PvP PvP - Fixed vs Gimballed Weapons

[StiTch]

1v1mebro is a perjorative term for someone who thinks 1v1s are anything more than outfitting battles. Engineers put a HUGE amount of variability into loadouts, meaning that you can potentially drop into a fight you cannot possibly win, due to outfitting alone. An example would be a Clipper with long-range lasers fighting a frag gunship. The clipper can fly backwards faster than the gunship can fly forwards, so the clipper wins. This is an extreme example, but counters like that exist all over the PvP arena. The only "valid" 1v1 is pretty much a mirror loadout: same mods, same weps.

Aye. I am baffled by believers that rock/paper/scissors is indicative of good gameplay. If you use a plasma/fb rail ferdie and happen to meet an iCutter you'll leave it rekt, but if you happen to encounter an iCourier it'll leave you rekt. Hell, a match can be won on as much as whether a ship happened to bring a FB rail or a super pen rail instead.

I remember once a dev stating that a strongly set but enjoyable meta is the best form of PvP as it ensures the match is won on skill. I half mocked him at the time, but when 2.1 dropped I really got the feels for where he was coming from </3

 

[ryan_m]

Aye. I am baffled by believers that rock/paper/scissors is indicative of good gameplay. If you use a plasma/fb rail ferdie and happen to meet an iCutter you'll leave it rekt, but if you happen to encounter an iCourier it'll leave you rekt. Hell, a match can be won on as much as whether a ship happened to bring a FB rail or a super pen rail instead.

I remember once a dev stating that a strongly set but enjoyable meta is the best form of PvP as it ensures the match is won on skill. I half mocked him at the time, but when 2.1 dropped I really got the feels for where he was coming from </3

I'd agree with that, to an extent. Having only one viable loadout is boring, because every fight is the same, so there need to be other viable builds. I 100% agree that you want to win because of skill, not RNG or loadouts. It's much more rewarding, and the reason that good PvP pilots stay away from insta-win stuff like heat/healing/etc.

 

[ALGOMATIC]

Aye. I am baffled by believers that rock/paper/scissors is indicative of good gameplay. If you use a plasma/fb rail ferdie and happen to meet an iCutter you'll leave it rekt, but if you happen to encounter an iCourier it'll leave you rekt. Hell, a match can be won on as much as whether a ship happened to bring a FB rail or a super pen rail instead.

I remember once a dev stating that a strongly set but enjoyable meta is the best form of PvP as it ensures the match is won on skill. I half mocked him at the time, but when 2.1 dropped I really got the feels for where he was coming from </3

Its a matter of opinion, but I find engineers help to diversify the builds and each fight is unique, sure there are unbalanced fights of long range vs short range weapons as an example given above, but so what, by far not all have those extremes.

 

[StiTch]

I'd agree with that, to an extent. Having only one viable loadout is boring, because every fight is the same, so there need to be other viable builds. I 100% agree that you want to win because of skill, not RNG or loadouts. It's much more rewarding, and the reason that good PvP pilots stay away from insta-win stuff like heat/healing/etc.

Incidentally they're the grounds I tried to refute him on; I've always idealised the notion of loadout customisation in any competitive game. Being able to develop your own technique that avoids cheesing, but uses an unconventional/sneaky edge to win, is what I'd class as "ideal" PvP...

Its a matter of opinion, but I find engineers help to diversify the builds and each fight is unique, sure there are unbalanced fights of long range vs short range weapons as an example given above, but so what, by far not all have those extremes.

...and thusly the problem. I don't disagree there's more build diversity at all. The issue is more accurately that with the mods/effects we have, a given build on the spectrum will typically gain such an inherent but mindless advantage over another that most of the skill is removed from the fight.

Referring to the example above, a ship with a single FB rail against an SCB boat has a weapon that can deal the equivalent of thousands of MJ extra damage in a few shots. Against a hybrid, you may as well deactivate the railgun over bringing a super pen rail, which would conversely put a knife in their major modules in alphabetical order.

So if I take out an iCutter and meet a FDL, I could play like a boss and lose because they brought a FB rail, or play like a tool and win because they didn't happen to bring any SCB counters. Diverse, perhaps. Engaging?

 

[ryan_m]

I don't quite get why you're still banging the anti-heat drum. Didn't they fix that already?

I've never really liked flying in a wing myself, and I'm not be the best PvP pilot out there by any stretch. But I've recently taken to attacking wings when I'm alone.

It does get a little old when they have healing lasers, I'll grant you that. But the salt it generates is epic.

The Clipper equipped with long range pulse lasers and the heat effect is my favorite ship for this right now, although I'm getting some FDL practice in there as well.

