Okay we need to talk about how wanted levels are handed out.

[Stealthie]

I'm asking genuinely, how do you know you are defending a clean ship?

Do you look at the fight going on and assume that ship 1 is the good guy and ship 2 is the bad guy? Do you scan one of the ships randomly, see they are clean, assume then that the other ship is a wanted criminal and open fire?

Pretty much.

Often you can see laser-fire in the distance and you can't target all of the combatants.
If you target one and they're clean it's a reasonable assumption that the ship(s) that ship is attacking are wanted.
After all, if the ship you targeted had shot first, that'd be the wanted ship.

Bearing in mind that it's often DBS's that attack, in packs, in RES's, you often have to get closer than 1km before you can target them so the only option is to try and score a hit on them without targeting them in order to try and divert their attention from their target.

Why is it so challenging in either of those situations to wait the 4 seconds to complete the scan on the presumed wanted ship to determine its status?

As above, when you've got 3 or 4 ships all attacking a clean ship and you're 2km away, by the time you've closed the distance so you're close enough to scan them all, target them and shoot them in order to distract them from their target, you can be looking at 30 seconds or more and that's certainly plenty of time for an innocent ship to be destroyed.

Obviously you are taking a risk by pre-emptively attacking another ship but that's a choice the player should be free to make.
It's daft that a ship might be in the middle of committing a criminal attack and still report another ship for engaging them without scanning first.

Fundamentally, the scan shouldn't have anything to do with whether or not you are considered to have committed a crime.
Attack a clean ship and you've committed a crime.
Attack a wanted ship and you haven't.

Simples!

 

[Faded Glory]

Pretty much.

Often you can see laser-fire in the distance and you can't target all of the combatants.
If you target one and they're clean it's a reasonable assumption that the ship(s) that ship is attacking are wanted.
After all, if the ship you targeted had shot first, that'd be the wanted ship.

Bearing in mind that it's often DBS's that attack, in packs, in RES's, you often have to get closer than 1km before you can target them so the only option is to try and score a hit on them without targeting them in order to try and divert their attention from their target.



As above, when you've got 3 or 4 ships all attacking a clean ship and you're 2km away, by the time you've closed the distance so you're close enough to scan them all, target them and shoot them in order to distract them from their target, you can be looking at 30 seconds or more and that's certainly plenty of time for an innocent ship to be destroyed.

Obviously you are taking a risk by pre-emptively attacking another ship but that's a choice the player should be free to make.
It's daft that a ship might be in the middle of committing a criminal attack and still report another ship for engaging them without scanning first.

Fundamentally, the scan shouldn't have anything to do with whether or not you are considered to have committed a crime.
Attack a clean ship and you've committed a crime.
Attack a wanted ship and you haven't.

Simples!

As I said in the rest of my post, if the game could link the ships in the fight it could immediately flag them as wanted as soon as targeted, but it can't (I assume) until we have interacted with them, or they with us.

It's no good repeating what you want as if I haven't understood it. I get it, you want players to to able to take an educated risk and attack an unscanned ship, if it turns out wanted, all good, if not, bounty...

I just don't think that FD want to do away with the need for verification before attacking or introduce grey areas into combat.

 

[NecasekO]

There's also the thing with scan information getting lost on supercruise transitions. So if you scan a ship in supercruise and find that it's wanted, then follow it to normal space, you have to scan it again before shooting although you know 100% that it's wanted. It's impossible for a ship to lose its wanted status while dropping to normal space.

 

[Suvi Anwar]

My biggest problem with the mechanics the way they are is the sometime horrendously long period it takes the scan to complete.
I like to drop out of SC when I get a NPC message of aggression and wait for the attacker to pop in, usually right in front of my waiting ship. On an almost regular basis, my scan has not completed before the NPC ship gets wheeled around and starts shooting.
The damn scan needs to be faster if they want to keep these stupidly thought up mechanics of fault.
Additionally, if a CMDR gets interdicted by a pirate or a mission attacker, the interdiction should automatically be considered a hostile action and not make the CMDR that was interdicted wait for a scan!

 

[Arry]

My biggest problem with the mechanics the way they are is the sometime horrendously long period it takes the scan to complete.
I like to drop out of SC when I get a NPC message of aggression and wait for the attacker to pop in, usually right in front of my waiting ship. On an almost regular basis, my scan has not completed before the NPC ship gets wheeled around and starts shooting.
The damn scan needs to be faster if they want to keep these stupidly thought up mechanics of fault.
Additionally, if a CMDR gets interdicted by a pirate or a mission attacker, the interdiction should automatically be considered a hostile action and not make the CMDR that was interdicted wait for a scan!

