Engineers Counter to Chaff

[Yure]

Can something be made to counter chaff? Right now they seem to have a long uptime and they can be stacked. Hands down they are the go-to defense utility when in doubt of what you will be fighting.

I don't want them nerfed directly as they provide excellent defense and PvP options, but by providing some sort of counter to it I think it will help give more variety in the meta. This counter should probably come in the form of a weapon bonus, as someone would now have to choose between another juicy mod.

If not consider it a optional module enhancement, like an augmenting sensor suit.

Thank you for your time and consideration in this matter.

 

[Delfino]

Can't you just use fixed guns? Chaff is a great balancing item. Smaller ships are hard to hit with fixed weapons and they would be destroyed by gimbals, so they use chaff. Larger vessels usually don't use chaff as it is less efficient. Literally chaff boosts smaller ships a little bit.

 

[NascentChemist]

If you're using gimbals, and particularly if you're using laser weapons, you can de-select your target. This essentially makes your weapons act fixed.

 

[mp4x]

I think a countermeasure for countermeasures would be wrong in principal and practice. If you're going down the easy option of gimballed weapons, you should have a hurdle. Fixed weapons or deselect is your answer. I think what your asking would do the opposite of 'variety in the meta' by removing countermeasure options and make it easier to let your auto targeting weapons fight for you.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

If you're using gimbals, and particularly if you're using laser weapons, you can de-select your target. This essentially makes your weapons act fixed.

Sure though that's not a good thing since you won't know where to shoot.

 

[mp4x]

Sure though that's not a good thing since you won't know where to shoot.

The HUD still shows your reticle and where your now straight shooting weapons will shoot, when you deselect a target. While the targets chaff is firing, you deselect and just line your reticle up with the target ship and pull the trigger. When you see the chaff stop, hit your target select button to continue gimballed fire. With a MC you lead the target a bit and use your rounds like tracers.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

The HUD still shows your reticle and where your now straight shooting weapons will shoot, when you deselect a target. While the targets chaff is firing, you deselect and just line your reticle up with the target ship and pull the trigger. When you see the chaff stop, hit your target select button to continue gimballed fire. With a MC you lead the target a bit and use your rounds like tracers.

The reticle will definetly be there but it won't tell you where to shoot when using MCs, cannons, PAs, missiles, etc. You can try to manually aim but it's not easy. For lasers it's not a big deal since they travel directly to your target in an instant.

 

[Ca$hback]

You can try to manually aim but it's not easy.

That's the entire point.

 

[mp4x]

The reticle will definetly be there but it won't tell you where to shoot when using MCs, cannons, PAs, missiles, etc. You can try to manually aim but it's not easy. For lasers it's not a big deal since they travel directly to your target in an instant.

Yes, when someone has countermeasures running it's going to be more difficult than usual to shoot them. That's the point. Re the MC- that's what leading a target is, and you can see the rounds like tracers. You can always move in closer, even with gimballed weapons and the target has chaff running - get in close and you still hit most of your shots. You can use these methods to keep combat going while they have chaff running, to continue to hit them. OP just needs to practice more, not make the game easier

 

[Flaffenbam]

My only warning about deselecting targets is to take a second to make sure you haven't selected another target, I've accidentally shot an innocent or two by accidentally targeting a ship next to who I am fighting and my gimbals have tracked them.

 

[mp4x]

My only warning about deselecting targets is to take a second to make sure you haven't selected another target, I've accidentally shot an innocent or two by accidentally targeting a ship next to who I am fighting and my gimbals have tracked them.

No, what we're saying is deselect the target so that the targets chaff doesnt affect your weapons shooting in a straight line, and continue to shoot the same ship with no actual target selected in you HUD. Gimballed weapons with no active target shoot in a straight line - you don't need to actuall select/highlight a target to shoot them - so while the target has chaff running you just use your weapons as fixed weapons.

[edit] Wait, I reread your post. You mean requiring a lock/acquiring a new target - my error

 

[Shinji Ikari]

That's the entire point.

