A suggestion to incentivise participation in Community Goals

[JetsonRING]

I believe a lot of Commanders, especially those in small ships get discouraged from participating in the Community Goals when they realize Cutter pilots are delivering 700+ tons of CG cargo per run and that they, in their Cobra Mk. III will never, ever make top 10% and given current mission payouts those small-ship CMDRs will not see a Cutter themselves for a year or more. Anyhow, here is my suggestion to incentivise those small-ship CMDRs to participate in CGs. It's simple, really:

Break up CG participation by ship type. [up] The top 10%, 25%, 50%, etc. of CMDRs in each type of ship will receive the same level of payouts: the same high payout for the top 10% contributing Sidewinder pilots as for the top 10% contributing Cutter pilots. Same payout for each ship type, same for each percentage level across the board. Yes, a Sidewinder CMDR will get the same payout for their 100 ton total contribution (@ 8 tons/lap) as a Cutter pilot for their 20,000 ton contribution (@ 720 tons/lap) so long as they are both in the top 10% of contributions for their ship-type bracket. This would offer CMDRs flying Sidewinders, Cobras and Type-6's an incentive, a light-at-the-end-of-the-tunnel and a reasonable path to what they want: bigger, more capable ships and more credits. CMDRs do not mind hard work, do not want ships handed to them and they do not mind earning but CMDRs want credits so they can BUY the ships! This was proven over last weekend in Rhea and LQ Hydrae! Nobody (sane) wants to take on a Tharg flower-ship while flying a DBX, Sidewinder or Cobra III.

Input from other CMDRs, moderators and Devs is appreciated. It would be interesting to see if this suggestion can gain any traction within the community.

All hail our new alien Overlords. Ull-Laaah!

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Interesting idea, but I think it would lead to some odd behaviour at CGs - getting into the top 10% Asp Scout or top 10% Imperial Eagle at a trade CG could probably be done in one run, for example - at least until people figured it out, but it could certainly turn CGs into a mass game of bluffing about unpopular ship types. Would also give a permanent advantage to the limited set of people able to use the Cobra IV.

How would you handle people who used more than one ship type during a CG? Payout for each ship type? Or just for the best one?

I think it might give some odd payout curves. Looking at the recent Chapterhouse trade CG (the last bulk trade to reach Tier 8), you get 800,000 for top 100%, 10 million for top 75% and 37 million for top 10%. Top 100% is obviously easy to get even in a Sidewinder. That gets you enough money to get a well-equipped Cobra III. Top 75% should be very practical in a Cobra III as a lot of people will only do one delivery. That gets you 10 million, which added to the trade profits from the CG itself, can probably buy you an Asp. At this point even the 37 million bonus payouts for top 10% don't really go that far towards bigger ships, but on the other hand with an Asp most of the options for bigger regular earnings are open to you.

I wonder if there might be some "tragedy of the commons" possibilities - people going for getting high ranks in some of the obscure smaller ship classes, so the total cargo amount goes down, so the higher tiers aren't reached and everyone gets less money. That could be fun to watch.

 

[Hell Razor5543]

I, in the past, have used CGs to help new Players get a better start in the game. When Bluford Orbital (LHS 3447) was being constructed I helped 4 new Players by getting them to join me in Wings (two per Wing, at different times), and then I was hauling in a lot of required materials (400T in my Anaconda). Because the CG was paying over the odds the Trade Dividends the new Players were getting typically was 80Kcr each. That helped them to upgrade their Sidewinders (I recommended they did not replace the Sidewinders until the CG ended), so they could then actively participate, hauling in a few tonnes of cargo each. As a result, when the CG successfully fully completed, each new Player got a bonus of 1Mcr. A few seconds later they were all in Cobra MkIIIs!

Yes, 1Mcr is not a lot to Players who have large fleets, including various A Rated Cutters. However, 1Mcr to a Player who has only just started (remember, a new Player is in a loaned Sidewinder, and has a balance of only 1,000cr) is a major boost. All 4 of the Players I helped believe that the CG helped them to get a better understanding of the Game, increased their enjoyment, and made it more likely they will continue playing for a long time (I have seen a couple still playing recently).

 

[Kerrash]

... Would also give a permanent advantage to the limited set of people able to use the Cobra IV...

This would be the biggest fly in the ointment for this idea sadly.
The proposal does however highlight a larger issue with the game in general; one of lack of ship specialisation for certain activities. In the case of trade CG's however, scale will always win, that won't change.

An often overlooked quantity is that CGs are merely a tool to provide a focal point for player activity and encourage interaction.

