AX Missile Observation and Relic Theory

As we have seen, the new Anti-Xeno weapons are quite effective towards our Thargoid neighbors. My question is this, why don't we suffer the same ill effects when we come into contact with Guardian tech?

My best guess is a long standing theory regarding the possibility of Humans and Guardians being related, or at least similar in biological nature.

While yes, the missiles were tailor made to kill Thargoids and not humans; the question still stands. Why does this work? We know through various experiments performed by many of the minds at Cannon and elsewhere *cough Radio Sidewinder cough* that the Guardian tech has an extreme adverse effect on Thargoid tech. This suggests either a past where the two species fought or a possible 'allergy' of sorts.

So, why doesn't Guardian tech kill us? Either we lucked out on a cosmic scale (being from a similar planet with similar conditions and developing into a similar creature) or we are related.

Your thoughts?
 
As we have seen, the new Anti-Xeno weapons are quite effective towards our Thargoid neighbors. My question is this, why don't we suffer the same ill effects when we come into contact with Guardian tech?

My best guess is a long standing theory regarding the possibility of Humans and Guardians being related, or at least similar in biological nature.

While yes, the missiles were tailor made to kill Thargoids and not humans; the question still stands. Why does this work? We know through various experiments performed by many of the minds at Cannon and elsewhere *cough Radio Sidewinder cough* that the Guardian tech has an extreme adverse effect on Thargoid tech. This suggests either a past where the two species fought or a possible 'allergy' of sorts.

So, why doesn't Guardian tech kill us? Either we lucked out on a cosmic scale (being from a similar planet with similar conditions and developing into a similar creature) or we are related.

Your thoughts?

Confirmed by Ram Tah that they were humanoid and also shared similar building blocks based on DNA/RNA; excerpt from Biology 6: "We've barely scratched the surface with the Guardians. There is so much yet to discover. But this new data contains one tantalising detail that stands out: their biochemistry was very similar to our own. They had blood in the same fashion as us, and it fulfilled exactly the same role as it does for us. Beyond this, they share a similar genetic structure, with DNA and RNA their core building blocks. Although a full analysis has not yet been conducted, this might be evidence of a common ancestor, but also of a branching in their genetic history. This is an astounding discovery!"
 
Confirmed by Ram Tah that they were humanoid and also shared similar building blocks based on DNA/RNA; excerpt from Biology 6: "We've barely scratched the surface with the Guardians. There is so much yet to discover. But this new data contains one tantalising detail that stands out: their biochemistry was very similar to our own. They had blood in the same fashion as us, and it fulfilled exactly the same role as it does for us. Beyond this, they share a similar genetic structure, with DNA and RNA their core building blocks. Although a full analysis has not yet been conducted, this might be evidence of a common ancestor, but also of a branching in their genetic history. This is an astounding discovery!"
It seems then we may be repeating history yet again.
 
The thargoids readily scrounge occupied human escape pods so I don't think our genetics are that closely linked to Guardians less our biology could damage their own unless they were experimenting on said humans?
 
As we have seen, the new Anti-Xeno weapons are quite effective towards our Thargoid neighbors. My question is this, why don't we suffer the same ill effects when we come into contact with Guardian tech?

My best guess is a long standing theory regarding the possibility of Humans and Guardians being related, or at least similar in biological nature.

While yes, the missiles were tailor made to kill Thargoids and not humans; the question still stands. Why does this work? We know through various experiments performed by many of the minds at Cannon and elsewhere *cough Radio Sidewinder cough* that the Guardian tech has an extreme adverse effect on Thargoid tech. This suggests either a past where the two species fought or a possible 'allergy' of sorts.

Oh, it's quite possible humans are somehow related to the Guardians. Perhaps they genetically modified one of our ancestors to guide our evolution. They couldn't have clearly created homo sapiens as direct product, because the Guardians went extinct 1-2 million years ago and homo sapiens appeared around 250000 years ago.

As for why the Thargoids react violently to Guardian tech, and why the "Relics" were needed by Liz Ryder to make the AX missiles: that's just more evidence that the Thargoids are either the automated weapons systems left over from the Guardian civil war, or the evolved descendants of those weapon systems. I refer you to Guardian History Lore #20:

"20 – It appears that the Guardians approach to warfare vastly changed as the war continued. Warfare was conducted using automated battle fleets. At first these were controlled by the Guardians via brain implants, but later they became entirely autonomous. In the early stages of the war the Guardians fought each other directly, but within a decade – and after much loss of life – most of the fighting was conducted remotely. Soldiers were deployed only to occupy areas that had been captured by autonomous or remote vehicles, and eventually were not used at all."

