No.. Bad management, make bad mistakes. Good management make manageable mistakes.
What we've seen since the 2.4 drop (and earlier) is complete incompetence. And it wouldn't be accepted outside of a games company.
The Thargoid Disaster and what we learn for the future, a speculation
- Thread starter RexKraemer
- Start date
No.. Bad management, make bad mistakes. Good management make manageable mistakes.
What we've seen since the 2.4 drop (and earlier) is complete incompetence. And it wouldn't be accepted outside of a games company.
Especially in view of what I said to you yesterday in the thread about community submissions, I thought I should post to say I agree with you 100% on that.
That's the really significant thing about this change today I think, not anything specific about how the change was implemented, whether they should have buffed the Thargoids instead of nerfing the missiles or whatever; even with my own disappointment at the specific outcome of that, it's just noise within the grand scheme of things.
What it does strongly suggest is that this is basically on rails and all of the organic stuff that players themselves bring to an MMO in terms of devising tactics to defeat enemies and so on won't matter because if it's not the week that a player is supposed to be able to do something, the progression of the story won't be changed by the players actions. Instead it looks as if the guy behind the curtain is probably going to pull his levers until things get back onto their pre-ordained track.
I would usually link the Extra Credits video on player agency here but let's face it, everybody has seen it by now
Especially in view of what I said to you yesterday in the thread about community submissions, I thought I should post to say I agree with you 100% on that.
That's the really significant thing about this change today I think, not anything specific about how the change was implemented, whether they should have buffed the Thargoids instead of nerfing the missiles or whatever; even with my own disappointment at the specific outcome of that, it's just noise within the grand scheme of things.
What it does strongly suggest is that this is basically on rails and all of the organic stuff that players themselves bring to an MMO in terms of devising tactics to defeat enemies and so on won't matter because if it's not the week that a player is supposed to be able to do something, the progression of the story won't be changed by the players actions. Instead it looks as if the guy behind the curtain is probably going to pull his levers until things get back onto their pre-ordained track.
I would usually link the Extra Credits video on player agency here but let's face it, everybody has seen it by now
I haven't seen it but I think it probably states that the right thing to do, is exactly the opposite of what Frontier are doing. I'm getting hungry so I'll watch it after lunch.
LOL! Well, I could have capitalised the Thargoids I suppose - and possibly one could complain that "simming" is not a real word. But I have to say I appreciate that so far (Edit: yeah - didn't last long) the comments that followed my rather provocative post have been very adult and responses, even negative, addressing the facts rather than the man. Unlike in another post I have recently responded to. Feeling a little vocal this morning since I have been responding to some political stuff going down in my country where we have just had elections. Should stop now.
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The only mistake was allowing players to know the weapons had been nerfed.
If players didn't know that specifically, they would have assumed the thargoids had adapted, which was the entire point, and actually would have been quite a cool idea.
Also, I expect the missiles with either be part of the way to harm thargoids in the future, or will be adapted further in the future by engineers.
If players didn't know that specifically, they would have assumed the thargoids had adapted, which was the entire point, and actually would have been quite a cool idea.
Also, I expect the missiles with either be part of the way to harm thargoids in the future, or will be adapted further in the future by engineers.
100% worth it and will never be forgotten.
Because Frontier, at the stroke of a few line changes, have removed player agency from the process. We're now an optional extra, along for the ride. They have established that should things not proceed, according to whatever plan there is, commanders will simply be disconnected from the process whilst the developer repositions.
Frontier has done an amazing job, that they're now seriously compromising, by reacting aggressively to (situations that they have struggled with in the past) rather than taking a more measured approach with an escalation of commander capability.
We went from unkillable, to endlessly destroyable overnight. Clearly that wasn't intended; and if they just communicated our friends had gained new found strength due to unexpected success of new weapons (ie the developer adapted the thing that we're expecting to have adapted) they could have actually improved the entire narrative.
Over time, they could then have added weapons and adjusted the entire set of mechanics, once all the pieces were in place, to create a darn stellar experience. They really do mean well, it's just the rushed execution of corrective actions, which are seeing miscommunication and confusion occurring, is letting them down.