TiltControls got all uppity with me about using a couple heat cannons on my FDL in Quince of all places.

I still don't get that. Quincers deserve worse than a little heat spike (although this does make me a bit of a hypocrite, having used Quince scan missions for gathering CIF).

They literally just fixed heat in this patch. After the last "fix", heat cannons were still broken, which is why you didn't receive a great welcome. One huge heat cannon can spike a ship to 200% heat with a single shot, which is obviously broken.

 

[ryan_m]

I get that, and I knew it when I was using them. What I'm saying is that the area provides the context as for why I was using them.

Not whining about it or anything, TiltControls is a good pilot. He would probably kill me one on one right now in equally matched meta FDL's.

I don't have that rail accuracy nailed down yet.

Just wondering at the inflexible attitude you guys have inspired. And you did paint all heat weapons with a broad stroke there.

Hey man, you're more than welcome to use broken weapons against people and claim wins, but you'll get no love from the greater PvP community for doing it. Same with using premium ammo.

 

[ryan_m]

And most importantly, I think, is that by using broken weapons to get easy wins, you're actually robbing yourself of progress. You don't get better by using heat cannons.

 

[ryan_m]

Now who's being a hypocrite? I seem to remember a recent vid where one of your newer members used premium ammo, and made a point of showing that he used it to ensure an easy gank. This newer member may or may not have been mentioned in my previous post.



Now you're being deliberately obtuse. I was trolling Quince with them. I never said I was using them to get better at anything... but you know that.

Using it in mutual combat is the context here, not ganking. If you and I agree to a 1v1 and you use premium, I'd consider that bad sportsmanship because the norm is no premium. Also, if you think that premium ammo was the difference maker in any recent gank you've seen, you have some learning to do.

No one cares about what you do when you're trolling (see Spicybois), but most people won't use them on other PvPers. If you choose to use them, be prepared for the fallout.

 

[Truesilver]

1v1mebro is a perjorative term for someone who thinks 1v1s are anything more than outfitting battles. Engineers put a HUGE amount of variability into loadouts, meaning that you can potentially drop into a fight you cannot possibly win, due to outfitting alone. An example would be a Clipper with long-range lasers fighting a frag gunship. The clipper can fly backwards faster than the gunship can fly forwards, so the clipper wins. This is an extreme example, but counters like that exist all over the PvP arena. The only "valid" 1v1 is pretty much a mirror loadout: same mods, same weps.

Two things amuse me (perhaps a bit more negative than 'amuse', tbh) about the whole 1v1 supremacy via 2.1 outfitting thing:

1. Anyone who's serious about getting some good 1v1's actually has to walk a tightrope in outfitting. Like, build to win but don't get silly, or you'll never get a fight. I mean, the guy who goes FAS hunting at a CG with his stacked packhounds and emissive is only going to get to fight baby FAS. They guy who goes for corrosive plus super pen is still basically carrying out a one-sided execution but he has much more chance of getting a duel.

2. It's actually impossible now for anyone, anywhere, to have an arranged duel without also pre-agreeing the builds. The days when you could be confident in your build and take on all comers are simply history. Literally any wannabe with half-decent skills could, within 24 hours, build a hard counter to any experienced pilot's preferred build and then troll him to death.

Just wondering at the inflexible attitude you guys have inspired. And you did paint all heat weapons with a broad stroke there.

The move towards a PvP Orthodoxy, epitomised probably by SDC and my old buddies, AA, and their collective view on what are or are not acceptable outfitting and tactics, is an interesting topic and one that one day might benefit from a mature discussion (... heh ...)

However, what we should all bear in mind, wherever we fall on the SDC/AA v 13th Legion/BBfA outfitting spectrum of opinion, imo, is this:

The only reason that players are having to come up with a balanced game and enforce it via peer pressure is because after 2.1 the Developer has demonstrably been unable to do that.

Straight up, hands down - this is 100% the Developer's fault.

I am basically a Frontier fanboy but for 2.1. But I am not going to stop calling attention to the fact that 2.1 is a huge millstone around this game's neck. And it's no coincidence that this whole orthodoxy thing began after 2.1. It had to.

Case in point - the never materialising Icarus Cup. It's an indictment of the game balance that if it ever happens, it won't be fought playing Elite Dangerous, but instead playing a different game with bolted on rules to try to achieve some semblance of balance ... just like the PvP League has to be.

 

[ryan_m]

The move towards a PvP Orthodoxy, epitomised probably by SDC and my old buddies, AA, and their collective view on what are or are not acceptable outfitting and tactics, is an interesting topic and one that one day might benefit from a mature discussion (... heh ...)