Combine that with the fact that we know they preferred to wage war with sophisticated bio-weapons:

"11 – Until now, Ram Tah did not know if the Guardians were using their genetic and biological manipulation skills to develop their weapons and technologies. To those who claim that our technology is equal to the Guardians’ technologies, Ram Tah would say that integrating this technology to a societal level has given them a better knowledge of its application. They have developed creatures to use in combat… creatures that have remained very effective in the modern era.

12 – This data we have collected contains details of weaponry the Guardians developed. The guardians’ projectile weapons utilised electro-magnetic propulsion, much like their space technology. Such weapons were manufactured in a range of scaled, from personal weapons to capital-ship class. Generally the Guardians used kinetic energy in combat, and explosives were rarely deployed. Nuclear fission and fusion were developed during the Guardians’ astro-expansion period, but when it came to large-scale destructive weaponry they relied on bespoke biological weapons. Predictably, these were of little use against the AIs."

In short, I think the Thargoid are organic "Von Neuman" weapons left behind after the Guardians died out.

The main counter argument I've heard is that the Thargoids biology is so different from the Guardians. Thargoids' native environment is reported to be methane or ammonia worlds, much colder than our worlds. However, we know they can function perfectly fine in Earthlike Conditions (they've attacked humans in hand to hand combat/small weapons fire in one of the official books, without wearing any protective environment suits). Ask yourself: if you had the Guardian's ability to create an entire race of soldiers and organic ships to fight for you, would you want them to you use your precious earth-like enviroment/biomass for their development? Or would you rather design them to replicate on worlds with hostile environments to you and still be able to fight in your environment?

Besides, if the Thargoids were an independent race that just happened to fight with the Guardians, why is there no mention of them in the Monolith network? An outside, hostile force, surely would've caused the Guardians to pause their civil war to deal with that threat. At the very least, they're would be some note of them in the network. And finally, why would the Thargoids be vulnerable/hate something like a Guardian Relic if there was no relation? No, I propose they're destroying any Guardian tech they run across because it reminds them of their former masters AND/OR they're may be a some kind of "Kill Switch" in that tech that is a direct threat to the Thargoids.

I'm sure we'll find out in time. But right now, the evidence keeps mounting for my (and others) hypothesis that the Guardians made the Thargoids. The latest CG, where Liz Ryder wanted the Guardian Relics to design her AX weapons is just the latest piece. She didn't want Thargoid bio-samples of any type. No, she wanted Guardian tech.

So, why doesn't Guardian tech kill us? Either we lucked out on a cosmic scale (being from a similar planet with similar conditions and developing into a similar creature) or we are related.

As for why Guardian tech doesn't kill us - why they may have had some had in tinkering with our evolution, I don't think we were they're bioweapons. However, they may have still put "Kill switches" in us as well. Please see the article on the lost Generation Ship whose logs indicated that the crew received an a signal of unknown origin from a planet they passed. Anyone hearing this signal goes crazy and tries to kill everyone around them. Even when they know the signal causes these effects, if you hear it, you lose control and become a mass murderer... as the person who dictated the logs became." Then there is the Generation Ship where the female gene completely disappeared from the gametes of all the crew, causing them to slowly die off as they could no longer create female offspring. And then Generation Ship that ran across a pathogen that wiped out the whole crew... a pathogen that had been in space for untold years, and yet was 100% fatal to humans." Oh, I think the Guardians left a lot behind to deal with us - and any other creations - that got out of hand. In fact, the Rogue AI faction/Exiles may have survived and been behind those tests. However, that's just speculation at this point.

But again, the Guardian artifacts themselves don't harm us because we weren't their bio-weapons.
 
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Oh, it's quite possible humans are somehow related to the Guardians. Perhaps they genetically modified one of our ancestors to guide our evolution. They couldn't have clearly created homo sapiens as direct product, because the Guardians went extinct 1-2 million years ago and homo sapiens appeared around 250000 years ago.

