General / Off-Topic More than 50 killed in Las Vegas terror attack

[Minonian]

So it's about sentimental value?
It's don't have to be in working condition to keep it in your home as a memory, and decoration.
Yes, you can fix that, but if its's disarmed that's against the law. Again? Less footing harder time for the perps.

 

[Boomer Kay]

..8char..useless discussion

 

[lysan]

There were no "heavy weaponry", no "machine guns" used. So far no evidence has surfaced to indicate Paddock had either a Federal Firearms License, nor an ATF permit for ANY automatic weapons.
What was found were some modified SEMI-AUTOMATIC weapons - sporting rifles, with a "bump stock", which can be installed to simulate automatic fire, by using the weapon's recoil to actuate the trigger rapidly - but this is NOT a machine gun, as the trigger is still squeezed once per round fired.

Spreading misinformation does no one any favors.

Silencers:

I own 3 suppressors, two for rifles, one for a pistol.

Why? I provide a service to a number of horse stables in my area and to a number of dairy cattle farmers. I kill ground hogs. Ground hogs dig large holes and tunnels, and for many reasons are fond of digging and tunneling in and under horse stable lands and dairy pastures. This puts cattle and horses at risk of broken legs if they happen to step in a hole or a tunnel collapses under them. My use of a suppressor greatly diminishes the likelihood that the sound of gunfire will startle horses or cattle, and rarely alerts any other ground hogs that might be burrowing, sunning or feeding in the area.

On an average year, I kill between 300 to 350 ground hogs across the area I service.

My rates are extremely reasonable, and I am well regarding in my community for the service I provide.
Live traps are not terribly effective, poisons put horses and cattle at risk, and the use of poisons on dairy farms is actually prohibited by health regulations.
I'm a terrible shot with a long bow, but I'm I'm an ace with a rifle - as a former military sniper, the reason should be obvious.

So there are perfectly valid reasons for private citizens to own suppressors - I do not use the term "silencer" because the reality is nothing like what you see in the movies. They suppress, they do not "silence".

That leaves "assault rifle" - a term created by Adolph Hitler, and adored by both the ignorant media and politicians. There is absolutely no such thing as a "semi-automatic assault rifle", period. Anyone who tries to claim otherwise is a fool who does not know what they're talking about and has zero credibility. An "assault rifle" is always, 100% of the time, absolutely fully automatic. It IS a machine gun. Period, end of discussion. Anything else, no matter what any politician or reporter claims, is NOT an assault rifle. Calling even a highly modified AR-15 with a 38mm grenade launcher attached with an after-market 50 round magazine, a keyhole stock and a fixed bayonet is still not an "assault rifle". It is a highly modified semi-automatic sporting rifle.

Again, disinformation does not serve the common good.

It is possible for private citizens to legally purchase and own and operate fully automatic weapons. They are extremely rare, extremely expensive, and require an agonizing amount of federal paperwork.
I happen to own two - one an AK-47, taken out of the hands of a North Vietnamese soldier who awoke my uncle by jabbing him in the face with it. He killed that solider with his combat knife, took the rifler, defended the other soldiers in his company, and carried that rifle with him for the next two years, until he returned to the US in 1970. After he left the army, he kept that same rifle, filing all the required federal paperwork, and passed it along in the family when he died.
It hangs in a shadow box, along with a folded US flag, and my uncle's Medal of Valor. It hasn't been fired since it left Vietnam, but it does get cleaned and oiled twice a year.

The other is a Thompson M1928A1 which was originally seized by Thomas J. Friel, one of Eliot Ness's original team members, and has an extremely long history as to how it came into the possession of my family, who have owned it for several decades. Like my uncle's AK-47, this is a priceless piece of American history, and while it costs me several thousand dollars a year to keep and maintain these, I do so proudly. One as a patriot, the other as a law-abiding citizen. Although, I have once fired the Thompson - at an outdoor range, during a special event put on by the club. It was also fired by the Sheriff at said same event, who was a little misty-eyed hearing this history of this particular firearm.

So it should go without saying, I do very much support firearm ownership. It is one of our most important Constitutional Rights.

Events like this clearly indicate there are some real social problems - but these will not be resolved through any manner of firearms regulations. These are issues of mental health. While Paddock may not have been diagnosed with any mental issues, there was clearly something wrong with him that he would take such horrific action.

I'll leave you with this - I would be my recommendation, in light of this tragic event, and in the name of public safety, for hotels like this to replace the windows in their buildings with Class VII ballistic glass. As this type of glass is rated to stop multiple rounds of high-powered rifle fire, it would go a tremendous way to prevent any such future acts, as this sort of glass could not easily be broken, making it much harder for anyone to commit a similar act.

