Can we drop the "ED is not EVE" moaning?

[Martian Successor]

The guilds thing, he constantly said he didn't want them and wanted a different kind of MMO; but that was when he was trying to raise money and I have a feeling he said many things to many people which have turned out to be snake-oil.

Well "guilds" is a very wide term in the context of MMOs. Different MMOs allow for different accessibility and features when they implement such a general sounding feature as "guild support". In a way Braben has already built a "different" type of MMO because of the 3 seperate modes all able to equally influence the BGS. Whatever he puts in next will by definition be different to other MMO's because of the 3 modes being equal as far as the shared BGS is concerned.

Plus, all we know so far is that Squadrons, i.e. FD's definition of out of game player groups, will be able to have mobile docking ships for repair/refuel/rearm. Too soon to tell what this actually means for the game in my opinion. I'd need more info from FD before I can decide whether this will be a good, bad or indifferent addition.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

What proportion of the player-base does that constitute? Logically it is not "everyone" - as there are those who do not seek such changes.



Whether it is a problem or a feature of the game rather depends on one's opinion.

There were those that expressed their negative opinions regarding the existence of the three game modes from the outset, in early 2013 - Frontier developed their game in accordance with their stated design in that regard - the antipathy of some backers did not sway them from following their own path.

Some people have been speaking up - however if they do not represent a sufficient number for Frontier to even consider such a fundamental change then I very much doubt that it will change to any significant degree.

Listen. Im not going to argue semantics with a mod. You argue for the sake of it. And quite frankly you're part of the problem. Have a good day.

 

[Noctover]

How convenient for you, instead you could read it as 'there is a lot of lore based systems in this game and I would rather not have commander PWNZURESTUFF of the guild WEOWNZALL screwing it up more than Frontier already have with some of their faction placements.

But that's fine, I understand that lore and immersion are dirty words in your vocabulary when compared to 'own and pew'.

You seem to like making assumptions but lets just analize what it is you want filed "where the sun dosent shine".

Firstly, i never said one mode, but nice try using it as your defence further down.

Secondly, who said anything about commanders owning mainstream systems? Theres billions of empty unowned systems people could "own". I apologise i did not lay down a 2 year business plan on the idea...

Thirdly, guilds/clans/corps, we can shove that, right? Why? You a solo player? Because your solo we can "shove" in game supported player communities? Ok buddy.

Fourth, fixing the P2P system, that barely allows you to stay in a wing half the time, fixing that dosent benefit you right? So lets shove that too!

Blockading, yeah...We have CGs that involve doing things that benefit one alliance whilst directly opposing another, and yet the opposing side can never be found attempting to stop it. CGs cannot be lost. CGs are 50% finished.

Do you mine? If not we should bin the rocks aswell, does not benefit you!

 

[Robert Maynard]

You argue for the sake of it.

I offer a different opinion with regard to the notion that the three game modes and single shared galaxy state are a "problem" that needs solving - I consider these to be core features of the game.

And quite frankly you're part of the problem.

If, by problem, you mean one of the players that don't agree with the "three modes are a problem" point of view, yes.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

I offer a different opinion with regard to the notion that the three game modes and single shared galaxy state are a "problem" that needs solving - I consider these to be core features of the game.



If, by problem, you mean one of the players that don't agree with the "three modes are a problem" point of view, yes.

If it wasnt. Then we wouldnt have 3 years of the hotel california, Robert. Hello?

 

[Theodrid]

You seem to like making assumptions but lets just analize what it is you want filed "where the sun dosent shine".

Firstly, i never said one mode, but nice try using it as your defence further down.

Secondly, who said anything about commanders owning mainstream systems? Theres billions of empty unowned systems people could "own". I apologise i did not lay down a 2 year business plan on the idea...

Thirdly, guilds/clans/corps, we can shove that, right? Why? You a solo player? Because your solo we can "shove" in game supported player communities? Ok buddy.

Fourth, fixing the P2P system, that barely allows you to stay in a wing half the time, fixing that dosent benefit you right? So lets shove that too!

Blockading, yeah...We have CGs that involve doing things that benefit one alliance whilst directly opposing another, and yet the opposing side can never be found attempting to stop it. CGs cannot be lost. CGs are 50% finished.

Do you mine? If not we should bin the rocks aswell, does not benefit you!

You got some front talking about assumptions......

Firstly, answer me this then, if the modes are intact how are you going to 'blockade' anything?

Secondly, so you are happy that your owned system is what 1000, 5000, 15000ly from inhabited space? - no, didn't think so.

Thirdly, No, not a solo player, sorry if that doesn't suit you, on guilds, no problem if their functionality doesn't impinge on others but as with your 'blockade' comment you don't want that either.

Fourthly, like it or not, (and I wouldn't have minded a server farm with a subscription to be honest), P2P has massive limitations, what you want fixed isn't going to happen across a P2P infrastructure.

