PvP Aliens are ruining PvP

[Agony_Aunt]

In this case, I am mostly referring to the "PvP community", which tends to agree on what constitutes a good vs great vs god roll.

Perhaps I should have left out the "at large" portion of that statement... but the community "at large", including the PvP community have been making a few unfounded assumptions based on Sandro's statement.

Indeed.

 

[Morbad]

You know - biggest event ever happening in this universe.

By what metric?

My CMDR's personal narrative is barely influenced by Thargoids. He's taken a look at them, decided they aren't really much of a threat, and gone back to business as usual.

When in war zone against biggest threat to humanity I am likely to meet mostly serial killers in expensive ships doing it for pleasure, I simply can't believe this world

The only in-game evidence that Thargoids are a serious threat to humanity are sensationalized Galnet articles and a handful of wrecked ships/stations. Actually running into them has shown me that Pilot's Federation members are often vastly more dangerous, and far more widespread.

It's not the players' or CMDR's fault that Thargoids don't scare them into cooperation when they are depicted as largely passive and often not risky to engage.

 

[ALGOMATIC]

With all respect to your reasoning, I think, your behavior is pretty rude itself. People you are complaining about are playing in open because they want cooperative play against aliens. You know - biggest event ever happening in this universe. They don't need your PvP.

I've recently started a second commander, and mostly play in open, simply because it is more interesting to see some other commanders from time to time. I cannot do it consistently though because of people like you. Not because I am afraid to lose a ship or money - because it breaks spirit of the game, which is to me a simulation of believable universe.

When in war zone against biggest threat to humanity I am likely to meet mostly serial killers in expensive ships doing it for pleasure, I simply can't believe this world, so I would avoid you any legal way I can. The best of which is turning on some device which which filters scumbags out, regretfully with many false positives.

If you want a simulation of believable universe, you got exactly this, murderers and psychopaths flying hunting and killing innocents, this is how it would be in RL where the the area of operations is large enough and a the law doesn't have enough resources to enforce peace and order (see: Wild West).

What you are asking for is an arcade game with fake rules to make your playing time safe and productive without any risks involved. This is not how believable immersive universe works.

 

[Starshoy]

If you want a simulation of believable universe, you got exactly this, murderers and psychopaths flying hunting and killing innocents, this is how it would be in RL where the the area of operations is large enough and a the law doesn't have enough resources to enforce peace and order (see: Wild West).

What you are asking for is an arcade game with fake rules to make your playing time safe and productive without any risks involved. This is not how believable immersive universe works.

Your impression of Wild West is mostly from arcade games, I suppose. Killing in real life involves and always involved huge risks and expenses, that's why bandit is usually in hiding, stands no chance against dedicated law forces, is mostly equipped to hit and run and, surprisingly, does not kill for pleasure.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

If you want a simulation of believable universe, you got exactly this, murderers and psychopaths flying hunting and killing innocents, this is how it would be in RL where the the area of operations is large enough and a the law doesn't have enough resources to enforce peace and order (see: Wild West).

whilst i do not claim to be 100% up on the wild west, my limited knowledge of it is not as you claim........ AFAIK the punishment for crimes committed was pretty damn harsh, I assume in part because it was relatively hard to catch the bad guys so when they were caught.......................

it sounds to me you got your history from the game red dead redemption, which i do not think is 100% accurate

 

[Tadeus72]

Well no. The Elite universe isn't a Mad Max like setting and Fdev already promised to introduce further C&P steps (aka Super Cops) which is good and is needed for a more refined Open experience.It's supposed to be a world ruled by the superpowers where the players are only small fish. But right now having half a dozen friends in combat ships is enough to rule the galaxy and the world mostly ignores the kiling sprees and has no tools whatsoever to even limit it in any way.

 

[ALGOMATIC]

Your impression of Wild West is mostly from arcade games, I suppose. Killing in real life involves and always involved huge risks and expenses, that's why bandit is usually in hiding, stands no chance against dedicated law forces, is mostly equipped to hit and run and, surprisingly, does not kill for pleasure.