There will be how many commanders that don't even know the weapons suddenly don't work now? It's buried in a patch note. Is there even anything in Galnet yet, so there's some pretence of story?
Where are the grown up people in this thread? All I see are children arguing... oh wait... I am in the wrong thread... Sorry, cary on.
It's not wise to argue that rushed changes are fine because it's just a bunch of children talking. I think if frontier had been a bit more upfront and a little less crazy on the nerf bat, it'd make a ton more sense, no? There was no way they could have predicted the outcome, exactly, but this isn't the first weapon type added. They've added a lot. And all of them were way way too strong out of the gate. All of them.
There are more modules coming; clearly the missiles on their own weren't supposed to be able to take these things down so effectively; the developer is rushing to solve an issue, and being pretty ordinary about the communication. Adapting humans instead of thargoids, is probably more convenient, but not really what they described would happen.
The end result is that players don't really have agency, and the aliens aren't the ones adapting; it's the hand of god, all over again. That's fine; but call it what it is.
It would have created a bunch of Bug reports. Wasting the developers time, on a change that was intentional. I'm all for reasons and consistent lore and what not, being even less communicative, is not one of them.
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At the end of the day this is Frontier's game, and they are going to move the chess pieces on occasion. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with this, I am just saddened that the outcomes just really weren't overly well planned for. They can't test every eventuality, but I can't fathom how after so many weapon changes and tweaks due to damage issues, this just wasn't a planned for event, with a set of stat changes for the thargoids all set to go, if things went south.
I really think, otherwise, Frontier has done an amazing job; but there's clearly some eventuality planning missing here. Some what-if questions don't ever seem to be being asked, internally.
I really think, otherwise, Frontier has done an amazing job; but there's clearly some eventuality planning missing here. Some what-if questions don't ever seem to be being asked, internally.
I see this as a consequence of the unfortunate, but necessary, fact that Thargoids couldn't be Beta tested. There are going to be hiccups, especially at the beginning.
Players, at this stage, should not be soloing Thargoids. A group of players should be very hardpressed to hurt a Thargoid. These are the warrants that FDev is bringing to this issue.
There will be a problem if every weapon is released, used to insta-kill a Thargoid, and nerfed. But until that happens lets give FDev a little leniency.
Oh, and the development of Elite and other titles is compartmentalized. Please find another talking point.
Players, at this stage, should not be soloing Thargoids. A group of players should be very hardpressed to hurt a Thargoid. These are the warrants that FDev is bringing to this issue.
There will be a problem if every weapon is released, used to insta-kill a Thargoid, and nerfed. But until that happens lets give FDev a little leniency.
Oh, and the development of Elite and other titles is compartmentalized. Please find another talking point.
can't rep you more so +virtualrep.
OK, so 2.4 dropped Sept. 26. That's a whole... 8 days ago. And many many posts about "are the Thargoids too weak?" and "Now we get weapons in a couple days" and "we can just smurf the Thargoid with 2 wings and 24 barrages of this weapon!" and "I thought they'd be harder" and... on and on.
People can't even sit on their firing digit for a whole week and perhaps listen to the story that they've been complaining about since, oh, launch: "no story! A mile wide and inches deep!" and other such pontificating. WTH people.
There've been quite a few Earth weapons that started as one thing and then needed multiple gradual improvements after testing to be effective. These new missles were created in, what... 5 days in-game time? To attack an enemy we don't really know about yet? How effective could they be?
Thargoids adapting? Good a way as any. We have a heck of a lot more info on The Guardians than we do the Thargoids. I kinda wondered how Aegis came up with an effective weapon (and the scanner) so fast.
I'm perfectly fine with Thargoids doing completely-unanticipated things. I am very happy that a cookiecutter approach to a main enemy whipped up in 5 days has suddenly become ineffective. We've been chattering about the supposed exobiology of the Thargoids for months, yet adapting to a new weapon used on them is somehow impossible or a cheap dev stunt? Take a look at how swiftly (Earthly) anti-antibiotic bacteria are evolving and overcoming our "last defense" antibiotics.
OK so whatever. I think I'll just stop reading the forums for awhile; I'm getting indigestion.