 

[JetsonRING]

Interesting idea, but I think it would lead to some odd behaviour at CGs - getting into the top 10% Asp Scout or top 10% Imperial Eagle at a trade CG could probably be done in one run, for example - at least until people figured it out, but it could certainly turn CGs into a mass game of bluffing about unpopular ship types. Would also give a permanent advantage to the limited set of people able to use the Cobra IV.
How would you handle people who used more than one ship type during a CG? Payout for each ship type? Or just for the best one?
I think it might give some odd payout curves. Looking at the recent Chapterhouse trade CG (the last bulk trade to reach Tier 8), you get 800,000 for top 100%, 10 million for top 75% and 37 million for top 10%. Top 100% is obviously easy to get even in a Sidewinder. That gets you enough money to get a well-equipped Cobra III. Top 75% should be very practical in a Cobra III as a lot of people will only do one delivery. That gets you 10 million, which added to the trade profits from the CG itself, can probably buy you an Asp. At this point even the 37 million bonus payouts for top 10% don't really go that far towards bigger ships, but on the other hand with an Asp most of the options for bigger regular earnings are open to you.
I wonder if there might be some "tragedy of the commons" possibilities - people going for getting high ranks in some of the obscure smaller ship classes, so the total cargo amount goes down, so the higher tiers aren't reached and everyone gets less money. That could be fun to watch.

I think this idea would provide incentive to people with the "unpopular" ships to participate in the CGs. There are a LOT of CMDRs flying Sidewinders. If a bunch of Cobra drivers participate that cuts down on the number of Cobra drivers in the top 10%. Not everyone would make the top 10%. 800,000 would give a lot of Sidewinder drivers just what they want: A Cobra III. As for Cobra 4 drivers having an advantage, simply make the bracket for Cobras, all kinds, no distinction between Cobra types, same for Asps and Diamondbacks.

 

[kingbankai]

I believe a lot of Commanders, especially those in small ships get discouraged from participating in the Community Goals when they realize Cutter pilots are delivering 700+ tons of CG cargo per run and that they, in their Cobra Mk. III will never, ever make top 10% and given current mission payouts those small-ship CMDRs will not see a Cutter themselves for a year or more. Anyhow, here is my suggestion to incentivise those small-ship CMDRs to participate in CGs. It's simple, really:

Break up CG participation by ship type. [up] The top 10%, 25%, 50%, etc. of CMDRs in each type of ship will receive the same level of payouts: the same high payout for the top 10% contributing Sidewinder pilots as for the top 10% contributing Cutter pilots. Same payout for each ship type, same for each percentage level across the board. Yes, a Sidewinder CMDR will get the same payout for their 100 ton total contribution (@ 8 tons/lap) as a Cutter pilot for their 20,000 ton contribution (@ 720 tons/lap) so long as they are both in the top 10% of contributions for their ship-type bracket. This would offer CMDRs flying Sidewinders, Cobras and Type-6's an incentive, a light-at-the-end-of-the-tunnel and a reasonable path to what they want: bigger, more capable ships and more credits. CMDRs do not mind hard work, do not want ships handed to them and they do not mind earning but CMDRs want credits so they can BUY the ships! This was proven over last weekend in Rhea and LQ Hydrae! Nobody (sane) wants to take on a Tharg flower-ship while flying a DBX, Sidewinder or Cobra III.

Input from other CMDRs, moderators and Devs is appreciated. It would be interesting to see if this suggestion can gain any traction within the community.

All hail our new alien Overlords. Ull-Laaah!

I would just love it if they did more Superpower based community goals. And a story advancement one.

So Empire CG, Federal CG, Alliance CG, and Thargoid CG.

 

[JetsonRING]

Interesting idea, but I think it would lead to some odd behaviour at CGs - getting into the top 10% Asp Scout or top 10% Imperial Eagle at a trade CG could probably be done in one run, for example - at least until people figured it out, but it could certainly turn CGs into a mass game of bluffing about unpopular ship types. Would also give a permanent advantage to the limited set of people able to use the Cobra IV.
How would you handle people who used more than one ship type during a CG? Payout for each ship type? Or just for the best one?
I think it might give some odd payout curves. Looking at the recent Chapterhouse trade CG (the last bulk trade to reach Tier 8), you get 800,000 for top 100%, 10 million for top 75% and 37 million for top 10%. Top 100% is obviously easy to get even in a Sidewinder. That gets you enough money to get a well-equipped Cobra III. Top 75% should be very practical in a Cobra III as a lot of people will only do one delivery. That gets you 10 million, which added to the trade profits from the CG itself, can probably buy you an Asp. At this point even the 37 million bonus payouts for top 10% don't really go that far towards bigger ships, but on the other hand with an Asp most of the options for bigger regular earnings are open to you.
I wonder if there might be some "tragedy of the commons" possibilities - people going for getting high ranks in some of the obscure smaller ship classes, so the total cargo amount goes down, so the higher tiers aren't reached and everyone gets less money. That could be fun to watch.