Enforcing the law in a wide territory such as a star system is almost an impossible task. Naturally, you will have outlaws emerging from such vacuum of enforcement.
Seems to me the simulation part is done right.

 

[Starshoy]

It's rude of you to expect me to change how I play the game (and it's also pretty darn rude of you to imply that I am a scumbag... this is the kind of salt that turns my encounters into less than friendly ones).

I am not implying you are a scumbag, but you surely are playing one in this universe, right? If your killings are not for pleasure only, then I misunderstood what you were saying, sorry.

I do not object to your way of enjoyment of this game, your actions are legal (and CLs are not). But they are also pretty egotistical. Why should you expect positive reaction to what you do?

 

[Tadeus72]

Yeah sure. And known murderers are still perfect citizen with full access to services and high standing with local powers. There is nothing immersive in the current system. It's just unrefined, mostly due to solo and PG being an excuse for choosing other priorities until now.

 

[Starshoy]

Enforcing the law in a wide territory such as a star system is almost an impossible task. Naturally, you will have outlaws emerging from such vacuum of enforcement.
Seems to me the simulation part is done right.

This whole thread is not about large territory. It is Maia and Merope, staging area of huge military forces. Killing for pleasure there should be possible, but extremely risky.

 

[Martian Successor]

Spoiler

I agree with what you said earlier about docking restrictions and that only anarchy and maybe independent stations should allow you to dock. Everywhere else you should not be welcome and frankly you should be shoot down on site....

IMO anyone who kills a player in Federation/Empire/Alliance space which isn't wanted (for any reason) should be awarded with 33333 Cr bounty in all 3, this bounty should be lifetime (30 days - not forever) and you should only get this pardoned after 30 days period. It should not be cleared if you self destruct or if you get destroyed by someone else (Player od NPC). It should be cleared only after 30 days. To prevent "wings" from farming bounties from a wanted friend, a player should be able to collect bounty ONLY ONCE (and since profit isn't great it is not suitable for grinding anyway.

Wanted players should also be actively hunted by NPC police in these systems and NPC should be granted with basic scan so that they open fire on you sooner rather than waiting for scan to be done.

Anarchy systems should be off limits to any sort of killing there should be permitted. If someone goes there in shield-less T9 he/she should be ganked by all means.

Not saying that karma system I'm suggesting is perfect but certainly it is an improvement of what we currently have.

And to C-L issues, I suggest your ship remains in game for 5 minutes after your are either interdicted or was fired upon and to allow player/npc to kill you. Then you would have two choice:

1. Combat log and go to rebuy screen (this should be reported if spoted)
2. Stay in game and try to run or fight

Fully agree. But C&P has to be really punishing. 20 million Credits more for a rebuy means nothing if you have billions in your account. Trend catching means nothing if they will take months to set in stone. Pilots Federation bounty mens nothing if all it means is being wanted in more systems than usual. Serious crime needs SERIOUS consequences. Docking permissions revoked, Shinrarta Dezhra permit revoked. Insurance company refusing to give you your ship back when it's destroyed. The C&P systems needs to make that kind of players think twice, thrice or more times before they decide to gang up on an innocent player anywhere else than Anarchy systems.

System security rating is another completely meaningless thing. Does anyone feel safe in a High or Medium sec systems? I doubt it.

FDEV is making steps in the right direction, but the steps are small and I think until that's properly fixed, the combat logging will continue. Because this is the only real consequence the murderers face at this point - losing their victim right from under their noses. Again, I don't think it's right, CL is a cheat period. But it's happening for a reason and I really think you can't blame most of the CL's. The developers are to blame here really - and I say it being what you could call a fanboy of Elite and FDEV

I am not a fan of making C&P measures so crushingly punitive to the point where you basically might as well ban a player from the game for a week. That would be an extreme reaction in my opinion. Killing other players whether clean or not is still a part of the gameplay that is sold with ED. The thing that needs to be established in my opinion is the consequences of going on a killing spree. It needs to have a weight to it, enough so that it can discourage the sheer frequency of casual ganking sprees but not extreme enough that you're basically revoking a legit player's right to log into the game. By legit I mean they are not using cheats or hacks.