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The difference between a good and a bad dungeon master is how they react when things don't unravel according to their plan, whether they miscalculated or someone simply decided to roll a 20 for the next five times.
The difference between a good and a bad dungeon master is also how enjoyable a session is and to what extent the players can dive into the session.
FD is currently being a bad dungeon master at the one thing they were hyping so much the whole season pack for.
+rep
I agree with the first statement. A dungeon master should react well when they realize their campaign could be finished in twenty minutes. They shouldn't ignore that problem, even if their adjustment can't be orchestrated with the same finesse the initial campaign received.
Your second statement can't be accepted at face value. The DM can only lead the players. If a player decides to have a bad time, they will. Both sides have to contribute.
The entire season has not been about Thargoids, only 2.4 is. And we were explicitly told that 2.4 would be rolled out in stages. We've had roughly 3 stages in about a week. Let's see how the next month goes, alright?
Honestly, should a wing of fricken Adders have any chance against a Thargoid? No! Should any significant number of players have a change at soloing a Thargoid, in the first week? No!
We can agree that a 50x reduction is probably overkill. I'd prefer something like a 20x nerf: still makes it incredibly difficult it kill a Thargoid, but less chance of "the sky is falling" backlash.
Accepting Frontier's claim of the change being a story element (which I do)...
Personally, I'm not even remotely bothered with it. If it had played out, with CDMR reports filtering in from the field, it would have had a very different ring. The Galnet posting following a day or two from now (instead of today), bringing speculation into focus.
This kind of thing is IMO exactly what the Thargoids need to avoid just being reskinned NPC. Some sense of reaction, of diversion beyond what we get from NPC ships.
Yes I do get that it's "fake"... But isn't much of gaming? Even the sense of immersion is completely in the head.
So left where things are, I am not pleased to get upset with this. The in-game content is so far quite well presented, fantastic graphics, sounds, atmospheres, and a sense of the unknown.
Today's patch notes spoiler which removed the unknown, is (all IMO of course) part of the weaker aspect of Frontier's Thargoid effort. Communication. A sorely lacking sense of chatter via the few in-game news outlets. Galnet is always written as if it's a head of state releasing a statement. And those NEVER impart a sense of uncertainty or tension. They are cool, controlled, and coming from a perspective of looking down on every problem as being superior to it. That's fine for a galactic leader. But for the CMDR on the scene, the whole idea of "winter" is one of upset and turmoil, uncertainty and even misunderstanding. And Elite's in-game communications avenues don't seem well placed to convey this lower perspective.
Where will things go? Too much remains unseen, IMO. We still do not have Thargoid Synthesis (which could easily arm the now ineffective missiles with the desired chemistry for each specific Thargoid type). We still don't have Engineering on these weapons, either.
Having the Thargoids "adapt" to our weapons over and over would be bad and wear thin fast, of course. But if Frontier uses it (or intended to, anyway) as a setup for Synthesis variations on reloads or whatever down the road... I can see how a this change would make sense along that path.
We shall see.
Personally, I'm not even remotely bothered with it. If it had played out, with CDMR reports filtering in from the field, it would have had a very different ring. The Galnet posting following a day or two from now (instead of today), bringing speculation into focus.
This kind of thing is IMO exactly what the Thargoids need to avoid just being reskinned NPC. Some sense of reaction, of diversion beyond what we get from NPC ships.
Yes I do get that it's "fake"... But isn't much of gaming? Even the sense of immersion is completely in the head.
So left where things are, I am not pleased to get upset with this. The in-game content is so far quite well presented, fantastic graphics, sounds, atmospheres, and a sense of the unknown.
Today's patch notes spoiler which removed the unknown, is (all IMO of course) part of the weaker aspect of Frontier's Thargoid effort. Communication. A sorely lacking sense of chatter via the few in-game news outlets. Galnet is always written as if it's a head of state releasing a statement. And those NEVER impart a sense of uncertainty or tension. They are cool, controlled, and coming from a perspective of looking down on every problem as being superior to it. That's fine for a galactic leader. But for the CMDR on the scene, the whole idea of "winter" is one of upset and turmoil, uncertainty and even misunderstanding. And Elite's in-game communications avenues don't seem well placed to convey this lower perspective.