Finally, rocks are not stopping players entering a system, rocks are not power hungry dweebs that require loyalty to mine them and rocks don't wanna shoot folk for the lulz.

 

[Robert Maynard]

If it wasnt. Then we wouldnt have 3 years of the hotel California, Robert. Hello?

We have three years (more like five years, actually) of complaints from players that, for whatever reason, don't want players to be able to play in a different mode from them (and still experience and affect the same galaxy state) simply because Frontier have stuck to their design philosophy. Put simply, Frontier have not chosen to change the game for all players to suit the play-style of some players.

Whether one considers their design philosophy, in relation to players' freedom to choose how many players they play among, to be a feature or a problem is a matter of opinion - Frontier's opinion would seem to remain that it is a feature.

 

[EvE4evah]

There are grounds for concerns to be raised. The Elite franchise has always been about you, a lone pilot, making your own way and reputation in a hostile universe.

I for one don't want that to change and do not want it like Eve that effectively forces you to form groups to gain access to services and bases etc.

Been there and done that, and while we were more of a loose association of players with isk who could create our own corporations and alliance to access the content we needed we were still forced to become a group to gain access. I don't want ED going that way.

<snip>

EvE doesn't actually force a player into anything, aside from having a healthy level of paranoia and self-preservation instincts. One of many playstyles the game allows to exist is the Lone Wolf pirate, looking for 1v1s or outnumbered fights in LowSec. Many of the awesome PvPers in that game flourished in that regard. Although in the last 3 years the game has catered to said playstyle less and less. Having so many different playstyle options, from the station trader/market manipulator to the wormhole exploration loner, it's true that you can't do all the things, all the time, I can agree with that.

But introducing Squads and mobile bases in ED is hardly content locking. We already have Solo, PG and many other things that cater to the lone players. We definitely need more co-op stuff, and group vs group stuff in ED. It's multi-player after all…

 

[EvE4evah]

Times have changed and moved on - I'd honestly get used to it, folks, because the world isn't stopping progress for you.

Squadrons will only, on a practical basis, exist in multiplayer - players can still be lone pilots, there's nothing stopping that (in any game mode).

Considering this is a multiplayer game in either Open or Private Group in 2017 going on 2018, it is a bit selfish to deny pilots of all ages etc. the tools they need to co-exist and work as a group simply because the originals could only be single player anyway (there was no such thing as public internet in all versions of those games - if there was, there may have been multiplayer, no?).

I'm looking forward to it; FINALLY we get Guild/Fleet/Squadron mechanics - and honestly, this game will dwindle and die without it - this game cannot be sustained by a few dedicated loners, small factions, or gank groups forever, the longevity just isn't there to cater for a company that is getting larger all the time.

Once Squadrons has been implimented, this game will be closer to a true MMO.

Wing missions will also be a thing, and I hope that also includes multi-crew down the line.

Awesome.

 

[wrmiller]

Love Solo, and to a lesser extent Mobius. As long as Solo exists, I will continue to play. But if it is FD's intent to turn this game into a MMO only game like Eve I will throw it in the trash and move on to better things.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

And people still crying on the forums

Just this should be enough to dismiss anything you say. Can't discuss things like an adult, so why bother?

When other people complain, it's crying, when you complain it's constructive criticism right?

 

[Iskariot]

"ED is not EVE online!"
"Let's not turn this into EVE"
"Oh this is becoming EVE now, I'm out!"

This has been a topic brought up multiple times in the past, but never as often as recently, after FD announced the upcoming player "Squadrons" being able to own what's essentially a mobile base. So essentially a guild system.
A lot of people have long since argued that for long-time players to remain invested, you need to create something for them to care for, to maintain and own. On the other side of the argument, often times more of a reflex than an articulated opinion with reasons behind it, was the "ED is not EVE" movement. And to be perfectly honest I'm sick of hearing the same old complaint to be brought up time and again.

Yes, ED is not EVE. And a guild system won't turn it into EVE either. There's no way for player groups to restrict your movement in Elite. Space is really really big and you can always get to wherever you want. This is in sharp contrast to EVE online, with its less than 10.000 star systems. And here's the thing: Few people are even able to say anything beyond that initial "ED is not EVE" complaint. It's this weird reflex that anything EVE-like is bad, without justification.

Is it the ganking? We already got that here. At least ED has private groups and/or solo, so problem solved.
Is it the toxicity of the community? No game feature will make that better or worse. In fact, I'd argue that a proper C&P system does more to fix that, than a guild system could do to make it worse.
Is it elitism in game events? Well, remember Salome? Remember "all defending ships must be unarmed"? Tell me more about how there isn't already at least some scum and villainy, and how having actual player organisations in the game will make it "bad like EVE"...

No seriously. Stop moaning about Squadrons "turning ED into EVE". It's not.

