Blaspheming against the flight model.

[Rubbernuke]

ED has bigger issues than flight model. In certain ships you don't have to move at all as you are sitting in a tungsten block surrounded by a massive energy curtain backed up by huge amounts of SCBs.

Sort that out, and then we can metaphorically get moving again.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

That's how Science-Fiction works, have you seen Star Wars?

Thermal exhaust port

I have seen Star Wars - I despise Star Wars!

Unfortunately Frontier modeled the flight model on the vapid and stoooopid Star Wars because it 'looks good' on the cinema screen. Also unfortunately, what looks good on the cinema screen - sweeping views of ships flying as if in an atmosphere - doesn't translate very well when you're in the cockpit of a ship doing that, to players who expect something less insane.

 

[dannysquid]

ED has the most fun flight model in any space game I've played, including I-WAR, which was only fun for a time because it was something new and different. The most important thing - it also does a pretty good job at making many of the ships feel different to fly, which is crucial in a game like this. I don't even wanna start on BVR combat, which is horrible even in hard SF pen and paper games and only works for single player jet fighter simulations... kind of, cause it's not really the gameplay of the fight that is fun in those games... and would be a nightmate in a multiplayer game.

Really guys, there are so many things in this game that could benefit from improvement... but the flight model isn't part of it.

Absolutely.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Got to love it when someone partial quotes and misses the context.

I actually said "That looks terrible in either case" as in there are two cases presented, and they both look terrible.

Both what look terrible?

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I love it when I read comments like this

Because they are opinions coloured by not using the Frontier: Elite II flight model correctly, in the past

Isinona made a fantastic video showing how the Newtonian flight model was actually rather good. In my opinion that smashes the old myth that Frontier: Elite II's Newtonian flight model was bad.

It wasn't bad - it was the pilots who were bad

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UMIbdN0UFE

Damn. Whilst I love ED flight model I really fancy a bit if 1st encounters now

Both flight models have merit it really just depends of what the Devs want

IIRC When ED 1st launched it didn't have the magic bleed off speed with FA off. It meant it was massive advantage to the player who wanted to run (no Pipps needed for weapons so 4 to engines and 2 to shields. It also meant players in big ships could tank against little ships and fly backwards killing the little ship before it could get in close where it could use agility to its advantage.

The speed bleed off was added as it was claimed to encourage more enjoyable combat.

 

[Aldaris]

Both what look terrible?

What about my comment are you having problems keeping up with? You posted a video.

 

[CMDR Pugwash]

The speed limit is necessary restriction in an multiplayer environment. The rest are for pew pew.

Personally, i would prefer it to be as realistic as possible. If it gets too silly I feel like I'm flying a magic space pony.

 

[Krieger]

Just my 2ct.

I have no preference for either flightmodel (aircraft-like or pure space flight). If done right both can be fun. In the Kickstarter days FDEV said they wanted WW2-like dogfights to prevent boring turreting and jousting matches like in FE2 (apparently many players ended up doing that in FE2). This led to the flightmodel we now have in ED.

Despite that I think that turreting and jousting matches is excatly what we have right now (and they are extra boring because they last too long).

I think two things contribute to this: 1. the flightmodel misses an important property, 2. exaggerated performance due to Engineers mods.

The missing property in the flightmodel is maximum angle-of-attack (AoA: angle between direction of travel and direction where the ship is pointing). In an aircraft max AoA limits where you can point your weapons in relation to your flight path. If you exceed max AoA the plane slalls and you become a sitting duck for your opponent. This is why aircraft have to out-manoeuvre each other first before they can open fire. In ED we can point our ship (and weapons) everywhere we like without losing control (high pointing capability).

This pointing capability is further enhanced by Engineers (dirty drives) due to the large increase in pitch rate those mods give. It is difficult to escape from the firing line of such an opponent and only boosting helps for a short while (also enhanced by dirty drives). Hence the typical joust-boost-and-point style of combat in the current game (the combat AI of NPCs also capitalises on this). Another popular approach is to build even bigger shields and armour and simply tank the damage (giving long TTK). Or both.