Regarding your question about CMDRs who used several different ship types in a CG: Well, payouts are tied to CMDRs and not their ships specifically so IMO the best solution would be to payout based on their highest participation tier reached in the biggest ship they used. So a CMDR that gets into the top 10% using a Cutter, in the Cutter-class and then switches to an Anaconda and reaches top 10% in Annie class, then switches to a Cobra and reaches top 10% in Cobra class, would get paid based only on their participation in Cutter class. No multiple-class payouts. If they reach top 10% in a Cobra II and then switch to a Cutter thinking they will get the Cutter payout SORRY! They get paid on the highest participation tier they reached . . . in their Cobra. Simple.

Also, no Cobra 3 and Cobra 4 classes, only "Cobra-class". BTW I believe the Cobra4 hauls less than a Cobra3. Likewise no multiple FDS, FGS and FAS classes, just one FxS class. Same with Eagles: No iEagle and Eagle classes, just Eagle class covering both models. No separate Type-6 and Keelback classes, just one class for both. Heck maybe just one class for all types with comparable capability. That would simplify things as well for instance (and I am not sure of the details) if a Dolphin can haul about as much as a Type-7, put them in the same class. Mayber create only 4 or 5 classes of ships, all with comparable capabilities for instance, lump Cutters in with Type-9's and Corvettes.

Any good idea requires careful, creative thinking and the details can be worked out. The idea here is to find a creative way to level the playing field somewhat and give newer pilots of small, less-capable ships a good reason to participate in CGs beyond (for instance) a few miserly credits, or a sticker, or access to a weapon that will only work for a few days then be nerfed into ineffectiveness. If a Sidey pilot gets into the top 10% for their ship type they get the same millions of credits that the pilots of Cutters who reached the top 10% for their ship-type do. If I am a new player in a Sidewinder and find out I have a CHANCE to earn the same 30 or 40 million credits a Corvette or Cutter pilot gets IF I REACH TOP 10%, then I will probably work like hell to reach top 10%. But currently, that same Sidewinder pilot looks at the CG participation levels, sees he or she needs to deliver 10,000 tons to reach top 10% and says to themselves "Why should I even try?". For the prospect of reaching top 75%? They are probably not even thinking about that. o7

 

[Ben Sevil]

I'm all for some sort of rebalance, but I think the day that Cutter pilots start getting the same payout for delivering 25K tonnes as Eagle pilots for delivering 500 is when bulk delivery CGs will definitely die. Therefore, I cannot support this proposition.

What I would support is, for example, a rebalancing of the item-weight delivered. So that, for example, if you deliver one Thargoid heart or something, it should be equivalent to delivering 100T of copper or whatever.

 

[sandkid]

I'm all for some sort of rebalance, but I think the day that Cutter pilots start getting the same payout for delivering 25K tonnes as Eagle pilots for delivering 500 is when bulk delivery CGs will definitely die. Therefore, I cannot support this proposition.

What I would support is, for example, a rebalancing of the item-weight delivered. So that, for example, if you deliver one Thargoid heart or something, it should be equivalent to delivering 100T of copper or whatever.

This. CGs requiring various goods should weight your contribution not by tonnage but by value or rarity of total goods delivered. This enables smaller-cargo commanders to get more involved as OP asks in some cases but generally won't solve the perceived problem. Fact is, except for brand-new commanders, a Type-7 really isn't that hard to acquire for most commanders...and it can easily reach about 50% bracket into 25% and even 10% for the dedicated.

To be honest, my primary reason for NOT participating in CGs is PvP renders open play for me generally a bad idea or because the payout, while nice, really isn't worth my time and effort grinding deliveries. Bulk delivery CGs are, for all intents and purposes, just not very fun. Where combat CGs at least spice things up a little, delivery CGs in their current format are just boring.

Now, if it was take stuff from the CG location and deliver to multiple locations (all of which must be filled for CG completion)...that could be mildly interesting. Jump range, not total weight carried, becomes a factor then where other ships become favorable over the never-ending parade of anacondas and Type-9s. This is basically just powerplay mechanics, so like I said, mildly interesting. But now there is more thought involved in where do I deliver to first and what is the best route if that fills up and I have to go somewhere else.