Once a target shot has hit your shields; hit the hostile button, they are automatically wanted.

 

[Suvi Anwar]

Once a target shot has hit your shields; hit the hostile button, they are automatically wanted.

My point is that I should have the advantage of getting the drop on a pirate by waiting for it to drop in, (or should be able to start shooting after being interdicted) I shouldn't have to wait for it to start shooting at me before it's "OK" to start shooting myself. That stupid scan sometimes takes 8-10 seconds, it should only take 1-2 seconds with the tech level in 3303.

 

[Arry]

My point is that I should have the advantage of getting the drop on a pirate by waiting for it to drop in, (or should be able to start shooting after being interdicted) I shouldn't have to wait for it to start shooting at me before it's "OK" to start shooting myself. That stupid scan sometimes takes 8-10 seconds, it should only take 1-2 seconds with the tech level in 3303.

If an NPC pulls me from SC then they are automatically wanted, I just press hostile and the target is ready to shot.

 

[V'larr]

I'm asking genuinely, how do you know you are defending a clean ship?

Because I scanned it earlier, usually. Trader/miner NPCs aren't difficult to distinguish, y'know.

And when have you *ever* found two ships shooting at each other that are both clean...?

Why is it so challenging in either of those situations to wait the 4 seconds to complete the scan on the presumed wanted ship to determine its status?

Challenging? It's frustrating and superfluous, not challenging. It's rather like the arbitrary wait timers I discuss in my saving time thread....

Let's remember you have to complete this scan *tens of thousands of times* on your way to Combat Elite (since you have to include scanning non-wanted ships here).

I don't believe the game can deal with grey areas, and once you open the door to having the possibility of shooting an unscanned ship, you will unleash floods of complaints when players do end up with bounties, claiming they shouldn't have, because the ship they shot must have been wanted. His wing mate was...

That's how player wings work. If one player is Wanted, the whole wing is treated as Wanted. Why should NPCs be any different? It's also how Multicrew appears to work, even if the Helm has cleared all wanted status...which I think needs fixing.

There wouldn't be any unleashing floods of complaints - plenty of those about the way things right now, and there wouldn't be opening doors of possibility either; how could it possibly be abused? If the ship is clean, you're in trouble. If it's not, you're forgiven and given a slap on the wrist at worst. All it would be doing is injecting some sense into the way Wanted status and friendly fire penalties work.

People clamour for consequences in the game. There's a consequence for shooting a ship that you don't know the status of. But we don't like the consequences...?

Clamor for consequences regarding what? And no, I *don't* like the current consequences - being elevated straight to full-out Wanted Murderer status is way over the top.

People often claim that friendly fire and a 400 credit bounty is a death sentence. It's not...

The first time it happened to me, a long time ago, I panicked, fumbled around a bit, but didn't leave quickly, so I was sent to the rebuy screen. After that, I knew to stow hard points, boost away from the battle and wake away. Never been destroyed that way since.

Again, IMO, while the fact that the authority all turn their attention on you isn't particularly realistic, it's consequence and challenge. If the player is allowed to hang around and kill steal the bounty despite shooting the police by mistake, there's not really much consequence, and the challenge is to be able to get away without being destroyed. It's not much of a challenge, but you do have to make a quick getaway.

Having to go through all of that - and sit and wait for the bounty to go dormant and then find a place to land and pay off the fine before you go back to doing what you were doing, all because of a single moment of non-lethal and likely non-damaging friendly fire - doesn't annoy you in the slightest? It doesn't strike you as silly and nonsensible whatsoever?

Really?

 

[Faded Glory]

Challenging? It's frustrating and superfluous, not challenging. It's rather like the arbitrary wait timers I discuss in my saving time thread....

Let's remember you have to complete this scan *tens of thousands of times* on your way to Combat Elite (since you have to include scanning non-wanted ships here).

Other wait timers I agree with you entirely. But this one, meh... Perhaps I'm just not aggressive enough, but it really doesn't bother me having to wait and scan a ship.

That's how player wings work. If one player is Wanted, the whole wing is treated as Wanted. Why should NPCs be any different? It's also how Multicrew appears to work, even if the Helm has cleared all wanted status...which I think needs fixing.

There wouldn't be any unleashing floods of complaints - plenty of those about the way things right now, and there wouldn't be opening doors of possibility either; how could it possibly be abused? If the ship is clean, you're in trouble. If it's not, you're forgiven and given a slap on the wrist at worst. All it would be doing is injecting some sense into the way Wanted status and friendly fire penalties work.

