So based on what's in the current build blowing up players ships will cause them to fail missions, murder is pretty obvious, and piracy. Now in the example David uses in Dev Diary #2... If we're siding with the Empire and a Fed system is in Famine and we want to try and get the Empire to take over that system we should ensure as many negative impact items from the list happen since a world in famine can be kept there by player actions. We will also attempt to impact positive effects within Empire space if we're defending an Empire system.

3) Metagame - The only metagame we're looking for is related to the items outlined in in #2 and those are all things communicated by Frontier. A LOT of the current community members seem to gloss over this or expect people to ignore them. Now metagame means different things in different games. In EVE is crazy what meta game is and I don't expect that type of meta game to happen on that scale. Forum sniping and winning arguments is not metagame.

The more accurate thing to describe what we're looking for is emergent gameplay. It's thrown around alot about EVE, but to us it's more about how it applies to sandboxes. My hope is that as the community grows and more Alliances are formed... there will be other groups doing what we're doing and we'll have some emergent content created because the background sim as it evolves pits us as adversaries because of our self-defined goals in relation to the sim.

4) My Elders would be ashamed - Yeah I don't care about that at all. This is a game where players can role play and our goals are easily within the rules of the game as they've been communicated to us.

5) My duty to the community - I don't really think I have a duty at all. I DO hope to see a great community as the game grows. I think the current community is not representative of what it will be on full release and beyond. The current community is a little narrow minded and seems to be selectively listening to features. That is my interpretation of what is going on. I do believe stronger social elements in modern games extend their life significantly so if I can encourage other groups to form than I will likely to do that if the opportunity arises.

6) DOMINATION - The domination you're referring to is EVE-style domination. I'm not looking for that. IF people view what we're doing as an attempt to dominate then so be it. I don't mind being the big bad wolf and the people we've been bringing in certainly don't mind either. Just remember that quote from the Frontier description of Elite: "ruthlessly pillage and pilfer at any given opportunity, take part in alliances to bring down planetary economies, tipping the balance of power"

7) The extent of my caring - We're playing withing the game rules so I don't care at all what other people think. There are features Frontier is putting in the game for people that care that I don't care.

8) EVE alliance leaders have trashed EVE - Well Yes and No to a degree. CCP clearly set up the game rules and states that back stabbing and turning on your fellow pirates is a core thing of the game. Game rules and mechanics are also set up for it. The game is also set up to drive null-sec to the 2 major powers it has now. CCP advertised and designed it... it's not surprising the community they have. I personally have nothing against it. Me and the alliance we had there had a lot of fun. We voluntarily shut down our null sec holdings because null sec was clearly stagnating and the executive control simulator game became not fun for the core leadership. fun for awhile but it ran it's course, and we did well for how we started in null and where we ended.

9) TOTAL ANNIHILATION - Coming to a system near you... based on game rules and game design as implemented by FDev!
 
Ok... long day at work over here we go...

After reading your post here are a few things that pop out at me. I'll try and answer each one the best I can.

1) EVE is EVERYWHERE!
2) What is "MY" Elite going to be
3) Metagame
4) My elders would be ashamed.
5) My duty to the community
6) DOMINATION!
7) The extent of my caring
8) EVE alliance leaders have trashed EVE
9) Total Annihilation!


1) EVE is EVERYWHERE - I think this community needs to drop the oh-****-EVE mentality. You played it... I played it. About the only things in common are the setting and that we can put cargo in a ship. Most long time players of EVE have the rest of their gaming experiences changed in some way. For some it's the cut throat back-stabbing. For others it's the organizational skills (if done well) that translate to the real world. For me personally it's a combination of things. I sort of viewed it as a organization/business simulator since it applies to my career. It started to also become a diplomatic/military simulator/RTS after our group moved to null-sec and grew to a few constellations. I aso view character builds in a lot of RPGs in terms of fitting a ship. e.g., passive shield regen, brick tanking, etc... I also find myself using a lot of EVE terms for things in other games since it's what I'm used to. Not much is the same... and I'm not advocating for game rules to be changed here so that Elite becomes more like EVE. There are some common sandbox MMO things I think might be cool here, but it's not to make this game like EVE. Been there... done that.