Or if you think it is, and you have arguments to back up your complaint, bring them up. If they are able to stand on their own, then you probably don't have to mention EVE in the process, as if it was some kind of stigma.

I have nothing against squadrons, Wings, multiplayer crew etc.
But I do feel that I as a pure solo cmdr should at least get to enjoy an NPC wing mechanic and NPC crew mechanic.

 

[Jmanis]

EvE doesn't actually force a player into anything, aside from having a healthy level of paranoia and self-preservation instincts. One of many playstyles the game allows to exist is the Lone Wolf pirate, looking for 1v1s or outnumbered fights in LowSec. Many of the awesome PvPers in that game flourished in that regard. Although in the last 3 years the game has catered to said playstyle less and less. Having so many different playstyle options, from the station trader/market manipulator to the wormhole exploration loner, it's true that you can't do all the things, all the time, I can agree with that.

But introducing Squads and mobile bases in ED is hardly content locking. We already have Solo, PG and many other things that cater to the lone players. We definitely need more co-op stuff, and group vs group stuff in ED. It's multi-player after all…

This 100%

I did the corporation thing when I started in 2004, hated it and went solo in 2007.
Ran missions in a quiet corner of low-sec for a while.
By 2009, made a billion (when a billion for an individual still meant something), got into Industry. Launched a business, got shareholders to kickstart it to the tune of 4b, turned that into 20b credits within a few months, cashed out my investors left myself with 8b.
Then turned my eye to nullsec exploration on my own. Nothing gave me a bigger thrill than pilfering the "hard-earned" rewards of hacking and archaeology sites in player-owned space right from under their noses and making it back to high-sec with hundreds of millions in the cargo hold on a weekly basis.
I now do that, and Planetary Industry.

I've never owned Sovereign space, and I've only ever ran hi/low-sec POS, and I've never owned a supercapital. But why would I? Logistics of a nullsec tower in hostile space is pants, and supercaps are only really useful if you have wings of people being boosted by them. I can do everything I need to on my own, and more.

I have always been, rather than the lone-wolf in EVE, the lone-rabbit to the wolves, and I'm good at being that rabbit and never getting caught. Sure, I get caught sometimes and it hurts when I do, but it's crazy fun.

Dare I say, that's "blazing my own trail" right there.

 

[Stigbob]

Love Solo, and to a lesser extent Mobius. As long as Solo exists, I will continue to play. But if it is FD's intent to turn this game into a MMO only game like Eve I will throw it in the trash and move on to better things.

The ED test is can an independent pilot opt out, and the answers always yes. That isn't going to change, no matter how much people have been complaining since pre-release about it.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Just this should be enough to dismiss anything you say. Can't discuss things like an adult, so why bother?

When other people complain, it's crying, when you complain it's constructive criticism right?

There is a difference here. I dont cry. I back my stuff up with evidence. Always have. Thats the difference. Robert here just used his opinion. And I've always sourced or given proof behind the problem. And I've also went through great lengths to back up anything I have said.

So yeah. You are 100% correct.

 

[wrmiller]

The ED test is can an independent pilot opt out, and the answers always yes. That isn't going to change, no matter how much people have been complaining since pre-release about it.

I sincerely hope it doesn't change.

I am looking forward to many aspects of the coming releases next year, and as mentioned above it would be nice if solo players could get NPC crew/wing mechanics, but I'm not optimistic about ever seeing that. Oh well, can't have everything.

 

[Jmanis]

The ED test is can an independent pilot opt out, and the answers always yes. That isn't going to change, no matter how much people have been complaining since pre-release about it.

If ED's kickstarter had said from the outset it would be only online, "Open" gameplay, I probably wouldn't have kicked it, but they promised Offline mode. When they backed out and said it would all be online, but there would be "modes" for solo and open online, I was a little meh, but I dealt with.

 

[Robert Maynard]

If ED's kickstarter had said from the outset it would be only online, "Open" gameplay, I probably wouldn't have kicked it, but they promised Offline mode. When they backed out and said it would all be online, but there would be "modes" for solo and open online, I was a little meh, but I dealt with.

The three online game modes, unlike Offline mode, existed in the Kickstarter pitch from the very beginning - Offline mode was added to the pitch about halfway through (and, sadly, cancelled before release).

 

[Jmanis]

The three online game modes, unlike Offline mode, existed in the Kickstarter pitch from the very beginning - Offline mode was added to the pitch about halfway through (and, sadly, cancelled before release).

I'll clarify; Offline mode was promised when I first heard about the Elite Dangerous kickstarter

 

[Valorin]

I'll clarify; Offline mode was promised when I first heard about the Elite Dangerous kickstarter

I kinda remember people getting refunds because of these things. Which essential means, that everybody participating in the Kickstarter and is still playing should be fine with what we have now.