Then while we are at it, he should just use fixed weapons. It's easier to aim with them than an untargeted gimball.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Yes, when someone has countermeasures running it's going to be more difficult than usual to shoot them. That's the point. Re the MC- that's what leading a target is, and you can see the rounds like tracers. You can always move in closer, even with gimballed weapons and the target has chaff running - get in close and you still hit most of your shots. You can use these methods to keep combat going while they have chaff running, to continue to hit them. OP just needs to practice more, not make the game easier

If you are in a big slow ship, you are going to have trouble doing that. Small and chaffed ships are already quite hard to hit with fixed weapons.

 

[mp4x]

If you are in a big slow ship, you are going to have trouble doing that. Small and chaffed ships are already quite hard to hit with fixed weapons.

I agree, which is what gives it balance because you also have much more hull/shield/module+util slots to deal with it. You could also do the same thing, shoot chaff, back at them. It would be an error to change the way chaff works based on the fact the largest most powerful ships in the game have trouble keeping a direct bead on a smaller faster ship running chaff.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

I agree, which is what gives it balance because you also have much more hull/shield/module+util slots to deal with it. You could also do the same thing, shoot chaff, back at them. It would be an error to change the way chaff works based on the fact the largest most powerful ships in the game have trouble keeping a direct bead on a smaller faster ship running chaff.

Agreed.

 

[Soopyyy]

Needs to be a longer cooldown for chaff. NPC's pop it almost constantly and all it does is artificially inflate the TTK and make the entire process tedious. In my Corvette, I just stop moving, turn FA-OFF and act like a Turret. The NPC AI is a bit moric and flies around popping chaff for 3mins until it runs out and then I blow it away.
Hardly compelling gameplay.

 

[Flaffenbam]

No, what we're saying is deselect the target so that the targets chaff doesnt affect your weapons shooting in a straight line, and continue to shoot the same ship with no actual target selected in you HUD. Gimballed weapons with no active target shoot in a straight line - you don't need to actuall select/highlight a target to shoot them - so while the target has chaff running you just use your weapons as fixed weapons.

[edit] Wait, I reread your post. You mean requiring a lock/acquiring a new target - my error

No worries. I have a bad habit of trying to detail things correctly but always making it read horribly, often leads to trouble :-(

Yeah I was meaning accidentally acquiring a new target instead of dropping your current one. I'm a filthy console peasant who doesn't have enough buttons to bind a deselect target button, instead I use an empty bit too of space and just use target crosshair to drop a target. Can lead to trouble.

 

[Yure]

Then while we are at it, he should just use fixed weapons. It's easier to aim with them than an untargeted gimball.

How do you aim fixed weapons when you are in a t-7 t-9 vs a lighter smaller ship. Not asking for a direct need to chaff, players can still carry as much as before and it would last as long. All I'm saying that if someone wants to counter them there should be an option. There is already emisive which counters heatsinks, all I'm asking is for the option of a chaff counter to be considered.

Maybe it doesn't need to be a bonus, it could be a straight up mod. Players would them have to choose between overcharge, efficient or the goto default meta.

It's just more flavor more gameplay options.

 

[Kilostream]

I use fixed on pvp fits, gimballed on pve - Chaff is a complete non-issue in pvp, and in pve, I can choose three options - 1) wait it out, 2) untarget the ship so the gimbals work like fixed, or 3) get so close that the chaff becomes ineffective.

If you've never used fixed, they seem hard at first, but there's a couple of things you can do to help - firstly, during the 'practice' phase, don't used gimbals at all, force yourself to fly fixed the whole time - your ship positioning WILL improve, which will help your aim and, secondly, avoid weapons that require you to hold a prolonged bead on the target (such as beam laser' pulse laser, etc.) and instead select something that does great gobs of damage in one hit (plasma, cannon, frag, etc).

Its true there's not an anti-chaff module in the game, but it's not true that there is no counter to chaff.

 

[Kilostream]

How do you aim fixed weapons when you are in a t-7 t-9 vs a lighter smaller ship..

Thats pretty hard - If you must get into combat encounters whilst flying T7 or T9 (which I'd suggest is a mistake!) you would need to master two disciplines - firstly FA-off manoeuvres and secondly, predictive aiming (aiming ahead of where your target is on their trajectory, and firing when they move into your crosshairs).