Where will things go? Too much remains unseen, IMO. We still do not have Thargoid Synthesis (which could easily arm the now ineffective missiles with the desired chemistry for each specific Thargoid type). We still don't have Engineering on these weapons, either.
Having the Thargoids "adapt" to our weapons over and over would be bad and wear thin fast, of course. But if Frontier uses it (or intended to, anyway) as a setup for Synthesis variations on reloads or whatever down the road... I can see how a this change would make sense along that path.
We shall see.
It doesn't matter whether it should happen.
What matters is that it happened and how the game moves forward from there. The excuse doesn't even make sense. The missiles themselves became worse because the Thargoids adapated. Apparently when Kevlar was invented, all bullets automatically became worse or something.
Seriously how hard would it be to increase the explosive resistance of the thargoids?
The pinnacle of their hype and they still opted for the easier solution, despite it shattering any consistency. Sometimes keeping your smokes and mirrors hidden is quite important.
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I'm a biochemist. One of the units we occasionally use is LD[SUB]50[/SUB]. It describes the lethal dose, usually in milligrams of compound per kilogram of subject, to kill 50% of a population given that compound. Let's say that I'm studying a new pesticide, and initially see a LD[SUB]50 [/SUB]of .005. Assuming my pests are 1 kg, that means it only takes 5 micrograms to have a 50% chance of killing one! That's pretty lethal.
A week into my analysis, and the pests grow resistant to my pesticide. Now my apparent LD[SUB]50 [/SUB]is 0.25 mg/kg. Oh no! My pesticide didn't change at all. However, I still need to adjust the unit I use to describe it. I could try adding a fudge factor to my calculations to account for the change, but the clearest way to express the difference is by changing the LD[SUB]50[/SUB].
TLDR; the egg heads making the missiles told you they aren't working well using a clear and established measurement. It would be inaccurate of them to insist that the missiles are still effectively penetrating the Thargoids armor.
A week into my analysis, and the pests grow resistant to my pesticide. Now my apparent LD[SUB]50 [/SUB]is 0.25 mg/kg. Oh no! My pesticide didn't change at all. However, I still need to adjust the unit I use to describe it. I could try adding a fudge factor to my calculations to account for the change, but the clearest way to express the difference is by changing the LD[SUB]50[/SUB].
TLDR; the egg heads making the missiles told you they aren't working well using a clear and established measurement. It would be inaccurate of them to insist that the missiles are still effectively penetrating the Thargoids armor.
A good dungeon master would have a set of alternatives in the event their party was outpacing plans. As opposed to deciding the party is apparently overpowered, and summarily dictating the swords the party have, do not now actually stab people, or like even just cut a little bit, despite being very sharp and pointy - and then saying the nearest ogre was responsible.
And even then, in a fantasy situation, maybe that'd make sense. In a (roughly) science based game? Please.
Given large wing groups are apparently still able to trash Thargoids, all frontier has done, is punish the solo and single wing groups, because they hadn't apparently considered mass groups of players, and (apparently) still haven't.
What was described, and was expected, was an incremental ability to effect change. I think frontier were trying to avoid all the new mechanics essentially being cut scenes and decided to release the first weapon assuming it would take commanders some time to figure it all out. Because by the two week mark, we've got two weapon types and a scanner. So about a week for things to shake down.
I don't think anyone was really expecting we could down the greatest threat to humankind within 24 hours of the first weapons being available? I'm not sure what Frontier was thinking here, to be honest. They mean well. Really. But this shouldn't have come as a surprise at all. And simply undoing the weapon as a solution doesn't strike me as planned changes.
The outcome, was then inevitable, commanders surprised Frontier, again, and they reacted, as they tend to do. Extreme to extreme.
--
None of this was ever going to be easy, and what Frontier has done, is amazing. It really is fantastic. The atmosphere, the mechanics, it's all showing, actually, an increasing maturity from the developer. They are trying new combat mechanics, adding more strategy. It's all good. It's just being a bit undone by rushed changes because the developer has not quite got a handle yet on how well the community actually understands their game.
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