"Beyond" free for Horizon owners - LEP musings

[WR3ND]

Nope, 180 was including horizons, so 135USD left over, so for 3 updates at 45 per pop

I see what you're saying. I was dividing it out at the point of sale for the LEP based on the price of the "expansions" then, though the only expansion at that point also included the base game.

If going by the season model, yes, what you're saying makes sense.

 

[uliando]

Makes you wonder, if paid expansion 2.x brought you what we got. Anyone thinking free 3.x will be better than 2.x is crazy.
Maybe they listened to players saying they will pay for atmospheric flight and are saving paid expansion for that. Who knows?

 

[WR3ND]

Makes you wonder, if paid expansion 2.x brought you what we got. Anyone thinking free 3.x will be better than 2.x is crazy.
Maybe they listened to players saying they will pay for atmospheric flight and are saving paid expansion for that. Who knows?

Considering I already paid for them, I don't think it's asking too much. [hehe]

People who got Horizons are certainly getting their money's worth here with Beyond Horizons, I think. Hopefully Steam sales and reviews can reflect that accordingly now for once... I'm not holding my breath with that fickle lot though.

...

More on your point though, "Beyond" seems more about fleshing out and enhancing the game than adding new features, which I'm perfectly fine with, provided Frontier of course actually intend to add new features further down, beyond Beyond Horizons, such as flying in atmospheric worlds and landing on them, space legs, and so on.

I'm really liking this target art goal for in game assets by Q4 '18. ↓

Spoiler

I don't think they would have shown something like that and mentioned it the way that they did if it wasn't something they're actually striving for.

 

[znôrt]

The promise is simply all future paid for expansions would be free. Since Beyond is not paid for, then its not part of the deal, excepting that we have Horizons as part of the LEP anyway.

exactly. and don't you worry, life pass owners, didn't you hear life expectancy is increasing? and i would be surprised if frontier didn't throw you a bone at some point. they may have flopped a few times but definitely don't look like scammers to me. on the contrary, the decision to extend horizons is something to applaud (although it no doubt has some marketing strategy behind too), lep-pers just need to be patient, this is a long road. for life!

what would worry me more in the near future (a year form now) is that i'm not seeing the showcased terrain improvement running smoothly on some current consoles, or low end pcs. technically that would be an impressive feat. i'll believe it when i see it.

One thing to consider is that we all got the black skins for free. Other people paid for them when they were released. These had a value of over £80.

what black skins? if you mean black friday, they were for preordering horizons, not lep-exclusive (and afaik have never been for sale, but i could be wrong).

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

I think major point is that lot of people assume that FD has to make space legs or atmosphere planets as soon as possible, because of competition (completely ignoring fact that they face same challenges as FD), because of FD losing interest (which if that turns out might be more of self inflicted wound with people going overboard worrying about future of the game, not playing it), and so on and so forth.

We have huge jumps of expectations. Season 1. People expected a lot from ED 1.0, got a bit less. Things improved. Things got better. But there was sense of weariness after some time. Then Horizons were announced and suddenly everybody realised that hey, FD can actually do extensions sooner than later. Without Horizons, we wouldn't have this conversation.

I personally expect that other big major features as atmospheric planets, space legs, lava planets, etc. will take much more work and time to develop. That's why it is FD is stretching out Horizons. Software development is complex and that's why AAA publishers don't even touch space games anymore.

Tailor your expectations accordingly.

 

[znôrt]

Software development is complex and that's why AAA publishers don't even touch space games anymore.

a space game is not inherently more complex because of being a space game. aaa publishers aren't interested because it's a niche, and they are (understandably) risk averse.

 

[WR3ND]

...

...

I don't have any problem waiting, but naturally I would of course like to see the eventual delivery of what I've already paid for. To continue that analogy, with there being no set arrival date for this content and having been two years since purchasing it, some being concerned about it is to be expected, and people certainly don't deserve to be belittled by others because of it. (Not saying you guys have done this, but others in this thread certainly have.)

We all presumably want this game to be the best it can be which includes having a viable market position, and thriving and happy player base.