Well, you want some sense of realism, and in my view there's absolutely no reason why all (or indeed any) members of a wing of pirates attacking you in a specific jurisdiction should be wanted. They may have just dropped into this system for the first time to go in search of rich pickings, might be wanted elsewhere, but why here? Convenience for the player I suspect...

Most of the complaints that come up regarding friendly fire and not scanning before shooting are by trigger happy players, at least that would be my suspicion. I understand that you are trying to inject some 'realism' into the game, but it is a game, not realism. Not many places in the civilized world where everyone is a vigilante armed to the teeth, and very few where if you happened to shoot the wrong person in a brawl, even if they turned out to be baddy, you wouldn't end up in court...

I do understand you want to streamline things, but as I've said before, allowing players to shot before scanning, and not introducing 'traps' to make what is already simplistic gameplay a bit more challenging... I don't think FD want to do that, but who knows, I'm just a player.

Clamor for consequences regarding what? And no, I *don't* like the current consequences - being elevated straight to full-out Wanted Murderer status is way over the top.

Having to go through all of that - and sit and wait for the bounty to go dormant and then find a place to land and pay off the fine before you go back to doing what you were doing, all because of a single moment of non-lethal and likely non-damaging friendly fire - doesn't annoy you in the slightest? It doesn't strike you as silly and nonsensible whatsoever?

Really?

No, really it doesn't. First off I don't need to pay off the legacy fine, just wait for the bounty to expire. It's eight minutes, I jump away, and pretty much by the time I'm ready to go back, the bounty has expired. If a player gets destroyed by system authority for friendly fire (which would be the only reason for getting a dormant bounty), they are doing it wrong. Sorry, it's really, really easy to get away totally unscathed.

As I said in the post that you quoted, I don't think it's realistic, but I understand why it's that way. Either we can keep our fingers on the triggers and not care who gets hit, or we can be the 'Elite' pilots that the game has us aspire to, and strive to only hit who we are aiming at, and take the slap on the wrist that is the penalty for friendly fire is like the Elite pilot we want to be...

 

[Stealthie]

As I said in the post that you quoted, I don't think it's realistic, but I understand why it's that way. Either we can keep our fingers on the triggers and not care who gets hit, or we can be the 'Elite' pilots that the game has us aspire to, and strive to only hit who we are aiming at, and take the slap on the wrist that is the penalty for friendly fire is like the Elite pilot we want to be...

You previously said that there was no need for me to keep repeating the same things as if you didn't understand them.

Apparently, there is.

It's not about not caring who we shoot at, or hitting what we aim at, or being responsible for friendly fire.
It's about there being no reason for the "legality" of an attack to depend on whether a scan is carried out or not.

Shoot a clean ship and get a fine.
Shoot a wanted ship and paid.

The scanner should have no bearing on that outcome.

 

[Faded Glory]

You previously said that there was no need for me to keep repeating the same things as if you didn't understand them.

Apparently, there is.

It's not about not caring who we shoot at, or hitting what we aim at, or being responsible for friendly fire.
It's about there being no reason for the "legality" of an attack to depend on whether a scan is carried out or not.

Shoot a clean ship and get a fine.
Shoot a wanted ship and paid.

The scanner should have no bearing on that outcome.

No Stealthie, I do understand what you are asking for.

I just accept (and personally agree) that the scanner is an integral part of the outcome, as in you don't shoot at a ship you don't know to be wanted.

It's Ok, we can agree to disagree.

 

[Stealthie]

No Stealthie, I do understand what you are asking for.

I just accept (and personally agree) that the scanner is an integral part of the outcome, as in you don't shoot at a ship you don't know to be wanted.

It's Ok, we can agree to disagree.

The problem is that you're basing your arguments, and objections, on a fallacy.

You're suggesting that removing the significance of the scanner would "create a grey area" where people could just shoot at other ships without knowing whether they were wanted or not.

It wouldn't.

 

[Faded Glory]

The problem is that you're basing your arguments, and objections, on a fallacy.

You're suggesting that removing the significance of the scanner would "create a grey area" where people could just shoot at other ships without knowing whether they were wanted or not.

It wouldn't.

Alright... I'll be fine with FD saying shoot at anything you assume to be wanted without scanning, but only if they make it more realistic.

In my previous response, why should a wing of pirates be wanted in a jurisdiction? They shouldn't, they are only wanted because FD gives us wanted ships to shoot at all the time, so we can farm. If they give us freedom of choice to make educated assumptions, at least make it that the assumption has to be non binary and not simplistic. And I think if FD did that, then there would indeed be howls of protest from players caught out because they shot a ship they just knew was wanted, but turned out not to be.