The rest of a real solution is dependent on changes to current mental health care and even more so, on both the availability of such services and proper insurance coverage for such services.

Too much common sense here, overload overload malfunction ..... dut dut dut dut...

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Too much common sense here, overload overload malfunction ..... dut dut dut dut...

I have been and continue to campaign to have the phrase "common sense" replaced with "Uncommon Sense", as sense in general has been growing far less common.

And yes, I could have these rifles both rendered non-firing by a qualified gunsmith, and save myself a few thousand dollars a year, for less than the cost of my annual licensing, but... I remain hopeful that at least some of my annual license fees go to a good cause.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

There were no "heavy weaponry", no "machine guns" used. So far no evidence has surfaced to indicate Paddock had either a Federal Firearms License, nor an ATF permit for ANY automatic weapons.
What was found were some modified SEMI-AUTOMATIC weapons - sporting rifles, with a "bump stock", which can be installed to simulate automatic fire, by using the weapon's recoil to actuate the trigger rapidly - but this is NOT a machine gun, as the trigger is still squeezed once per round fired....

Sporting rifle, combat rifle, military rifle, assault rifle... at this point, Wyrd, it's all just a matter of semantics.

I understand that there is an information war going on, and that words matter, but regardless of what words either side uses to describe the objects in question, both sides know what the other is talking about (to a degree, that statement is not absolute).

Personally I never use the word "machinegun" to describe anything but, belt-fet, open-bolt, fully-automatic machinegun (crew optional).

In general, I use the term "combat rifle" to describe my rifles. They are all rifles in common military use (in fact, all three of them were in common use in Iraq when I was there), though semi-automatic only. I do have an Enfield No 4 Mk II, however, and refer to it as a combat rifle as well, even though it is no more or less capable than any modern bolt-action hunting rifle, save for maybe magazine capacity (love that rifle, BTW).

I never use the term sporting rifle (because I think it sounds dumb and disingenuous), and military rifle doesn't roll off the tongue nicely.

Sometimes I refer to them as assault rifles. Again, they are all in common military use. Some would argue that they are not fully automatic, and so the term doesn't apply, but neither are the ones used by the US military. As a matter of fact, the burst selector might as well not even be on there, because we rarely if ever train for burst fire anymore - we teach control, accuracy, and ammo conservation through semi-auto fire.

But in the end, it's all academic. It's just words. While there may be some on the other side of the argument who have little familiarity with the differences between fully automatic and semi-automatic fire, there are other characteristics that are of concern to them beyond mechanical operation. Magazine capacity, caliber/velocity, penetration, range, reload time, effective rate of fire, etc.

Basically what I'm saying is you can call it whatever you want. Call it a sporting rifle, assault rifle, call it a garden hoe. People still know what it is, and in my opinion to try to mask its purpose by giving it a more palatable name is as disingenuous as trying to demonize it by insisting on using only the scariest and most hyperbolic of names for it.

 

[dannysquid]

It's much nicer living in a country where thousands of innocent people aren't shot every year.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Sporting rifle, combat rifle, military rifle, assault rifle... at this point, Wyrd, it's all just a matter of semantics.

I understand that there is an information war going on, and that words matter, but regardless of what words either side uses to describe the objects in question, both sides know what the other is talking about (to a degree, that statement is not absolute).

Personally I never use the word "machinegun" to describe anything but, belt-fet, open-bolt, fully-automatic machinegun (crew optional).

In general, I use the term "combat rifle" to describe my rifles. They are all rifles in common military use (in fact, all three of them were in common use in Iraq when I was there), though semi-automatic only. I do have an Enfield No 4 Mk II, however, and refer to it as a combat rifle as well, even though it is no more or less capable than any modern bolt-action hunting rifle, save for maybe magazine capacity (love that rifle, BTW).

I never use the term sporting rifle (because I think it sounds dumb and disingenuous), and military rifle doesn't roll off the tongue nicely.

Sometimes I refer to them as assault rifles. Again, they are all in common military use. Some would argue that they are not fully automatic, and so the term doesn't apply, but neither are the ones used by the US military. As a matter of fact, the burst selector might as well not even be on there, because we rarely if ever train for burst fire anymore - we teach control, accuracy, and ammo conservation through semi-auto fire.

But in the end, it's all academic. It's just words. While there may be some on the other side of the argument who have little familiarity with the differences between fully automatic and semi-automatic fire, there are other characteristics that are of concern to them beyond mechanical operation. Magazine capacity, caliber/velocity, penetration, range, reload time, effective rate of fire, etc.