 

[znôrt]

and people certainly don't deserve to be belittled by others because of it.

if you find i did that, it's not the case and probaby poor expression on my part. any case, apologies. i do understand that lep-owners might be concerned, but i do trust there is no reason for that.

 

[Cmdr Ultra]

what black skins? if you mean black friday, they were for preordering horizons, not lep-exclusive (and afaik have never been for sale, but i could be wrong).

No they were for sale at one point. But I already had them due to my Life.....Time.....Pass.

Such an ambiguous name Life Time Pass. What could it mean?

Why the constant need for continuous reassurance of a simple and self explanatory name - Life Time Pass.

 

[WR3ND]

if you find i did that, it's not the case and probaby poor expression on my part. any case, apologies. i do understand that lep-owners might be concerned, but i do trust there is no reason for that.

No worries, and sorry for the late edit on that post.

Cheers.

 

[WR3ND]

No they were for sale at one point. But I already had them due to my Life.....Time.....Pass.

Such an ambiguous name Life Time Pass. What could it mean?

Why the constant need for continuous reassurance of a simple and self explanatory name - Life Time Pass.

It was called a Lifetime Expansion Pass when I bought into it at the Horizons announcement, and there is a clear difference between "continuous reassurances" and having any reassurances.

 

[Kayweg]

Considering I already paid for them, I don't think it's asking too much. [hehe]

People who got Horizons are certainly getting their money's worth here with Beyond Horizons, I think. Hopefully Steam sales and reviews can reflect that accordingly now for once... I'm not holding my breath with that fickle lot though.

...

More on your point though, "Beyond" seems more about fleshing out and enhancing the game than adding new features, which I'm perfectly fine with, provided Frontier of course actually intend to add new features further down, beyond Beyond Horizons, such as flying in atmospheric worlds and landing on them, space legs, and so on.

I'm really liking this target art goal for in game assets by Q4 '18. ↓

Spoiler

https://i.imgur.com/q4Vj4m1.png

I don't think they would have shown something like that and mentioned it the way that they did if it wasn't something they're actually striving for.

It's really a bit of a glass-half-full and glass-half-empty situation. I tend to be in the latter group, but let's try the otherone for a change.
There still is added value here.
They confirmed 2 new ships (and strongly hinted at more). Ships nobody was promised nor expected to be in season 2.
They also announced a multitude of improvements and additions on top of that.
None of which anyone knew anything about before last weekend, and some of which will presumably be season 2 exclusives....and therefor again add value.
Yes, there still has only been one paid-for expansion with Horizons, but even if it isn't called "season 3" or "3.0", "2.4 and beyond" will deliver more content for the money people paid....be it the LEP or simply Horizons outright.
Don't get me wrong, i know that doesn't feel quite the same for LEP owners as that next 50£ expansion would have done.
Just trying to offer a different point of view.
The view from someone who still feels Horizons is too lightweight to warrant the purchase, but who's more optimistic now that that could change, come the latter part of 2018.
Ultimately this may well be what FD are trying to achieve. Get more people to buy Horizons to widen the customer base (and economic viability) for whatever content is planned after that.

 

[madbilly]

I bought the LEP back in beta days for 40 euro, I honestly can't complain about whatever release plans they have. Having bought it at that price does make it easier to justify the occasional skin/detail purchase though.

Everyone please let's compare apples with apples: the OP was talking about the Lifetime Expansion Pass that was made available in Q3 2015, not the LEP that was available as part of the Kickstarter or pre-release. The people who purchased the LEP pre-release got an absolute bargain - same as the 2015 LEP purchasers AND loads of pre-release bonuses (paintjobs, decals, Freagle, Windows extras and the digital concept art book). For ~twice the price 2015 LEP purchasers didn't get any of those extras. Kickstarter purchasers were another matter, they were taking a gamble and luckily for the rest of us it paid off (I would have backed too if I'd known about it ).