As for why the Thargoids react violently to Guardian tech, and why the "Relics" were needed by Liz Ryder to make the AX missiles: that's just more evidence that the Thargoids are either the automated weapons systems left over from the Guardian civil war, or the evolved descendants of those weapon systems. I refer you to Guardian History Lore #20:

"20 – It appears that the Guardians approach to warfare vastly changed as the war continued. Warfare was conducted using automated battle fleets. At first these were controlled by the Guardians via brain implants, but later they became entirely autonomous. In the early stages of the war the Guardians fought each other directly, but within a decade – and after much loss of life – most of the fighting was conducted remotely. Soldiers were deployed only to occupy areas that had been captured by autonomous or remote vehicles, and eventually were not used at all."

Combine that with the fact that we know they preferred to wage war with sophisticated bio-weapons:

"11 – Until now, Ram Tah did not know if the Guardians were using their genetic and biological manipulation skills to develop their weapons and technologies. To those who claim that our technology is equal to the Guardians’ technologies, Ram Tah would say that integrating this technology to a societal level has given them a better knowledge of its application. They have developed creatures to use in combat… creatures that have remained very effective in the modern era.

12 – This data we have collected contains details of weaponry the Guardians developed. The guardians’ projectile weapons utilised electro-magnetic propulsion, much like their space technology. Such weapons were manufactured in a range of scaled, from personal weapons to capital-ship class. Generally the Guardians used kinetic energy in combat, and explosives were rarely deployed. Nuclear fission and fusion were developed during the Guardians’ astro-expansion period, but when it came to large-scale destructive weaponry they relied on bespoke biological weapons. Predictably, these were of little use against the AIs."

In short, I think the Thargoid are organic "Von Neuman" weapons left behind after the Guardians died out.

The main counter argument I've heard is that the Thargoids biology is so different from the Guardians. Thargoids' native environment is reported to be methane or ammonia worlds, much colder than our worlds. However, we know they can function perfectly fine in Earthlike Conditions (they've attacked humans in hand to hand combat/small weapons fire in one of the official books, without wearing any protective environment suits). Ask yourself: if you had the Guardian's ability to create an entire race of soldiers and organic ships to fight for you, would you want them to you use your precious earth-like enviroment/biomass for their development? Or would you rather design them to replicate on worlds with hostile environments to you and still be able to fight in your environment?

Besides, if the Thargoids were an independent race that just happened to fight with the Guardians, why is there no mention of them in the Monolith network? An outside, hostile force, surely would've caused the Guardians to pause their civil war to deal with that threat. At the very least, they're would be some note of them in the network. And finally, why would the Thargoids be vulnerable/hate something like a Guardian Relic if there was no relation? No, I propose they're destroying any Guardian tech they run across because it reminds them of their former masters AND/OR they're may be a some kind of "Kill Switch" in that tech that is a direct threat to the Thargoids.

I'm sure we'll find out in time. But right now, the evidence keeps mounting for my (and others) hypothesis that the Guardians made the Thargoids. The latest CG, where Liz Ryder wanted the Guardian Relics to design her AX weapons is just the latest piece. She didn't want Thargoid bio-samples of any type. No, she wanted Guardian tech.

As for why Guardian tech doesn't kill us - why they may have had some had in tinkering with our evolution, I don't think we were they're bioweapons. However, they may have still put "Kill switches" in us as well. Please see the article on the lost Generation Ship whose logs indicated that the crew received an a signal of unknown origin from a planet they passed. Anyone hearing this signal goes crazy and tries to kill everyone around them. Even when they know the signal causes these effects, if you hear it, you lose control and become a mass murderer... as the person who dictated the logs became." Then there is the Generation Ship where the female gene completely disappeared from the gametes of all the crew, causing them to slowly die off as they could no longer create female offspring. And then Generation Ship that ran across a pathogen that wiped out the whole crew... a pathogen that had been in space for untold years, and yet was 100% fatal to humans." Oh, I think the Guardians left a lot behind to deal with us - and any other creations - that got out of hand. In fact, the Rogue AI faction/Exiles may have survived and been behind those tests. However, that's just speculation at this point.

But again, the Guardian artifacts themselves don't harm us because we weren't their bio-weapons.

Two counter-arguments for this; "The main counter argument I've heard is that the Thargoids biology is so different from the Guardians. Thargoids' native environment is reported to be methane or ammonia worlds, much colder than our worlds. However, we know they can function perfectly fine in Earthlike Conditions (they've attacked humans in hand to hand combat/small weapons fire in one of the official books, without wearing any protective environment suits). Ask yourself: if you had the Guardian's ability to create an entire race of soldiers and organic ships to fight for you, would you want them to you use your precious earth-like enviroment/biomass for their development? Or would you rather design them to replicate on worlds with hostile environments to you and still be able to fight in your environment?"