 

[c3shooter]

I see and in general agree with what you are after with this idea, but as described, I disagree. I want to make sure that players continue to join them, and contribute, even if its a few loads in a sidey.

I'm all for some sort of rebalance, but I think the day that Cutter pilots start getting the same payout for delivering 25K tonnes as Eagle pilots for delivering 500 is when bulk delivery CGs will definitely die. Therefore, I cannot support this proposition.

What I would support is, for example, a re balancing of the item-weight delivered. So that, for example, if you deliver one Thargoid heart or something, it should be equivalent to delivering 100T of copper or whatever.

First off this is true. If the idea becomes an equal compensation by vessel, it causes ALOT of programming headaches, or/and many ways to be exploited.

Firstly, I agree, as i think many do, that in the example of these last few Thargoid tech CG's, the Guardian and Thargoid tech should be accounted for differently, they are presumably more crucial to the research, they are definately harder to obtain, and certainly take longer to obtain than the standard materials, even with the new supply/demand in the marketplace. On that one perhaps some sort of scale, where only so much of any given thing can be contributed before the next tier barrier, or something like that. Anyway I don't want to get too sidetracked.

1.
I think the CG's are the best way for new(er) commanders to get some credits, the top 100% gives (on average) 600k-700k. that represents ALOT of money for almost no investment of time. I was playing maybe 2 weeks before I participated in a community goal. I didn't quite understand the concept. I wish I started earlier. Perhaps the first login after the new goal is released would play a promotional commercial. I think getting the word out is the most effective thing, basically.

2.
At my first CG I was flying a type 6 I believe, this is an excellent CG machine and cheap. (kinda) I made top 75%. Between the profit of the loads I took, and the end bonus, I bought an ASP, after the next week I bought a Python, last week I bought an Anaconda, this week I have enough to buy a Cutter (not high enough rank) I wasn't even really effective in the beginning. Now I know of (and extensively use) EDDB, take a starting load from wherever I am (this is often cheaper than the material is locally) I bookmark the supply stations, and CG station, I monitor the forum posts regularly, etc. This week, I will finish in the top 10% of all 3. I could have made it into higher brackets earlier it just takes more time, That which not everyone will have, but none-the-less success outside of the top 10 players, can be achieved with a Medium pad ship and enough play-time. My take away is again a message to new players, YOU CAN MAKE GOOD MONEY.

3.
I would not be opposed to a first time bonus, maybe double whatever bonus level they reached. Also I think they could come up with some sort of secondary bonus for how many runs made with the cargo hold (say 75% or better full). This would compensate those who really bust it to get loads back and forth, but maybe cant yet afford the "big" ships. Not saying to level the playing field but an extra something for those that work hard. Numbers for that would be best figured by Fdev, as I'm sure they can get those stats.


My personal dream is to see a real community goal. Like a Mega CG. One that combines the required skills of cargo runners, smugglers, miners, combat etc. One where escort and guard duty (combat) protects the stations, routes, and resource sites, so the miners can bring in ores. With some sort of bonus for protecting miners and runners fired upon, not just kill the wanted guys. Cargo runners take the shipments from satellite stations to a major hub, or across long distances, perhaps involve a mega ship, that makes stops at the hubs where cargo guys can load it up, and then when it leaves they can take a long haul trip to destination. More than 2 or 3 materials involved perhaps. Smugglers bringing in slaves, drugs, or liqueur to help with processing and production, maybe explorers charting a path to some distant system to bring some ultra rare ruby...I don't know all the details, but I'm sure you see my point. Probably a multi-week, multi system event, that have smaller separate CG's but that certain levels need to be met in certain orders/locations/etc. But that is alot of programming...

 

[c3shooter]

For a CG that could be done in the next few weeks

A CG where a small manufacturing station building Thargoid defensive satellites, small landing pad is only for bringing in some types of materials (basic supplies and things found in the nearby systems, medium landing pad brings in certain materials (from systems slightly farther away and in bigger quantities (again this idea is capped by only needing a certain amount of each material say 50 titanium, 10 gold, 20 superconductors, etc) , and large landing pad takes the 64ton satellites to the bases they will protect.

 

[Ben Sevil]

...and large landing pad takes the 64ton satellites to the bases they will protect.

That would be a welcome change.

 

[Rob At Work]

Big ships need rubber shielding to bounce them pesky suicidewinder types into oblivion

Also it's a Community Goal, not a personal score board.