2) What is my game going to be - I included these references in my OP, but I'll include them again plus a couple of more.

a) An excerpt from the Frontier website describing the game: "You can trade for profit between systems, ruthlessly pillage and pilfer at any given opportunity, take part in alliances to bring down planetary economies, tipping the balance of power, or simply explore the open world wonders of the galaxy, together or alone." - http://elite.frontier.co.uk/about/

b) A dev post about the range of player roles: http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showpost.php?p=147803&postcount=138 This is specifically about scamming/griefing but I simply view it that the devs are NOT designing this game for us to follow some Elite-Old-Guard Bushido code.

c) Dev Diary #2 of David giving an overview of the background Sim:Dev Diary #2 about the Evolving Galaxy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uKD1ap5hsI

d) The DDA thread on the Background sim: http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=6305
An excerpt on factors that impact entities (planets/systems) :

Security

Negative impact
Piracy
Murder
Failed security missions

Positive impact
Bounties collected
Completed security missions

So based on what's in the current build blowing up players ships will cause them to fail missions, murder is pretty obvious, and piracy. Now in the example David uses in Dev Diary #2... If we're siding with the Empire and a Fed system is in Famine and we want to try and get the Empire to take over that system we should ensure as many negative impact items from the list happen since a world in famine can be kept there by player actions. We will also attempt to impact positive effects within Empire space if we're defending an Empire system.

3) Metagame - The only metagame we're looking for is related to the items outlined in in #2 and those are all things communicated by Frontier. A LOT of the current community members seem to gloss over this or expect people to ignore them. Now metagame means different things in different games. In EVE is crazy what meta game is and I don't expect that type of meta game to happen on that scale. Forum sniping and winning arguments is not metagame.

The more accurate thing to describe what we're looking for is emergent gameplay. It's thrown around alot about EVE, but to us it's more about how it applies to sandboxes. My hope is that as the community grows and more Alliances are formed... there will be other groups doing what we're doing and we'll have some emergent content created because the background sim as it evolves pits us as adversaries because of our self-defined goals in relation to the sim.

4) My Elders would be ashamed - Yeah I don't care about that at all. This is a game where players can role play and our goals are easily within the rules of the game as they've been communicated to us.

5) My duty to the community - I don't really think I have a duty at all. I DO hope to see a great community as the game grows. I think the current community is not representative of what it will be on full release and beyond. The current community is a little narrow minded and seems to be selectively listening to features. That is my interpretation of what is going on. I do believe stronger social elements in modern games extend their life significantly so if I can encourage other groups to form than I will likely to do that if the opportunity arises.

6) DOMINATION - The domination you're referring to is EVE-style domination. I'm not looking for that. IF people view what we're doing as an attempt to dominate then so be it. I don't mind being the big bad wolf and the people we've been bringing in certainly don't mind either. Just remember that quote from the Frontier description of Elite: "ruthlessly pillage and pilfer at any given opportunity, take part in alliances to bring down planetary economies, tipping the balance of power"

7) The extent of my caring - We're playing withing the game rules so I don't care at all what other people think. There are features Frontier is putting in the game for people that care that I don't care.

8) EVE alliance leaders have trashed EVE - Well Yes and No to a degree. CCP clearly set up the game rules and states that back stabbing and turning on your fellow pirates is a core thing of the game. Game rules and mechanics are also set up for it. The game is also set up to drive null-sec to the 2 major powers it has now. CCP advertised and designed it... it's not surprising the community they have. I personally have nothing against it. Me and the alliance we had there had a lot of fun. We voluntarily shut down our null sec holdings because null sec was clearly stagnating and the executive control simulator game became not fun for the core leadership. fun for awhile but it ran it's course, and we did well for how we started in null and where we ended.

9) TOTAL ANNIHILATION - Coming to a system near you... based on game rules and game design as implemented by FDev!

Well, some people understand what I mean and sometimes people spin it in a negative, sarcastic way. I'm not going to bother with that. I have no control over how you receive what someone else says. Nor do I want to.

I'm really glad and I appreciate that you went to all this trouble to answer. I don't really see anything new or troubling. I just see you are "dug in" and you answered my question about how you see your relationship to the rest of the community. Not your first concern.

You say you want the game to grow. That's what I wanted to hear. That has been my only constant whine, that the game will grow.

Now that I've been in solo, I'm incredibly relieved at how great it is. The NPCs are not clustered in a deadspace. As they drifted in, it was totally believable. Oh yea, they are going to kick my ass, but it won't get them off. That actually makes me smile. :D

Thanks again. Every game needs your drive and I will be glad to look back at this in the future and have a good laugh and a toast to elite's great success.
 
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