A counter argument against those counter arguments could be these:

1) The Guardians' AI did manage to reach sentience, and they did reach out to become "real" from the Monolith Network in which they were trapped - it was for this reason that the religious sect rose to power, because they did not want the AI to become physical and self-reliant because of the potential consequences (were they right?). With some help, they may have entirely become their own bio-mechanical self-evolving species (looking at the Exiles as the main culprits here) - they wouldn't have to look or be anything like the Guardians, genetically, to be this way and could be Ammonia-based instead of Water-based bio-machines (after all, the Guardians did enjoy, liberally, genetically altering "stock" - the same would be practiced on any world they made home or even discovered, such as new earth-likes or ammonia worlds). Since the Guardians disapeared, the "Thargoids" would have continued to evolve themselves over the next million+ years of existence - therefore, they probably look like nothing they did since that time.

2) Ammonia-created bio-machines would be immune to water-based biological warfare (I would assume this is what the Guardians mainly used and altered, since they did originally evolve on and earth-like) - viruses created or harnassed from earth-like worlds or climates would not survive in an ammonia-blooded organism, biological or bio-mechanical - the blood would steralise anything it came into contact with (it would literally freeze germs/viruses and break them down). For this reason and theory, it is why I assume the Mycoid virus was so effective in the first place - it may have been an ammonia-altered virus that ate at polymers and other organic components, of which the Thargoids would have had no immunity because they had never came across it before, not even from the Guardians.
 
Two counter-arguments for this; "The main counter argument I've heard is that the Thargoids biology is so different from the Guardians. Thargoids' native environment is reported to be methane or ammonia worlds, much colder than our worlds. However, we know they can function perfectly fine in Earthlike Conditions (they've attacked humans in hand to hand combat/small weapons fire in one of the official books, without wearing any protective environment suits). Ask yourself: if you had the Guardian's ability to create an entire race of soldiers and organic ships to fight for you, would you want them to you use your precious earth-like enviroment/biomass for their development? Or would you rather design them to replicate on worlds with hostile environments to you and still be able to fight in your environment?"

A counter argument against those counter arguments could be these:

1) The Guardians' AI did manage to reach sentience, and they did reach out to become "real" from the Monolith Network in which they were trapped - it was for this reason that the religious sect rose to power, because they did not want the AI to become physical and self-reliant because of the potential consequences (were they right?). With some help, they may have entirely become their own bio-mechanical self-evolving species (looking at the Exiles as the main culprits here) - they wouldn't have to look or be anything like the Guardians, genetically, to be this way and could be Ammonia-based instead of Water-based bio-machines (after all, the Guardians did enjoy, liberally, genetically altering "stock" - the same would be practiced on any world they made home or even discovered, such as new earth-likes or ammonia worlds). Since the Guardians disapeared, the "Thargoids" would have continued to evolve themselves over the next million+ years of existence - therefore, they probably look like nothing they did since that time.

2) Ammonia-created bio-machines would be immune to water-based biological warfare (I would assume this is what the Guardians mainly used and altered, since they did originally evolve on and earth-like) - viruses created or harnassed from earth-like worlds or climates would not survive in an ammonia-blooded organism, biological or bio-mechanical - the blood would steralise anything it came into contact with (it would literally freeze germs/viruses and break them down). For this reason and theory, it is why I assume the Mycoid virus was so effective in the first place - it may have been an ammonia-altered virus that ate at polymers and other organic components, of which the Thargoids would have had no immunity because they had never came across it before, not even from the Guardians.

I'm not sure I understand your counter arguments. It seems like you're just arguing a different model of Guardian weapons system > Thargoid evolution. And/or that the Thargoids might actually be the Exiles/AIs or the AIs themselves. If that's what you're arguing, I'm fine with that. My main point is that one way or another, the Guardians created the Thargoids (or, more specifically, they created what evolved over time into the Thargoids.

As far as your point #1, according to the Guardian Monolith network files, yes, the AIs developed away to be independent of the Monolith network and the implants in the Exiles. And that method the AIs developed was deleted from the Monolith network. I'm not sure if the AIs are involved with either sect of the Thargoids. They may, however, be behind those incidents with the Generation ships.