The goal is to disincentivise huge player murder sprees without tipping the scales so far the other way that one unlawful action essentially bars a player from over 70% of the game for a non-negotiable and prolonged period of time.

What I am a fan of is creating a gateway into compelling gameplay through a karma system. Star Citizen actually has developed a promising concept with this kind of thing. The gist of it is that they want to have gameplay that supports both the moral and the immoral playstyles and to give different bonuses to each play style but ones that are still balanced. Stuff ranging from exclusive weapons like immobilisation weapons for the pirates and decoy signal droppers for the traders. Lawful traders getting better profits in high security space while outlaws getting more profits for selling contraband in criminal parts of space. Kind of like a board game basically where all players have equal amounts of different strengths and weaknesses to utilise.

The basic idea is to create avenues of gameplay from the deployment of a karma system rather than it being primarily about punishing players for their choices. Think of it like the Paragon and Renegade paths one could take in the Mass Effect games. In ED it could work like this:
- You want to be a good guy, here's the stuff you can do that rewards you for being a good guy along with the consequences of that (i.e. Anarchies will be dangerous for you).
- You want to be an outlaw, here's the stuff that rewards you for being an outlaw along with the consequences of that (i.e. High Security systems will be dangerous for you).

The key word there is "rewards" to go along with the fact that certain areas of the game will be made much more difficult for you. If there's no rewards in conjunction with consequences for being on either side of the law then there is no meaning and that's one of ED's problems. Now excessive player killing, if not attached to Powerplay, gets you noticed by the Pilot's Federation. It is at that point where some form of direct punitive measures should start being deployed and scale up in severity with the number of player killing going on so as to discourage the meaningless murder spreeing just for the sake of it crowd.

 

[Tadeus72]

Actually, the military forces have withdrawn. But yes. There should be effective police/military forces where it makes sense (like the new weapon CGs that are supposed to safe humanity).

Edit. I don't think we need a reward system for the bad side. Star Citizen isn't really a good example. They just need tonnes of cash so they are promising everything to any potentiall player group out there. There is already a reward for killing and hunting players - it's almost always tonnes of fun. And you get a reward if it is a powerplay enemy.

 

[Starshoy]

By what metric?

My CMDR's personal narrative is barely influenced by Thargoids. He's taken a look at them, decided they aren't really much of a threat, and gone back to business as usual.

So do I. Except my main commander does participate in AEGIS because it corresponds my role play.
Which does not negate my main point, current open play leads to unrealistic scenarios. I am all for danger, and liked a lot when NPCs were briefly made dangerous (and now Thargoids are). I do hope C&P system will make open more reasonable environment.

As of general philosophy of Aliens and relations with them, it is interesting discussion, but I think we have other threads for it.

 

[ALGOMATIC]

This whole thread is not about large territory. It is Maia and Merope, staging area of huge military forces. Killing for pleasure there should be possible, but extremely risky.

First of all Maia is an anarchy.

Second, what I meant is any star system is a devastatingly large area for us to even comprehend, can you imagine trying to enforce even our own solar system? forget about the whole solar system, try enforcing a law between Earth and Mars, the distances are beyond imaginary. You would need entire fleets, thousdands of military ships, and this is just to cover a distance between 2 planets.

 

[Starshoy]

First of all Maia is an anarchy.

Second, what I meant is any star system is a devastatingly large area for us to even comprehend, can you imagine trying to enforce even our own solar system? forget about the whole solar system, try enforcing a law between Earth and Mars, the distances are beyond imaginary. You would need entire fleets, thousdands of military ships, and this is just to cover a distance between 2 planets.

Come on, just as you can effectively hunt anyone in the system, so can military forces. By which scale is it large? It is mostly minutes of flight in almost every situation. As it was said, having CGs of huge importance unprotected is not realistic.

As of Maia being anarchy, yes, is a flaw of current BGS - this status was not reasonable with military presence of superpowers.