(I know lots of people have mixed up the two LEPs, your quote was just the one I picked)

 

[madbilly]

Having Beyond Horizons at no additional cost to Horizons owners is a good thing, in my opinion. However, that doesn't add any value for LEP owners which paid the equivalent of two additional seasons/expansions for 60 USD each already two years ago.

LEPer here, I agree with you, just catching up with the thread

 

[madbilly]

Not gonna happen. Assuming they come they will be part of ED

Well, Sandro/Ed/Dale/someone even said something like this in the not too distant past regarding space legs.

 

[madbilly]

It was originally set up for an 8 year run. I'm not sure where this 10 year thing came from, but the official word from FD's financial report was and still is 8 years. It'll likely live beyond that. Or it'll be upgraded with a sequel. I'll likely buy that one as well.

Not exactly, but when explaining the seasons concept so that people had some idea what they were getting for horizons, they said a season would be about 1 year. They never ever said (to my knowledge) how many years there would be. People have taken a 10y number from somewhere, but I suspect even if true, this would be from the very start of the ed project, not from release date.
I would really like some more people to have a look at the yearly financial statements from FD, it might stop them from making ridiculous statements about the financial state and future of the game. I did, and the way they recognise the income from LEP, it would appear that there was 5 or 6 years left in the project from the release of horizons. There may be more after that, but it would rely on the release of further paid modules or the good will of shareholders (of which there is none)

10 years was mentioned in kickstarter I believe, as a desire (not commitment). 8 years in the financial report is an accounting policy, it's not a statement of their commitment, it just means they predict an 8 years lifetime for the ED franchise. What's not clear to me in that report is whether they mean 8 years from release or 8 years from the publication of the report.

Currently FD really, really want everybody move to Horizons. It's a win/win for them - way less technical issues, possibility to say goodbye to DX10, less support costs, and of course money from sales. That's why they are seriously sweetening the deal.

DX10 support has already been abandoned I think, same time as they abandoned Win32. It's 64 bit DX11 all the way now.

 

[madbilly]

Okay, I'm caught up with the thread now

I'm with the OP's sentiment on this one. I hope we can expect some paid for expansions in future years, because otherwise the LEP is increasingly looking like PPI - at best an ill-advised gamble or at worst an intentional deception. (note that thus far I think it's the former).

The issue is twofold:

1) If there's no more paid-for expansions, then 2015 LEP purchasers will get nothing more than Horizons beta purchasers, despite paying 3x the price - at best this is a rip-off, at worst it's...:x

2) The gamble part - was it good value buying the LEP in 2015? As others have said, at the time we expected (though there was no written commitment from FDev) a new paid-for expansion each year. Now it appears we should expect one every 3 years? Who knows, but there's an easy way to calculate whether or not the LEP was good value: Net present value:
- Assuming that the price of expansions will increase at the same rate as inflation (CPI) (~2.5% over the past ten years, starting with €47.50 for the Horizons beta (I bought LEP in euros so that's what I work with, and LEP includes beta so I have to use Horizons beta as the base price)) and we only get a paid for expansion every 3 years (horizons is year 1, then another every 3 years after that), then we need 3 more paid-for expansions over the ten years since buying the LEP (Q4 2018, 2021, 2024) to have made it worth buying the LEP. How likely is it that ED will still be going in the mid-2020s?

Personally, looking at the share price, I assume that the markets think that FDev is good value for a takeover. I'm worried that if they get taken over all deals are off, us 2015 LEP holders can forget it. Maybe all us LEPers need to buy shares in FDev to vote against a takeover and protect our investment

PS - I don't want a refund either, I want my Elite hopes and dreams to be fulfilled

 

[Jex =TE=]

I would like to remind that people begged to offer LEP for sale after FD closed that feature off. I guess they wanted to avoid discussions like this.

To give some feel...they netted some 200k - 400k with LEP. Comparing to 40m they have netted with game together now.

If you feel you need try to refund - do that. Playing Horizons might be seen as voiding that refund though (my guess).

Citation please.

 

[Jex =TE=]

in ever dwindling numbers until just Sleutlebos is left,

That made me LOL

 

[Jex =TE=]

You don't even read the posts you reply to, do you?

word.