As for point #2, when you reach the level of genetic engineering the Guardians were at, I'm not sure what rules apply any more. Yes, a virus may not work on both types of life, but a form of bacteria (or fungi) could. Also, if they could create life forms that are naturally ammonia/methane based, then I'm sure they had ways to kill/control them. Early in Guardian history, they used bioweapons like we could possibly create today - genetically tailored viruses and such. But by the time of their civil war, they were using engineered creatures to fight for them. If you can create something that sophisticated, you can also destroy it.

Honestly, I think we're generally on the same page, we're just arguing over what exactly was created, by which sect (if not used by both), and how it evolved. For me, there's not enough data to go further with that. Either way is fine with me. My main point is Guardians created (proto-)Thargoids and used them as their weapons in their civil war. Whether these creatures started out as water-based and later became ammonia-based, or started as ammonia-based, doesn't really matter to me in the long run. The point of my counter argument was that I don't see the Guardian's being water-based ruling out them creating the Thargoids, who are ammonia-based. In fact, my point makes more sense when you read the history files where it talks about how the Guardian's livable space kept decreasing as the war went on. Better to develop weapons that won't use up your precious life support resources when they can be made to grow in other environments.

One last bit: The civil war wasn't a reaction to the AIs. It was a reaction to the implants the exile faction members had in them and the advantage that gave them. The other side thought the implants were "unnatural" (which is really understandable for a race that has primarily used biotech above all else). The AIs then saw the vulnerability of relying on the exile's implants and the monolith network for their continued "distributed" existence, and developed another method which was deleted from the records. The war was waged between the religious faction that was against the implants vs. those that did want to use them. Or, at least, that's what the records from the Monolith network say.
 
Then there is the Generation Ship where the female gene completely disappeared from the gametes of all the crew, causing them to slowly die off as they could no longer create female offspring. And then Generation Ship that ran across a pathogen that wiped out the whole crew... a pathogen that had been in space for untold years, and yet was 100% fatal to humans." Oh, I think the Guardians left a lot behind to deal with us - and any other creations - that got out of hand. In fact, the Rogue AI faction/Exiles may have survived and been behind those tests. However, that's just speculation at this point.

...why, you might ask, did this pathogen specifically target the female gametes?

Perhaps it was designed to target mostly-female species...oh, wait. The Thargoids are all-female (at least, the ones we've seen are).

I'm going to go ahead and surmise the following...

1 - The Thargoids originated as the Guardians' remote war drones.
2 - The Guardians' AI achieved sentience, and migrated into the proto-Thargoids.
3 - The Guardians couldn't record this event in the monolith network, because it was managed by their AI/SI.
4 - The Guardians scrambled to find ways to destroy their (now-sentient) drones with the technology they had to hand.
5 - The proto-Thargoids were designed to reproduce faster than the enemy could destroy them.
6 - They made a virus which attacked the female gametes to prevent reproduction.
7 - They still lost, and were wiped out by their own technology...or maybe the virus jumped species to affect the Guardians themselves.
8 - Since human life shares aspects with the Guardians' evolution (whether independently-evolved or linked in some way), the mutated virus also affects us.
9 - The AI/SI in the Thargoids has had millions of years to develop itself into a fully-fledged race.
10 - We are here.

It's sort of a cross between stories of the Cylons of BSG and the Ancients of Stargate, and while it's pretty easy to draw a straight line from there to here, the fascinating part would be in the details - the way the Thargoids' migrated single sentience developed into its own society of individuals, presumably with factions which disagree on how to proceed when encountering us (which definitely seems to be the case). That's a series of books I'd love to read.

Oddly, I'm less interested in playing the game than I am in finding out how the history unfolded. I really hope FD give us some way of communicating with them, even if it's just through revealed tidbits as reward for missions.
 
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The problem with the Generation ships is that they are pretty far away from the Guardian bubble and are within 50-100ly(? would need to double check) of Sol - apart from that, I do like those thoeries :)
 
Of interest to me is how this all fits together. How do the Guardians really fit into the overall story? Hopefully we get some answers. Considering we just barely found the Guardian ruins which turned out to be our saving grace, in possibly more ways than one, less than a couple years before the Thargoid advance...

Almost literally deus ex machina in regards to the monolith network and ancient tech; Both of which probably instrumental in the creation of counter measures against the Thargoids.
 
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