 

[rootsrat]

I think you have stumbled upon the crux of the issue here. It's not the killing that really bothers most people (IMO). It's the rude behavior in comms that some people seem inclined to inflict on others. There is really no good reason to rub it in when you kill someone else's space pixels (unless the other person gets salty about it... then a response in-kind may be warranted).

C&P does not need to be crushingly oppressive to be effective. You're letting your personal feelings show here. It smells of outrage, frankly. Not that I blame you. I was griefed (who'd a thunk it) a few times myself in the earlier days of my ventures into the wider ED universe. It can get under your skin. I responded by engineering the crap out of my ships and building a nice bank account. I am literally un-griefable now. That's not to say I'm un-killable, but I can afford to die numerous times if I'm outmatched, and still not care. I can also mete out quite a lot of violence when I'm so-inclined (which is pretty much always ).

You're mistaken. I try to think objectively. I wasn't griefed in a loooong time - I know how to avoid being griefed. I also know how to escape - so I'm rarely getting killed these days.

All you need for effective C&P is a solid NPC response in high security systems, and a somewhat lesser but still effective response in medium security systems. That's it. Why we don't have that is anybody's guess. It really should happen though. Of course the sidewinder exploit had to be fixed... but we're nearly there on that one.

I am not a fan of making C&P measures so crushingly punitive to the point where you basically might as well ban a player from the game for a week. That would be an extreme reaction in my opinion. Killing other players whether clean or not is still a part of the gameplay that is sold with ED. The thing that needs to be established in my opinion is the consequences of going on a killing spree. It needs to have a weight to it, enough so that it can discourage the sheer frequency of casual ganking sprees but not extreme enough that you're basically revoking a legit player's right to log into the game. By legit I mean they are not using cheats or hacks.

The goal is to disincentivise huge player murder sprees without tipping the scales so far the other way that one unlawful action essentially bars a player from over 70% of the game for a non-negotiable and prolonged period of time.

I still think that players who play in anti-social manner should have the opportunities to be anti-social reduced greatly. It's all about the consequences. Why would Pilots' Federation allow one of their members to dock at their home station right after that someone killed another member of the organisation for no reason? Why would a Federal security forces not continuously chase a guy who keeps murdering innocent people in their systems? Why an insurance company would be willing to repay a ship rebuy cost for a mass murderer? Murder is one of the most serious crimes in Elite and those who commit it should face the appropriate consequences. They should be isolated from civilised parts of space, but they should be allowed to roam free in Anarchy systems, maybe Dictatorships as well, I don't know. But murderers should not be granted opportunities to murder more as they please.

I don't mind losing my trade Anaconda to a wing of 4 god-rolled Vettes. That's part of the game. But an action like that should face serious consequences.

What I am a fan of is creating a gateway into compelling gameplay through a karma system. Star Citizen actually has developed a promising concept with this kind of thing. The gist of it is that they want to have gameplay that supports both the moral and the immoral playstyles and to give different bonuses to each play style but ones that are still balanced. Stuff ranging from exclusive weapons like immobilisation weapons for the pirates and decoy signal droppers for the traders. Lawful traders getting better profits in high security space while outlaws getting more profits for selling contraband in criminal parts of space. Kind of like a board game basically where all players have equal amounts of different strengths and weaknesses to utilise.

The basic idea is to create avenues of gameplay from the deployment of a karma system rather than it being primarily about punishing players for their choices. Think of it like the Paragon and Renegade paths one could take in the Mass Effect games. In ED it could work like this:
- You want to be a good guy, here's the stuff you can do that rewards you for being a good guy along with the consequences of that (i.e. Anarchies will be dangerous for you).
- You want to be an outlaw, here's the stuff that rewards you for being an outlaw along with the consequences of that (i.e. High Security systems will be dangerous for you).

The key word there is "rewards" to go along with the fact that certain areas of the game will be made much more difficult for you. If there's no rewards in conjunction with consequences for being on either side of the law then there is no meaning and that's one of ED's problems. Now excessive player killing, if not attached to Powerplay, gets you noticed by the Pilot's Federation. It is at that point where some form of direct punitive measures should start being deployed and scale up in severity with the number of player killing going on so as to discourage the meaningless murder spreeing just for the sake of it crowd.