However, what we should all bear in mind, wherever we fall on the SDC/AA v 13th Legion/BBfA outfitting spectrum of opinion, imo, is this:

The only reason that players are having to come up with a balanced game and enforce it via peer pressure is because after 2.1 the Developer has demonstrably been unable to do that.

Straight up, hands down - this is 100% the Developer's fault.

I am basically a Frontier fanboy but for 2.1. But I am not going to stop calling attention to the fact that 2.1 is a huge millstone around this game's neck. And it's no coincidence that this whole orthodoxy thing began after 2.1. It had to.

Case in point - the never materialising Icarus Cup. It's an indictment of the game balance that if it ever happens, it won't be fought playing Elite Dangerous, but instead playing a different game with bolted on rules to try to achieve some semblance of balance ... just like the PvP League has to be.

100% agreed. The main issue, I think, is the lack of quick-response patches for broken weapon mechanics. It's been over a year now that heat has been broken and it's only JUST been fixed. Shield inflation is also a huge issue that has yet to be addressed. 1v1s routinely end with both sides running out of ammo now.

 

[Mohrgan]

Just as a bit of perspective, even before the Heat Meta, and Engineering there was a battle for PvP orthodoxy. Has everyone, in their animus for the Engineers, forgotten the SR Rail-De-Lance being labeled a 'Cancer Build', and roundly denounced by those who didn't enjoy or excel at that meta? Well, I do. I also remember how FD absolutely curb stomped that build soon after. During the Combat Beta, where the original Heat Meta was neutered, there was a concerted effort by those in the PvP upper-strata to control what the Meta would be, coming out of that Beta.

The point to this post is to remind us, that there has always been a circular debate going on about balance, and the current Meta. It will never stop.

 

[Mohrgan]

100% agreed. The main issue, I think, is the lack of quick-response patches for broken weapon mechanics. It's been over a year now that heat has been broken and it's only JUST been fixed. Shield inflation is also a huge issue that has yet to be addressed. 1v1s routinely end with both sides running out of ammo now.

The Heat Meta was addressed, with it's own Beta period. Even the Cannon issue was discussed. Shield inflation seems to be a feature. Two attempts at reducing shield values have not seen it come to pass, because of the impasse between PvE and PvP needs and sensibilities.

Early in Elite's release cycle, there was a period where FD released many patches as things came up, and they were rounded on by the players to let things stand for a while, all of the changes were putting the players off. Just face it, not everyone can be satisfied with one solution to an issue.

 

[ryan_m]

Just as a bit of perspective, even before the Heat Meta, and Engineering there was a battle for PvP orthodoxy. Has everyone, in their animus for the Engineers, forgotten the SR Rail-De-Lance being labeled a 'Cancer Build', and roundly denounced by those who didn't enjoy or excel at that meta? Well, I do. I also remember how FD absolutely curb stomped that build soon after. During the Combat Beta, where the original Heat Meta was neutered, there was a concerted effort by those in the PvP upper-strata to control what the Meta would be, coming out of that Beta.

The point to this post is to remind us, that there has always been a circular debate going on about balance, and the current Meta. It will never stop.

The main problem people had with SR Rail-de-Lance was that it made wing fights an absolute nightmare. 20 unresolved targets with black friday paint all boosting around trying to hit each other with rails. It was such an overpowered build, you weren't viable in anything else, which is where the hate came from.

The meta tends towards optimal builds without cheese, which is what high-level PvPers want. No one wants to win a fight because you got your heat effect seekers off first. You'll always have people trying to be elitist with their builds (fixed only/FAO only), but most of the time, those tend to be the most balanced builds that have to be flown with skill in order to win.

 

[ryan_m]

The Heat Meta was addressed, with it's own Beta period. Even the Cannon issue was discussed. Shield inflation seems to be a feature. Two attempts at reducing shield values have not seen it come to pass, because of the impasse between PvE and PvP needs and sensibilities.

Early in Elite's release cycle, there was a period where FD released many patches as things came up, and they were rounded on by the players to let things stand for a while, all of the changes were putting the players off. Just face it, not everyone can be satisfied with one solution to an issue.

I'm fully expecting a shield re-work in the coming QoL patch. I think FDev are hesitant to pull the trigger in a normal patch because they felt they didn't have enough time to get it done "right", so it's better to push it until a QoL patch they know is coming instead.

There's a happy medium, I think, with balance passes. Every week is way too often, every 6 months is not often enough. 2-3 months seems like a decent amount of time to let a meta develop and find problems to balance.