Adding a max AoA property to the flightmodel this late in the game's development takes courage but maybe it could be tried out in a beta? Just to see how it works. Same goes for reigning in the effects of Engineers mods.

My final thought is that maybe we simply expect too much from the devs. After all they are game devs and not experts in flight dynamics and air combat manoeuvring.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

What about my comment are you having problems keeping up with? You posted a video.

I posted a video of someone flying the ship nicely.

The video shows realistic space combat, flown by a pilot who got gud at Newtonian space flight and combat.

You came back with 'that looks terrible', without specifying what you thought looked terrible.

Was it the graphics from this game from 25 years ago?

Was it the flight model?

Was it the different skill set required to fly the ship properly in Newtonian space?

Was it the thought of the extra effort required in getting gud at Newtonian flight which puts you off it?

Was it something else?

"That looks terrible" might mean something in your mind because you know what you are talking about. Others can't read your mind.

I could point in some vague direction at something and say 'That looks terrible' - the other person will be wondering what looks terrible - and they will ask you to be more specific.

 

[metascrawl]

I have seen Star Wars - I despise Star Wars!

Unfortunately Frontier modeled the flight model on the vapid and stoooopid Star Wars because it 'looks good' on the cinema screen. Also unfortunately, what looks good on the cinema screen - sweeping views of ships flying as if in an atmosphere - doesn't translate very well when you're in the cockpit of a ship doing that, to players who expect something less insane.

Oh yes. Quite brilliant. They should have absolutely have made a game designed to appeal to science fiction fans who hate Star Wars. What a sound commercial descion that would have been.

As for your posts about FE2 - it doesn't matter if it's possible to get good at that sort of flight model, if doing so requires an effort few people are willing to make. The game needs to appeal to a broad audience. Call it lowest common denomiator if you will, but without some mass appeal the game could not exist at all.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Oh yes. Quite brilliant. They should have absolutely have made a game designed to appeal to science fiction fans who hate Star Wars. What a sound commercial descion that would have been.

Well they did - about 25-odd years ago, and it was called Frontier: Elite II

And it was very popular.

And some people got gud at the Newtonian flight model.

And the others just blamed the flight model.

And I just noticed your avatar and it made me smile

Regards o9

 

[Aldaris]

I posted a video of someone flying the ship nicely.

The video shows realistic space combat, flown by a pilot who got gud at Newtonian space flight and combat.

You came back with 'that looks terrible', without specifying what you thought looked terrible.

Was it the graphics from this game from 25 years ago?

Was it the flight model?

Was it the different skill set required to fly the ship properly in Newtonian space?

Was it the thought of the extra effort required in getting gud at Newtonian flight which puts you off it?

Was it something else?

"That looks terrible" might mean something in your mind because you know what you are talking about. Others can't read your mind.

I could point in some vague direction at something and say 'That looks terrible' - the other person will be wondering what looks terrible - and they will ask you to be more specific.

Yes, in a thread talking about the flight model, I'm going to be talking about the graphics In your analogy, it would be like having a discussion about architecture with another person, that person then pointing at a building and saying "That looks terrible", and you questioning what they're talking about.

Context, yet again, is everything.

Also got to love the ego and elitism you're showing here. Stop with the get good nonsense. Someone can get good with a thing, and that thing still being terrible.

 

[metascrawl]

Well they did - about 25-odd years ago, and it was called Frontier: Elite II

And it was very popular.

And some people got gud at the Newtonian flight model.

And the others just blamed the flight model.

And I just noticed your avatar and it made me smile

Regards o9

It was not made specifically for people that didn't like Star Wars and it was popular despite its flight model (which was fine for everything except combat) not because of it. Braben clearly thought it was a mistake or he wouldn't have changed it for ED would he?

 

[nexxo]

In the science fiction short story "Arena" by Fredric Brown (first published in the June 1944 issue of Astounding Science Fiction magazine, and later to be the basis for a much cheesier episode of the same name in Star Trek) space combat is described as lasting about three seconds. You barely get to see your opponent: they are a blip on a target acquisition scanner. Your systems lock on, you count the seconds and you pull the trigger when the FIRE sign flashes. Your opponent (be assured) is doing the same. All this happens with the usual speed of computers and high-tech weaponry; if you manage to get to "three", you won.