Otherwise, just leave the game mechanic as is. If you want to shoot something and not get a bounty, verify it is wanted first by scanning, don't assume.

Truly I have some sympathy with what you are asking for / suggesting, but lets bring it back to the topic of this thread. A player (accidentally) shot a ship they shouldn't have. Wasn't even aiming at it or targeting it. But they think it's wrong that they got a slap on the wrist. I don't.

 

[V'larr]

Truly I have some sympathy with what you are asking for / suggesting, but lets bring it back to the topic of this thread. A player (accidentally) shot a ship they shouldn't have. Wasn't even aiming at it or targeting it. But they think it's wrong that they got a slap on the wrist. I don't.

Okay, well, what you call a "slap on the wrist" I call being hunted down with guns and bloodhounds. That is, having an active bounty placed on your head and becoming "Wanted" status, right-away.

Slap on the wrist wouldn't involve being instantly treated as a murderer by all the local system cops (including the ones immediately in your vicinity, which is usually the primary issue).

 

[Faded Glory]

Okay, well, what you call a "slap on the wrist" I call being hunted down with guns and bloodhounds. That is, having an active bounty placed on your head and becoming "Wanted" status, right-away.

Slap on the wrist wouldn't involve being instantly treated as a murderer by all the local system cops (including the ones immediately in your vicinity, which is usually the primary issue).

Sorry V'larr

It is a slap on the wrist. It's the game telling you don't shoot clean (or unverified) ships. If, after the first time you do it, you can't get away easily, then that's not the game at fault. It happens to me, so I speak from experience. It's absolutely trivial to escape.

Nobody hunts you down for a 400 credit, 8 minute bounty. You wake out of the system, and 8 minutes later you are as clean as the driven snow.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

That would be a very bad joke even on April 1st. What the actual hell? O.O

Something tells me you are new to the onion

 

[V'larr]

Sorry V'larr

It is a slap on the wrist. It's the game telling you don't shoot clean (or unverified) ships. If, after the first time you do it, you can't get away easily, then that's not the game at fault. It happens to me, so I speak from experience. It's absolutely trivial to escape.

Nobody hunts you down for a 400 credit, 8 minute bounty. You wake out of the system, and 8 minutes later you are as clean as the driven snow.

Trying to blow you up is just not comparable to a slap on the wrist, ever. It's not even comparable to locking you up in the cellhouse for an hour or two to think about what you've done. It is straight-up send-you-six-feet-under "frontier justice" (okay, the pun is intentional).

And yes, NPCs can, will, and do hunt you over paltry 400 credit 8 minute bounties. It's not 100% of the time but it does happen....

 

[Makdo]

My biggest problem with the mechanics the way they are is the sometime horrendously long period it takes the scan to complete.
I like to drop out of SC when I get a NPC message of aggression and wait for the attacker to pop in, usually right in front of my waiting ship. On an almost regular basis, my scan has not completed before the NPC ship gets wheeled around and starts shooting.
The damn scan needs to be faster if they want to keep these stupidly thought up mechanics of fault.
Additionally, if a CMDR gets interdicted by a pirate or a mission attacker, the interdiction should automatically be considered a hostile action and not make the CMDR that was interdicted wait for a scan!

I agree with you completely. With respect to interdictions, the interdicting ship appears red on your radar during the interdiction indicating hostile but once the interdiction succeeds it is yellow again which make absolutely no sense. You now have to scan it before you can shoot at it . Either intentional troll mechanic or poor programming in my opinion.

 

[Stealthie]

Truly I have some sympathy with what you are asking for / suggesting, but lets bring it back to the topic of this thread. A player (accidentally) shot a ship they shouldn't have. Wasn't even aiming at it or targeting it. But they think it's wrong that they got a slap on the wrist. I don't.

I don't think anybody thinks that's wrong, do they?

About the only aspect of that scenario that's open for criticism (IMO) is the nature of the response that occurs as a result.

I mean, you've got outlaws spacing clean ships while SysSec cruise around, apparently oblivious, and all the other ships mind their own business yet if you tag a clean ship then suddenly everything turns red and you've got SysSec and all the other ships coming after you.

Might be more appropriate if, after a friendly-fire incident, you get the fine, the 8-minute bounty and a message saying you've got 30 seconds to leave the area and then SysSec become hostile.

 

[GunnerBill]

- anything starts shooting you (if you are clear), you can defend yourself even without scanning them

Provided ‘Report Crimes’ is on