Basically what I'm saying is you can call it whatever you want. Call it a sporting rifle, assault rifle, call it a garden hoe. People still know what it is, and in my opinion to try to mask its purpose by giving it a more palatable name is as disingenuous as trying to demonize it by insisting on using only the scariest and most hyperbolic of names for it.

Brother-in-arms - I did my tour during Desert Storm. What might sound like a mere exercise in semantics to you and I, actually does make a difference - not to us, but to the clueless masses who sit wide-eyed to be spoon-fed whatever the media is shoveling their way. And those masses are the voting majority. If they are misinformed and believe whatever the face on the screen tells them, they'll never know any better and that's dangerous - dangerous to everyone, as it creates an opportunity for governmental sleight-of-hand as they make our rights disappear, little by little, while keeping the people blind to what they're doing by waving scary-words in front of them.

That $14 dollar specimen-jar sized cup of coffee might be called kopi luwak, but it's still a cup of hot cat .

It's much nicer living in a country where thousands of innocent people aren't shot every year.

How're the taxes there in paradise?
How long are the lines at the clinic?
How's austerity working out?

 

[dannysquid]

How're the taxes there in paradise?
How long are the lines at the clinic?
How's austerity working out?

What are you on about? I know people from Dunblane. I don't see dead children as a price worth paying so some morons can feel like John Wayne. Obviously gun control is practically impossible in the States, but baby steps towards it seems like something everybody should be considering rather than hiding behind a flag full of bloodstained bullet holes.

 

[Sir.Tj]

Knock it off.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

Brother-in-arms - I did my tour during Desert Storm. What might sound like a mere exercise in semantics to you and I, actually does make a difference - not to us, but to the clueless masses who sit wide-eyed to be spoon-fed whatever the media is shoveling their way. And those masses are the voting majority. If they are misinformed and believe whatever the face on the screen tells them, they'll never know any better and that's dangerous - dangerous to everyone, as it creates an opportunity for governmental sleight-of-hand as they make our rights disappear, little by little, while keeping the people blind to what they're doing by waving scary-words in front of them.

That $14 dollar specimen-jar sized cup of coffee might be called kopi luwak, but it's still a cup of hot cat .

I completely understand. And thank you for your service.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Knock it off.

Trying to keep this civil.

What are you on about? I know people from Dunblane. I don't see dead children as a price worth paying so some morons can feel like John Wayne. Obviously gun control is practically impossible in the States, but baby steps towards it seems like something everybody should be considering rather than hiding behind a flag full of bloodstained bullet holes.

This is a hot-button topic, and one that spans an unbridgeable gap of cultural differences. No sane people will say that dead people are ever a good thing, so that is a common ground. Everyone will agree public safety is important, but that is where the cultural divide begins to head towards its widest point. Who is responsible for public safety? Some say this lies with the Government. Others say it lies with the People themselves. There is no reconciling, and one side will never convince the other of who is right or who is wrong. It's like Marmite/Vegemite - you either love it or hate it, and no one will change anyone's mind about it.

Right now everyone is still in knee-jerk mode, tempers on both sides are flaring and dividing lines are being carved even deeper in the sand. I think this ultimately only serves certain agendas rather than benefits the people as a whole. Rather than offer up our sympathies and come together, we'd rather divide and factionalize. It's easier than dealing with the real issue, and it's not waving the gun control banners, nor open-carry armed marches in opposition, because this ultimately isn't a gun problem, it's a people problem. I liken it to this:

Joey meets Jimmy on the playground.
Jimmy beats Joey with a plastic wiffle-ball bat.
The teacher takes the bat away. (Gun control)
The next day, Joey and Jimmy meet again.
This time Jimmy beats Joey with a stick.

The problem isn't the bat, nor the stick.
The problem is Jimmy, and no one really wants to deal with Jimmy because that's hard, expensive, takes time, caring and commitment.

Solving social issues like whatever brought about this attack are not going to be easy, fast, or cheap, and in this instant-gratification day and age, people do not have the patience for real solutions. They want something they can throw over an ugly situation and call a solution, so they don't have to see the hot coals under the blanket solution - and can be shocked when the whole thing goes up in flames.

 

[lysan]

I have been and continue to campaign to have the phrase "common sense" replaced with "Uncommon Sense", as sense in general has been growing far less common.

And yes, I could have these rifles both rendered non-firing by a qualified gunsmith, and save myself a few thousand dollars a year, for less than the cost of my annual licensing, but... I remain hopeful that at least some of my annual license fees go to a good cause.