There is also a nice description in ALIEN lore of an exchange of fire between a Conestoga-class troop transport ship of the United States Colonial Marine Corps and a similar hostile. Again the ships barely make visual contact: there are brief radar sweeps and attempts to localise each other by parallax drift against the star field without revealing one's own position. Lock on is followed by a continuous targetting pulse (which tells you you're in trouble) and missile or laser fire --while you frantically burn your thrusters trying to change position. The whole exchange again barely takes seconds.

Basically: dramatic space combat as shown in Star wars, Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica and indeed Elite Dangerous takes a lot of artistic licence for dramatic effect. Don't take it seriously, and don't take it as a realistic approximation of what high-tech space battle is scientifically extrapolated to be like. Like in Star wars, it's quite deliberately WWII-styled dogfighting in space. It's space opera*.

* In which respect I wish that Fdev would commit to that. Their science is all over the place --one moment trying to rigidly adhere to all its principles, the other sacrificing it for dramatic licence. It's a tricky balance but it has to be consistent.

 

[aardappelianen]

I don't really like the current flight model much either but what really bums me out is the fact that if this model is to emulate ww2 style dogfighting why dont our fixed weapons converge like they did on ww2 planes? I find it really annoying to have multiple fixed weapon groups wich i have to switch while swaying my ship so i can get a full salvo on target
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_harmonisation

 

[Iskariot]

So, have you played Elite Frontier? Because if you lust for realism, that one has you covered. And it is not a lot of fun.

I agree.
I played Frontier: Elite II a lot.
Enjoying combat was impossible.

I like the current flight model much, much better.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

It was not made specifically for people that didn't like Star Wars and it was popular despite its flight model (which was fine for everything except combat) not because of it. Braben clearly thought it was a mistake or he wouldn't have changed it for ED would he?

I know David Braben thought the flight model was a mistake.

It was a mistake because most people can't cope with Newtonian space flight , and don't find it fun - and a game needs to be fun for most people.

So don't get me wrong here - I'm merely stating I find the flight model grating - as I did back a couple of years ago (and still have the scars! )

And I recognise that probably the majority of players like the 'training wheels' flight model - and that's also fine, because that's in the end what matters.

Still gets my own personal goat though

Regards o9

 

[metascrawl]

I know David Braben thought the flight model was a mistake.

It was a mistake because most people can't cope with Newtonian space flight , and don't find it fun - and a game needs to be fun for most people.

So don't get me wrong here - I'm merely stating I find the flight model grating - as I did back a couple of years ago (and still have the scars! )

And I recognise that probably the majority of players like the 'training wheels' flight model - and that's also fine, because that's in the end what matters.

Still gets my own personal goat though

Regards o9

Fair play.

 

[galahad2069]

Exactly, he's basically asking for hand holding. @Devari, learn to control the ship or keep FA engaged, the last thing I would want to see in game is rotational dampening with assist off.

What is your point against having rotational dampening in FAoff (apart from that you already have "gitten gud" in having to stop your rotation manually)?

 

[Ian Doncaster]

And some people got gud at the Newtonian flight model.

And the others just blamed the flight model.

The FE2/FFE flight model was very easy to be effective in, because the NPC AI was utterly terrible at it, and the NPCs had nowhere near the weapons or shields a player in the same sort of ship would have.

You could sit behind any of the big ships, casually adjusting thrust and pecking them to death, because:
- they didn't have turrets fitted to their turret mounts
- they didn't have anything fitted to their aft mounts
- they insisted on trying to get clear before turning round (which they couldn't, because you had better acceleration) rather than spinning, reversing, and swatting you in a millisecond with their plasma accelerator or 20 MW beam laser
- they had pretty terrible aim even when you were in front of them
- missiles had torpedo-like ammo and multiple lightweight counters so could basically be ignored after the very early game

Alternatively, you could take a big ship yourself, fit a plasma accelerator turret and a bunch of shields, and instantly destroy any ship large enough to carry any weapons large enough to threaten you, because they wouldn't bring their own insta-death beam (if they'd remembered to fit one) on target quickly enough.