I full agree with you here. Being a bad guy, even a mass murderer is part of Elite world and it should be possible to play such a role should one want to. Blaze your own trail - with consequences, good and bad. Again - anti social behaviour should result in difficulties in operating in the civilised parts of space. A criminal should feel they are on the run in lawful systems.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Zaphod shoots everything in a hollow square. If that fits your notion of scumbag, so be it.
[...]
Personally, I've reached a point where immersion has gone out the window. Engineers did me in here... I think.

2 things.

Thanks for dropping the faux role playing act. Every time I read one of them "I shoot because I love Thargies" or similar excuses, I read it as an insult to the collective intelligence. Which is worst, from my point of view, to simply owning up to your playing style. After all, the argument is made many times it's a valid playing style, so why beat around the bush. You're after CMDRs. Fair enough.

Second, since you know the feeling of losing the immersion in the game, you know you also lose quite a bit of enjoyment in the game. However, the unfortunate byproduct of your playing style is, when you attack me for no reason, that's immersion breaking for me. Now I specifically used the word 'unfortunately' because I'm not handing out blame here. It's just the way it is. If a pirate interdicts me for cargo, a bounty hunter interdicts me for the price on my head, or I'm interdicted for any other in game reason, it's part of the landscape. If I'm being interdicted because I'm another player (a state of being that does not exist in the Elite universe) immersion goes out of the window.

I'm no idiot, I do realise this is a direct result of having human beings playing the game. So at first, I tried to get something out of the encounter by being glib (been playing Skyrim, does it show? ) in comms. Immediately informing the interdictor I had all the bibles I needed and already donate a decent amount to charity. Some banter like that. Never works, shooting ensues, until I'm facing a rebuy screen. It's clear the other CMDR is working on a tally. And I'm always left wondering, how was this fun for any party involved? Is aiming at a ship and keeping the fire button pressed so much more satisfying because the square is hollow? Does that make it any less farming? I'm not trying to evade or dodge because I won't be forced into an activity I have no wish in taking part of, so I'll just sit there. In return I'll never try to force anyone to go exploring.

Now I'm being told: PvP is challenging, and sure, I can see that when two skilled PvPers have at it. I'm being told PvPers look for the interaction with real people, but when trying to have a conversation, there's no response. So I am rather at a loss sometimes. You commented that people are throwing insults and misunderstanding your way. Is that the motivator? And some posts in you are happy to announce you finally got a good fight in. Which begs the question, if you know you're hunting in a system where people are carrying weapons which aren't that effective against other CMDRs, why go there to look for a good fight?

Why should it be any more risky in Maia than any other anarchy system?

The narrative. Humanity is fighting for survival and you are the spanner in the works. What you are doing is nothing short of treason towards the human race. I'd say that warrants some sort of response. Maia an sich isn't the reason it should be more risky, what's going on should.

 

[AnotherVoice]

The only consequence PvPer could ever care about is the availability of rare mats (EFC / BC / CIF) for engineering.

Make it so we (CMDR of the PF) have a galatic reputation (or karma ) that goes down everytime we kill another CMDR. Make it so the lower it is, the less minor factions would be willing to give us high ranked mission with rare mats as a reward.

 

[rootsrat]

The only consequence PvPer could ever care about is the availability of rare mats (EFC / BC / CIF) for engineering.

Make it so we (CMDR of the PF) have a galatic reputation (or karma ) that goes down everytime we kill another CMDR. Make it so the lower it is, the less minor factions would be willing to give us high ranked mission with rare mats as a reward.

No can do, as may PVP'ers farm those rare mats by working around the game modes. They'd find a data point that has a high drop rate of said materials and they would skip between Open/Solo for hours, just farming the mats. Almost actually playing the game, but not really

 

[AnotherVoice]

No can do, as may PVP'ers farm those rare mats by working around the game modes. They'd find a data point that has a high drop rate of said materials and they would skip between Open/Solo for hours, just farming the mats. Almost actually playing the game, but not really

Biotechs and Exquisites are already mission rewards only. Making cracked industrial firmware mission only too would solve the issue