Bro, I know where you're coming from and believe me, I agree 100% with you, but sometimes I just give up explaining.

Making something that goes boom, is easy, you just need to pay attention in your chemistry classes and you got everything you need.
That is all I'm going to say about that subject.

People who believe they can prevent horrible situations from happening don't know the human nature very well. I saw that In croatia in the early 90's.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

Trying to keep this civil...and can be shocked when the whole thing goes up in flames.

That was very well-said.

Unfortunately I'm out of rep for you.

Making something that goes boom, is easy, you just need to pay attention in your chemistry classes and you got everything you need.

As a matter of fact, due to that pesky thing we call the First Amendment, the information is readily available to anyone interested.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

What sort of experience do you want to create for yourselves?
(Should be a familiar theme 'round these parts...)

Do you want your experience based on fear-mongering and utter lies?

The fact is the US is quite a bit safer than even 20 years ago, and that's a worldwide trend for a much longer time.


The US has seen around a 40% drop in violent crime in just 20 years:

That's huge!
People should be celebrating that stuff in the streets.
The sky is not falling.
People are not getting gunned down in the streets (edit: more often).
Cops are under more scrutiny than at any time in history.
Cameras are ubiquitous.
The list of false narratives one can choose to indulge in is endless.

Despite double-digit percentage decreases in U.S. violent and property crime rates since 2008, most voters say crime has gotten worse during that span, according to a new Pew Research Center survey. The disconnect is nothing new, though: Americans’ perceptions of crime are often at odds with the data.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...s-of-crime-continue-to-conflict-with-reality/

[video=youtube;BPt8ElTQMIg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPt8ElTQMIg[/video]


[video=youtube;kFnFr-DOPf8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFnFr-DOPf8[/video]


Just look at this thread.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

That was very well-said.

Unfortunately I'm out of rep for you.


As a matter of fact, due to that pesky thing we call the First Amendment, the information is readily available to anyone interested.

I'll gladly give some back - and point out that not only is dangerous information available and easily accessible, so too are things like 3d printers and firearms files that can be created using them, despite efforts to prevent these sorts of things from spreading. And, as has been pointed out, doing harm to one another is as old as the human race itself. Grog not like Ugg, Grog hit Ugg with stick. Ugg not like hit with stick, Ugg throw rock at Grog.
Grog friends not like Ugg throw rock, Grog friends make #2 in Ugg cave. It's been downhill ever since.

 

[Boomer Kay]

People are not getting gunned down in the streets (edit: more often).

That's the gun related statistic:

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

That's the gun related statistic:
https://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/static/images/item/gundeathauto.JPG

Um, 2/3 of those gun deaths are *suicides*.
Thank you for proving my point about false narratives.
And before you go there, Japan has a much higher suicide rate and essentially no guns.

The reality is our violent crime rate is the same as the late 60s, *despite* there being around 50% more people.
That's also relevant when using raw numbers like you did.
Stop spreading the fear and hate.

 

[Stigbob]

What sort of experience do you want to create for yourselves?
(Should be a familiar theme 'round these parts...)

Do you want your experience based on fear-mongering and utter lies?

The fact is the US is quite a bit safer than even 20 years ago, and that's a worldwide trend for a much longer time.


The US has seen around a 40% drop in violent crime in just 20 years:

https://www.statista.com/graphic/1/191219/reported-violent-crime-rate-in-the-usa-since-1990.jpg

That's huge!
People should be celebrating that stuff in the streets.
The sky is not falling.
People are not getting gunned down in the streets (edit: more often).
Cops are under more scrutiny than at any time in history.
Cameras are ubiquitous.
The list of false narratives one can choose to indulge in is endless.


http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...s-of-crime-continue-to-conflict-with-reality/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPt8ElTQMIg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFnFr-DOPf8


Just look at this thread.

Whenever there's either a rise or fall in any kind of crime statistic the first question you need to ask is does it correspond to a change in the way the figures are calculated, or the way the crimes are recorded.

Unfortunately they tend to bob up and down massively whenever people want to demand increase funding or justify past spending.

Victim support groups generally have much more accurate figures than government.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

The Bloomberg projection is grossly misleading. Probably intentionally.

I mean, it's Bloomberg for God's sake... You really should just go right to the source.

(And just like every other statistic you people like to wave around, when juxtaposed with other first-world, industrialized nations the numbers are roughly comparable.)

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr65/nvsr65_04.pdf

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

That's the gun related statistic:
https://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/static/images/item/gundeathauto.JPG

Consider how this graph "tilts" if you factor in the 50% increased population over the same time.
It supports my premise entirely.