 

[Mohrgan]

The main problem people had with SR Rail-de-Lance was that it made wing fights an absolute nightmare. 20 unresolved targets with black friday paint all boosting around trying to hit each other with rails. It was such an overpowered build, you weren't viable in anything else, which is where the hate came from.

The meta tends towards optimal builds without cheese, which is what high-level PvPers want. No one wants to win a fight because you got your heat effect seekers off first. You'll always have people trying to be elitist with their builds (fixed only/FAO only), but most of the time, those tend to be the most balanced builds that have to be flown with skill in order to win.

It doesn't matter what problem people had with the Rail-d-Lance, the point was about how there is an ever moving target for balance. No one is satisfied for long. I don;t see any of the current Meta PvP builds being good for anything other than combat now. What do you expect a FdL to be good at anyway?

Now, the Meta forces, through peer pressure, a trend towards what ever build, and with what ever cheese, is the currently acceptable meta. Your statement here is a romantic vision. Just as often people are only looking for the most effective, rather than the most chivalrous build.

 

[Mohrgan]

I'm fully expecting a shield re-work in the coming QoL patch. I think FDev are hesitant to pull the trigger in a normal patch because they felt they didn't have enough time to get it done "right", so it's better to push it until a QoL patch they know is coming instead.

There's a happy medium, I think, with balance passes. Every week is way too often, every 6 months is not often enough. 2-3 months seems like a decent amount of time to let a meta develop and find problems to balance.

FD have tested means to reduce shield strengths at least twice now. Both times it was abandoned. Even after a Combat balance pass with it's own Beta period, and much conversation on the issue. I would expect similar to happen again. There is an impasse between what PvE'ers and PvP'ers want in this regard, and a bridge between the two view points hasn't been reached.

I agree, there is a balance point, we just haven't seen it yet. I was only attempting to interject some historical perspective to the current conversation.

 

[ryan_m]

It doesn't matter what problem people had with the Rail-d-Lance, the point was about how there is an ever moving target for balance. No one is satisfied for long. I don;t see any of the current Meta PvP builds being good for anything other than combat now. What do you expect a FdL to be good at anyway?

Now, the Meta forces, through peer pressure, a trend towards what ever build, and with what ever cheese, is the currently acceptable meta. Your statement here is a romantic vision. Just as often people are only looking for the most effective, rather than the most chivalrous build.

Why would a PvP meta FDL need to be good at anything other than combat? Of course you want what's effective, but there are things that are too effective, like heat, that most groups will self-police from their members.

 

[Truesilver]

@Mohrgan, I think the whole question as ever is one of degree.

By 1.4, all that was really needed was a tweak to reduce the dominance of full SCB builds.

With 1.5, the SCB thing was actually the same 1v1, but another tweak was needed to reduce the dominance of the SR rail tank in wings. (Which was itself the product of hasty changes to heat mechanics and FdL properties, swiftly implemented without prior consultation in Beta 1.5.)

But small and careful nudges were all that was required in a game that was, for such a young project, commendably well balanced.

Look again at my well-trodden damage tables here...

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/246086-Official-FDev-Damage-Stats-for-Every-Weapon

...and I would argue that you'll see something admirable. A real achievement on the part of the Developers.

Then 2.1 game along and effectively overlayed a whole fresh game - one, with respect, that had clearly not received one tenth of the time or mature consideration of the first game - on top of that.

Before 2.1 we had a watch mechanism - not a perfect one, but a precise one all the same.

Now we have a watch mechanism that's been through a washing machine.

 

[ryan_m]

Spicy bois worked, bro. Let it go.

It didn't, which is the entire point. Heat got fixed yesterday, almost a year after Spicybois 1.0. It's a great example of the PvP community self-policing a broken mechanic that the dev couldn't/wouldn't fix.

 

[Mohrgan]

Why would a PvP meta FDL need to be good at anything other than combat? Of course you want what's effective, but there are things that are too effective, like heat, that most groups will self-police from their members.

Because you complained that the in the Rail-d-L "...you weren't viable in anything else." If I misunderstood this comment, I'm sorry.

@TrueSilver

Yeah, I get that. The only issue I was writing about was the nudges you speak about. The degree of change isn't my issue. And, the demise of the R-d-L or Heat Meta is ok with me. I'm just trying to remind us all that balance is subjective, and there will always be a Meta. There is no way to stop the balance debate, it will never end. That is separate from the peer pressure issue that is reflected by the heat cannon thing being discussed.

You even had to write a disclaimer when you posted about gimballed weapons. Where does that come from? It comes from a desire to control what a player may have to face out there. It comes from the desire for 'one build to rule them all'. It's like in problem solving, once you remove the 'biggest problem', your only left with the second biggest problem rising to become the primary issue.